Talk:Hell's Kitchen (restaurant)

Awards section

Are any of these awards noteworthy? They look to me like run-of-the-mill restaurant callouts. Valereee (talk) 15:02, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I've removed, happy to discuss! Valereee (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Recognition section

This is bloated. I'm proposing whittling it to the most important reviewers. Valereee (talk) 15:03, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I've whittled, happy to discuss! Valereee (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Restaurant name on the building

Gordon Ramsay has a big ego. He names many of his restaurants after himself: Restaurant Gordon Ramsay, Petrus by Gordon Ramsay, Restaurant 1890 by Gordon Ramsay, The River by Gordon Ramsay, Gordon Ramsay Bar & Grill, Gordon Ramsay Pub & Grill, Gordon Ramsay Steak, Gordon Ramsay Burger, Gordon Ramsay Fish & Chips, London House Gordon Ramsay, Gordon Ramsay Plane Food, Gordon Ramsay Food Market, Le Pressoir d'Argent Gordon Ramsay, Lucky Cat by Gordon Ramsay, and the double-whammy: Ramsay's Kitchen by Gordon Ramsay.

The | actual name on the building for the restaurant that this article talks about, calls it "Gordon Ramsay Hell's Kitchen"

Why doesn't the article say the complete name any more? It used to, but then it changed. The entire article (and its title) should show the full name of the restaurant. Canarsie83 (talk) 13:11, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Since there has been no objections, I've changed the name of the restaurant, throughout the article and on the article name itself, to Gordon Ramsay Hell's Kitchen. Canarsie83 (talk) 20:56, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Previous changes, which you saw, were an objection. Please ping me when discussing stuff I've objected to when you start a new section. It's not easy to see it otherwise. Valereee (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't know what "ping me" involves.

I wrote this section a week ago. You created a new section here today, and had the opportunity to read my section and respond, well within the time before I responded to your new section. And then I mentioned this section in my reply to your new section, and you still hadn't responded or objected. You only talked about it when I was already making the change. As I said, it was simply bad timing.

But if you want me to mention/tag you (or whoever else is involved) whenever I might do this in the future, then I will do that. Thanks for teaching me to do that. Canarsie83 (talk) 21:37, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I'd been travelling for ten days, didn't see that there'd been a new section here. For many of us, with thousands of pages on our watchlists, keeping up can be difficult, especially when there's something going on IRL. You can learn about pings at WP:PING. It's considered best practices to ping people when you discuss something they might be interested in, wherever that is, in new sections. (People can subscribe to sections, so we don't generally ping when replying in a section the person has already posted in.) Valereee (talk) 22:12, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

removal of image

@Canarsie83, no cited source for a photograph? I'm not sure what that means. Valereee (talk) 17:31, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

In the "Television show tie-ins" section there was a photograph of a cocktail glass, the caption read: "Notes From Gordon" cocktail, with various insults from Ramsay

There is nothing in the image to show insults. There's nothing in the image to show the drink has anything to do with the article. It's why I removed it.

Have you watched the TV show "Hell's Kitchen"? They never talk about cocktails on there for dinner service. They may show some wine being poured, but cocktails aren't part of the menu on the show.

In the section for Television show tie-ins, there are five citations. Only the first one (13, from Eater San Diego) mentions this cocktail as being in the restaurant, and the source describes it as "the Notes from Gordon, which combines gin, green tea, lemongrass, peach, and lemon and is garnished with a flag inscribed with a snarky quote from Ramsay himself." Nothing says the snarky quote is from the television show. So the cited sources do not support the cocktail's image being part of this article.

At the same time, both of the photographs of the restaurant building - if you click on them to zoom in - show that the full name on the building is "Gordon Ramsay Hell's Kitchen" as described in the talk section above. So why does this article only call the restaurant "Hell's Kitchen" instead of the full name? The person who created this article should have called it "Gordon Ramsay Hell's Kitchen (restaurant)"; I expect they used the short name because they wanted it to tie in better with the TV show. But that's not the name on the building.

Are we okay with talking about cocktails not in the TV show, but not talking about the actual full name of the restaurant? Can't the article name be changed? Canarsie83 (talk) 19:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I've added content plus a source to support inclusion of the image. I don't think it's really necessary, but whatever. Valereee (talk) 20:45, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Re: full name. We would use what RS use, per WP:COMMONNAME. The fact Ramsay would love all of his restaurants to be called "Gordon Ramsay's (whatever)" doesn't mean we go along with that promotional decision. If RS are calling it Hell's Kitchen most of the time, that's what we'd call it too. Valereee (talk) 20:51, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

That response was bad timing, since I actually just made the change to Gordon Ramsay Hell's Kitchen. Reliable sources (newspaper articles, reviews like Gayot) call it the name on the building: Gordon Ramsay Hell's Kitchen. Canarsie83 (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I think it's overpromotional. I think we should move it back, leaving a redirect. Valereee (talk) 21:09, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I think it's overpromotional.

I don't. I think it's just the complete name on the building.

How can we find out what other people think, and get other opinions, so we can reach a consensus? Instead of just two people with different (but both possibly valid) viewpoints? Canarsie83 (talk) 21:22, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

The complete name on the building isn't really important. It's what people generally call it that's important, which is what COMMONNAME is referring to. I don't think anyone is saying to their spouse, "Hey! Let's get a reservation at Gordon Ramsay Hell's Kitchen tonight!" :) They're saying Hell's Kitchen. It's the common name, which is what WP generally uses. Unless reviewers are typically using the full name on every mention, rather than simply the title and/or first mention, it's not evidence that's the common name. Gordon Ramsay clearly wants his name mentioned as often as possible everywhere, which is what makes me think it's overpromotional.

You can start a Wikipedia:Request for comment at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (companies). Valereee (talk) 21:37, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I've just done that. I think I've represented your side of the debate fairly, but of course feel free to comment however you would like to. Canarsie83 (talk) 22:20, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

The section title isn't neutral: it's making an argument. I won't complain, but FFR, someone will absolutely complain about that kind of thing. Valereee (talk) 22:34, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry. It seemed neutral to me. I originally called it "Should we use the name on the bulding?," but thought it was too wordy. Canarsie83 (talk) 22:57, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

FWIW, IMO better might be "Gordon Ramsay Hell's Kitchen vs. Hell's Kitchen". "Should we use the name on the building" has the same problem as "The name on the building". Both imply that's important, which I'm arguing it isn't, so not neutral. No worries, we've got a very steep learning curve here. I don't think you've intentionally tried to make it non-neutral. :) Valereee (talk) 23:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I just looked at the Gayot review for Gordon Ramsay Hell's Kitchen (they use the full name), and they would be a good source to cite for Notes From Gordon. As I checked it to see how they named the restaurant, I saw that their review actually describes that cocktail the way you describe it.

Why wouldn't it be necessary? I don't understand. Don't standards apply everywhere, across Wikipedia? Canarsie83 (talk) 21:03, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

We don't generally require a RS for a noncontroversial image. The fact you've questioned it makes it not noncontroversial, so I found a source. Valereee (talk) 21:10, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Washington DC

Two weeks ago Dmford13 added "and a Washington, D.C. location also opening in 2022." I just read an Eater DC article about the opening of the Gordon Ramsay Fish & Chips in that city at The Wharf area, which says the nearby Gordon Ramsay Hell's Kitchen restaurant is delayed until next year:

"Wharf diners will have to wait a little longer to book a seat at Hell’s Kitchen, Ramsay’s flashy D.C. flagship currently coming together in a two-story building perched on the Potomac River. The surf-and-turf tribute to the expletive-dropping chef’s hit Hell’s Kitchen TV show on Fox — and first on the East Coast — moved its original debut date from fall to winter 2023."

I don't know how accurate this is (the source I quote is wrong about GRHK in DC being "first on the East Coast" since Atlantic City is already open, so how reliable is the rest of it?). It's also ambiguous about what "winter 2023" means (they likely mean January/February 2023, but who's to say they don't intend it to mean December 2023?).

Should we update the year in this Wikipedia article, or just wait and see what else others might say? I've had some personal issues which keep me from doing very much on Wikipedia lately. So I'll leave this up to you, Dmford13, and to anyone else interested. Canarsie83 (talk) 11:56, 1 November 2022 (UTC)