Talk:Henry Conwell

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MOS issues, etc

Per MOS:JOBTITLES titles such as 'pope' and 'vicar general' are generally in lowercase, when not referring to a specific person. Also there seems to be some confusion with the Vatican (a sovereign nation) with the Holy See (the administration of the Catholic Church). Elizium23 (talk) 14:03, 21 April 2020 (UTC) @Amakuru: a quote from Griffin p. 163:

When the appointment was before the Propaganda Fide at Rome, Cardinal Consalvi wrote to them that it was his wish that Dr. Curtis be appointed. An inquiry was then made whether Cardinal Consalvi expressed that wish as Secretary of State to His Holiness, the Pope, or as a member of the Propaganda? He replied: As a member of the Propaganda."

The Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples (Latin: Congregatio pro Gentium Evangelizatione) is a congregation of the Roman Curia of the Catholic Church in Rome

The Roman Curia comprises the administrative institutions of the Holy See and the central body through which the affairs of the Catholic Church are conducted. Elizium23 (talk) 14:41, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

@Elizium23: on the job title question, the instances you changed seem to be mostly instances where a capital letter is permitted by MOS:JOBTITLES. For example in the sentence "After the Pope declined to appoint him Archbishop of Armagh, the diocese in which he served as Vicar General, he was instead installed as the second Bishop of Philadelphia in 1819", the "Achbishop of Armagh" is the name of a title so is capitalised. Similarly with "Vicar General" and "Bishop of Philadelphia". "After the Pope" is capitalised because it's a placeholder for a specific pope, not popes in general, which is covered at MOS:JOTBITLES with the line "When a title is used to refer to a specific person as a substitute for their name during their time in office, e.g., the Queen, not the queen (referring to Elizabeth II)". Regarding Vatican hierarchy or Holy See, I think it's clear that Vatican hierarchy refers to the leadership of the Catholic Church, and that's what it means in common parlance. Holy See seems to me to bring less clarity, but in any case I don't think it's correct to change it from the featured version one day before the article goes up for TFA, for what is not a clear error. @Coemgenus: do you have any thoughts on this?  — Amakuru (talk) 14:56, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Ridiculous - a correct term leads to less clarity than a slang metonym??? Elizium23 (talk) 15:00, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

In my view, metonyms are rarely considered slang – setting aside the use of the word "hierarchy", saying "the Vatican" is very common when referring to the central administration of the church, on Wikipedia, in the media or otherwise. As an example, the George Pell article includes phrases such as "reform of the Vatican bureaucracy", "to all Vatican offices" and "shift in Vatican thinking". In these cases, the use of something else like "Holy See" in place of "Vatican" would be unwieldy and strangely worded. Regarding the use of "Vatican hierarchy" in this article, an advantage of this wording is that it's more easily understandable for readers who might not know what "Holy See" represents in this case, and places due emphasis on the "hierarchy" aspect. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 17:35, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

That's odd, I thought we went by what reliable sources say. Elizium23 (talk) 17:40, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

We do. Here are some examples:

• BBC News: Vatican opens archives of Holocaust-era Pope Pius XII
• The New York Times: China and Vatican Reach Deal on Appointment of Bishops
• PBS NewsHour: Pope names 1st woman to Vatican’s top management position

I could certainly provide many more examples, but these illustrate the point that "Vatican" is a perfectly acceptable metonym to use, even in formal circumstances. Could "Holy See" be substituted in any of these instances? Yes, but that wouldn't result in as natural a wording – that's just how language works; we like to find alternative, simpler phrasings in everyday speech, formal or otherwise. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 18:00, 21 April 2020 (UTC)