Talk:Henuttawy (priestess)

Merge?

I created an article titled Henut Taui, about the so-called "cocaine mummy". This was the spelling used in the trans-oceanic article, and is also used in some literature. However, after finding this article, it makes me wonder whether these are the same people. The big thing that would indicate they are not, despite many similarities, is that this article claims she was only known from a few representations, whereas obviously the mummy exists for "Henut Taui".

So, long story short, I'm not sure whether these articles should be merged or not. - Dunc0029 (talk) 19:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello @Dunc0029, I've just read this discussion. Never heard of a "cocaine mummy" before but I don't think it's the same of this Henuttawy: up to seven different Henuttawys (or Henuttaui, it's the same) are known for the 21st Dynasty. A name of a relative of this cocaine mummy would be of great help in the identification. Khruner (talk) 11:27, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE - Premising that I'm only interested to find out which Henuttawy can refers to the article, I managed to find Balabanova's original paper. She analyzed nine mummies, not only one - seven heads, an incomplete male and a complete female (maybe the latter was Henut Taui?, but no personal names for those mummies are given) - dating from the Third Intermediate Period to the Roman period, she found traces of both the alkaloids on all nine mummies.
Thus, the only report of the priestess' name is only that "Curse of the Cocaine Mummies" documentary (possibly thee same of the "Mistery of the Cocaine Mummies" copiously quoted by pseudoarchaeology sites?), which I can't check out. So, for me, merging is impossible; maybe Henut Taui should be deleted due to the fact that - if the name was real - she was only one of nine cocaine mummies and hence it should be considered a sort of "lack of real notoriety"? I see that Dougweller was an active contributor of the original trans-oceanic article. Any suggestions? Khruner (talk) 11:28, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Khruner, User:Dunc0029, Henut Taui is the name used by German Egyptologists. I'm trying to sort this out as there is some confusion about her parentage. This article says her father was Pinedjem but [1]. I've asked about this. Dougweller (talk) 19:03, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

@Dougweller You mean princess Henuttawy B but for her my sources mention a relief and a tomb (but not a mummy). As far as I can see, German speakers intend Henuttaui or Henut-Taui the same way English speakers intend Henuttawy, so this does not refer to a single person, but to a larger number, at least 7 for this period according to Kenneth Kitchen although en.wiki only have an article for 3 of them. I've found that one of these is known only for her mummy, but no other informations are provided. For me, the only way to solve this is to find the sources of the documentary, but it does not seem easy. Khruner (talk) 09:45, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry User:Khruner, of course. We have 4 listed at Henuttawy which have articles, one that doesn't. I've added the 'B'. Do German Egyptologists use something other than letters to distinguish them? None of these have articles at de.Wiki. Dougweller (talk) 10:44, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes Dougweller, usually de.wiki is quite comprehensive when talking about Ancient Egypt but this time, about Henuttawy is a total gap. I don't know how Germans distinguish the Henuttawys; sadly I haven't any German work about this period, but the letters almost certainly have been introduced by Kitchen. However, I slightly reshaped the Henuttawy article (although omitting 2: a simple commoner, and an almost certainly misreaded "Hrere", wife of Piankh); among all these, it seems that the only attested mummies are those of Duathathor-Henuttawy and Henuttawy E. The latter is IMO the best candidate for the cocaine mummy (if indeed her name was Henuttawy), but I can't prove it and sadly I'm not Egyptologist... Khruner (talk) 12:56, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

And, User:Khruner, I've now been told by someone that he knows that "the mummy of the Queen Henut Taui is in the Egyptian museum in Cairo (from 21 dynasty ) she is the wife of Bay-Nejem. So, the other in Munich is not to the Queen." However, our Henut Taui is described as a priestess in the article. Dougweller (talk) 18:02, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, those are useful informations, but there is something strange about that, Dougweller. The person who spoke to you says that the cocaine mummy: belonged to a Queen, is now in Cairo, and is datable to the 21st Dynasty. If she was a queen, Bay-Nejem should be a king; I never heard of this name before, but the known royal name which is most similar is Pa-Nedjem (Panedjem = Pinedjem (I)) of which Bay-Nejem could be a misreading? Thus the final result is Duathathor-Henuttawy (her mummy here), and maybe the person indeed meant that. About our mummy, too bad I knew this thing late, because I was in the Munich Egyptian Museum few months ago. I don't know, actually I'd like to try finding something more about Henuttawy E... Khruner (talk) 19:29, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Khruner I've been pointed to Who's Who in Ancient Egypt by Michael Rice "Henuttawy, Priestess and Temple Singer, Twenty-First Dynasty, New Kingdom, c. 1000 BC. A singer in the Temple of Amun at Thebes, Henuttawy was buried in the necropolis of Deir el-Bahri. A suggestion that her mummy, now in Munich, contains traces of substances such as cocaine and tobacco, has been received with surprise by Egyptologists and historians of chemistry alike. G.Daressy, ASAE 8:13. PM I.2:639. C.El Mahdy, Mummies, Myth and Magic, London, 1989:22, 37. Staatliche Sammlung Ägyptischer Kunst," and told "It suggests that the coke-HT has no parentage. It has references to ASAE 8:13 and PM I.2:639 which both are online. E.g. http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/topbib/pdf/pm1-2.pdf But not much help - you would need to get the publication of the coffin texts listed by PM to see if there's any parentage. But I do get the impression it is a different one that the ones in wiki that have a royal father or husband." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 21:06, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Well done Dougweller, now we know some more about our mummy. I can't reach the source mentioned in PM (William Gell MSS etc) but scanning Daressy (ASAE 8, p. 13; 19) I've found both our Henuttawy (A 136) and Kitchen's Henuttawy E (A 64): this means that they were two distinct persons and HT E could be finally dropped; this also means that is very likely that our HT is not mentioned by Kitchen, and that probably the article cannot be merged with anyone of the other HT on en.wiki.
But I see a problem, since both Daressy and PM talks about the coffin, not the mummy. Furthermore, in 1907 Daressy claimed that our HT's coffin was in the geografical museum of Lisbon (p. 19), but more recently PM claims that the coffin was in Munich. Maybe I misreaded something since I can't read french, but what does it means? Maybe the mummy was given by Ludwig of Bavaria to the Munich museum, and later the coffin was reunited with the body, moving from Lisbon to Munich? Khruner (talk) 11:19, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Khruner Not sure what you mean by dropping HT E. As for HT's coffin, see [2] which is in Portuguese. But it says "Henut Taui-A was represented in the collective tomb at Deir el-Bahari (a cliff south of the funerary temple of Mentuhotep II) known as' hideout real 'or' first hideout '(' cachette royale '), with a sarcophagus, which today is preserved in the Egyptian Museum of Cairo". Dougweller (talk) 11:46, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Dougweller I considered Henuttawy E (see Henuttawy) as the best candidate to be our cocaine mummy until I discovered that the Henuttawys reported by Daressy were two (Henuttawy E = A 64, while coca-Henuttawy = A 136), for this reason Henuttawy E could be dropped. As for your article, it seems a work about Henuttawy A (Duathathor-Henuttawy), and the royal cachette of Deir el-Bahari is DB320 where her coffin and mummy were found; I was hopeful when I found inside it the name of almost certainly the same museum mentioned by Daressy, but it reports only that "unfortunately, among the >100 funerary statuettes of the 21st Dynasty existing in Portugal (mainly at the Museu Nacional de Arqueologia e na Sociedade de Geografia de Lisboa) no one refers to Henuttawy A." (p. 70).
The point is: as far as I can see, coca-Henuttawy is different from any other Henuttawy reported on en.wiki, and now we gathered some few reliable sources about her (from Rice back to PM back to Daressy) and we even know her name in hieroglyphs (from Daressy). I think we can put those infos in the article and a link in the Henuttawy page, then we can continue from where we arrived, if we find something new. It's likely that I will come back to Munich this autumn, so if the mummy/coffin is indeed exhibited, I will take a picture and copy the caption. Khruner (talk) 13:50, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Khruner - I'll leave the editing to you as you seem to have a better grasp on this than I do. Good luck if you go to Munich! Dougweller (talk) 14:14, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to you for your efforts in finding out about our Henuttawy, Dougweller, I'll fix the article within the weekend. See you around! Khruner (talk) 14:26, 13 June 2014 (UTC)