Talk:Heriot-Watt University

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Former good article nomineeHeriot-Watt University was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 13, 2011Good article nomineeNot listed

Unsupported criticism[edit]

I removed the following paragraphs from the article because there are not supported by any references.

Heriot-Watt University is well known because of the high quality teaching in languages (French, Spanish and German mainly) and engineering and sciences (Petroleum engineering courses, for example).
Heriot watts computer science department however leavs a lot to be desired. whereas other universities take the approch of allowing students to sellect a particular field Heriot watt tries to teach a bit of everything. this results in many students reaching there final year with no specialist knowledge withing a particular field meaning that it is much harder for them to find a suitible job in the long run.

See Wikipedia:Verifiability for why we need references. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 04:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

University ratings[edit]

(I'm posting this to all articles on UK universities as so far discussion hasn't really taken off on Wikipedia:WikiProject Universities.)

There needs to be a broader convention about which university rankings to include in articles. Currently it seems most pages are listing primarily those that show the institution at its best (or worst in a few cases). See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities#University ratings. Timrollpickering 22:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Templates[edit]

The UK wide universities template contains all the information in the Scottish universities template and more. There isn't any need to use the latter as well when the information it contains is identical to the Scotland field in the UK template. Timrollpickering 21:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Any information on the university's endowment? This is typically included on the template. Llamabr (talk) 15:48, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notable Alumni[edit]

Please see : http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heriot-Watt_University&diff=191925423&oldid=190571962 Yet again someone has removed content without commenting why. This is really starting to p&8$ me off. I made the original commit putting this information in, I updated the links as they got outdated. So, lets just settle this. Is Lydia Campbell a notable alumna or not? She invented soya cheese, which I think is notable, and the content is encyclopedic and it's not original research. So the only thing I can think people remove it for is a. vandalism or b. they don't think it's notable. If it's b. then FINE but please SAY SO IN YOUR COMMENT. Since I don't know why it was removed (again!) I want to add it back but I'm at risk of the three edits rule or whatever it is.

So can I have your input please. Was removing it vandalism, or was it because the alumna is not notable enough? Thank you for your time. Kymara (talk) 14:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lydia Campbell is not an alumnus of the University. Does that answer your slightly hysterical question? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.196.243 (talk) 20:28, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nandeep Bamrah was also a notable alumni on that page Kymara (talk). I think that finishing a MBA at 17 is also encyclopedic. Robert HW (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikipedia7007 (talk • contribs) 02:07, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Would you consider Eric Henry Liddell (famous Scottish international rugby player, Olympic 400 meter champion, and missionary to China) a notable alumni? He did not graduate from Heriot-Watt, but he did attend school there (studying chemistry) from 1920-1921 before transferring to the University of Edinburgh. I am not sure if the term alumni implies that the individual graduated from Heriot-Watt, or whether simply being a former student is enough to qualify an individual as an alumni (in which case, Eric Liddell should be added to the list). Tcmahfood (talk) 02:58, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Edit Request[edit]

{{Request edit}}

Hi,

I currently work for Heriot-Watt University in a digital communications role, and would like to update the institution's page to improve its sourcing, make its structure more coherent and add more independently verifiable information. I've written a draft article at User:Robert HW/draft, but in accordance with WP:SCOIC will not publish it or make any edits to Heriot-Watt related pages myself- rather, I will leave it up to the community to decide how much of it is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia.

If you want to talk to me directly, leave me a message at my talk page- I'll try and contact you as soon as I can.

Thanks,

Robert HW (talk) 11:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Robert, your draft is superior in every way except you left out some of the references for the notable alumni. I'm replacing your version with those. Thanks for all the effort you put in to this. 67.6.163.68 (talk) 13:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Independence of sources[edit]

Only three of the first twelve sources aren't independent. Thumperward, which section(s) are you concerned about in particular? 67.6.163.68 (talk) 05:50, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's certainly not how I'd read the first twelve sources. References #1, #3 and #11 are hosted on hw.ac.uk, yes, but #2, #9 and #10 are simply links to records filed by HW (and thus authored by the subject) while #4 and #6 are simply direct links to the root of some organisation's website (and when used to reference material based on a particular body, as they are, are primary to that body). Additionally, #4 is broken (it appears to have been an attempt to link to the internal state of a website which doesn't use GET methods to serve information and thus doesn't have permalinks to results). And of course when one looks at the references after #12, they're almost all direct HW web links. So yes, the article certainly needs additional secondary citations. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:35, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the case of the NASTE and GASHE links, my understanding was that material published on a third-party site was reliable where that organisation had independent oversight over what it published: NAHSTE's project page implies ownership over the material, and adherence to international archival standards while doing so. It was my genuine belief while writing my draft article that these sites were far enough removed from the subject to qualify as reliable sources- however, I do appreciate that having a conflict of interest may have affected my judgement on the issue. I should also probably say that the data from reference #4 (if it worked) is independent of the university, being compiled from a number of independent assessors.

Robert HW (talk) 13:08, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Simply being hosted on a third-party site doesn't make a source secondary: my understanding is that these are public records. Ideally, we would like secondary analysis of these documents, rather than reading the primary sources and drawing our own conclusions from them. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:51, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Research university"[edit]

I've removed the reference to HW as a research university. As far as I can tell, this is original research. In the US, a research university is a status given by the Carnegie foundation to very top universities in which research funding is concentrated. This formal status doesn't exist in the UK, although the 25 Russell Group universities are its obvious analogy: most PhDs are issued by, and two-thirds of significant academic research happens there.

HW certainly doesn't get into that, or the top 20 UK universities in which research funding is concentrated. It has consistently ranked outside the top 40 in the UK. It produces 0.6% of the UK's 5 and 4 star rated research - not terrible, but rather less than a university with 21,000 students might be expected to produce. In terms of the amount of quality research produced by each research-active person entered in the last RAE, HW doesn't get into the top 50, ranking some way below London South Bank University and the University of East London. It's clearly not the case that HW is, in comparison with other UK universities, carachterised by especially high levels of research. --Duncan (talk) 09:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rankings omission[edit]

The rankings and achievements section of this article is currently selectively showing the best results possible for the institute. The major general rankings should be included, as this isn't a pamphlet for the university but a factual encyclopaedic article. I suggest inclusion of:

  • 2013 QS World rankings #369
  • 2014 Guardian UK University rankings #18

Any objections? Jebus989✰ 23:04, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Students' Association at Heriot-Watt is a student-led organisation headed by individuals elected from the student population[edit]

This is flowery and meaningless.

Who else would lead a Students' Association apart from the students? (Yes, OK, in a democratic-deficient society it might be different, but we're talking here about Scotland.)

"individuals elected from the student population"? So where else would "individuals" conceiveably be elected from, apart from the "student population"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.164.31.185 (talk) 13:19, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose somewhere deficient in democracy, like many universities, might appoint professors, external councillors of some political leaning or other, and the Uni's management. To control the students and make sure everything is flowing smoothly for those up top. It's admirable that the Students' Union is actually run and staffed entirely by students. Keep your independence and try not to let the Group B individuals police everything. There've been some right shenanigans, and hilarious fuckups, within student unions around the country (UK not just Scotland).
Me, I'm just upset they haven't mention the nickname of the place. "Hairy Twat University".
84.70.145.70 (talk) 04:12, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Masters in Strategic Project Management (European) was nominated for merge[edit]

Masters in Strategic Project Management (European) was nominated for merge with Heriot-Watt University. I think they should not merge since the Erasmus Mundus programs were running individually.If that is not the case, then the aforementioned page should merge with Umea University and Politecnico di Milano too. There are already other pages with Erasmus Mundus programs, as e.g. the International Master of Science in Rural Developmentand the only difference between them and this one is that the MSPME had a fixed structure. Additionally, the Masters in Strategic Project Management (European) was a unique program; you were getting three master degrees in 2 years and I think it would be good to be explained somewhere on internet why, after the end of funding of all of the Erasmus Mundus programs. Finally in a previous descusion in the Talk:Erasmus Mundus happened on April 2008 decided " to have a separation of the specific masters description from the Erasmus Mundus page.". Anyone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nkalyvio (talk • contribs) 00:50, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 May 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. General consensus against use of the en-dash in this context, owing primarily to use by the university and similarities to other names such as Wikes-Barre. (non-admin closure) Turnagra (talk) 07:45, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Heriot-Watt University → Heriot–Watt University – Proper style per MOS:DASH. fuzzy510 (talk) 12:15, 8 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:58, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose: Quote from MOS:ENBETWEEN - Generally, use a hyphen in compounded proper names of single entities. YorkshireExpat (talk) 12:41, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Further down, though: "Use an en dash for the names of two or more entities in an attributive compound." The university itself is not just called "Heriot-Watt." fuzzy510 (talk) 12:53, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Fuzzy510 hmm, not sure how that differs from Wilkes-Barre tbh, but happy to be proven wrong. Is the city attributed to the two people? Also, there may be a WP:COMMONNAME argument. In the UK people tend to refer to it simply as Heriot-Watt, although I wouldn't support renaming the article in that way. It may also be worth pointing out the University itself clearly uses a hyphen. In other words I retain my previous stance (for now). YorkshireExpat (talk) 15:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The difference is that Wilkes-Barre is the entire name of the entity. In the case of the university, Heriot–Watt University is the full name, with "University" included. See, as an example, Lenoir–Rhyne University or Randolph–Macon College. Both of those get endashes because the dashed portion is part of a larger name. fuzzy510 (talk) 15:28, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Still not convinced. I'm just going to cite WP:IAR and we'll see what others say :). YorkshireExpat (talk) 15:37, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    LOL, that works! fuzzy510 (talk) 15:56, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Hilarious to find this exists. Can we apply IAR on IAR though xD ? >>> Extorc.talk 19:54, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The more I read the MOS the more I think this is incorrect. Generally, use a hyphen in compounded proper names of single entities. Heriot-Watt University is a single entity. It isn't compound of two entities. It's the same argument as Wilkes-Barre. YorkshireExpat (talk) 19:44, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - based on the fact that the university itself uses the hyphen, and the dash just looks wrong to me! Laterthanyouthink (talk) 23:14, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: The name is Heriot-Watt University with a hyphen. It is a single (not merged) institution named after George Heriot and James Watt. It's Royal Charter uses the hyphen and readers will search for it using the hyphen. Taylornk (talk) 08:22, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as the university uses the hyphen and the hyphen is used in the sources provided. Suonii180 (talk) 18:10, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I feel like everybody here is ignoring the style guide and moving to "the university uses the hyphen." Of course the university uses the hyphen, endashes are not particularly commonplace in common text. There are also numerous articles which are properly titled per the style guide with an endash where the general usage is with a hyphen. I don't disagree that the endash is not the most common usage in the outside world, but unless anybody wants to make a run at changing the MOS, none of these opposing arguments matter, quite frankly. fuzzy510 (talk) 18:31, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:IAR and WP:5P5! I don't think that anyone is saying that the rules don't matter, but read the bit in the grey box at the top of WP:MOS, and you are doing the right thing discussing it here, thanks for that!
I think it's possible that we are advocating an 'occasional exception' (although I'm still not convinced it's against the rules as it is). Frankly, it just looks a bit weird with the endash. YorkshireExpat (talk) 19:32, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per fuzzy510. Here the two names are used as an attributive compound adjective. WP:ENDASH says "Use an en dash for the names of two or more entities in an attributive compound. With a dash, this would look like a hyphenated surname. I don't think it is very helpful to survey sources on such matters, since most sources do not make a distinction between a dash and a hyphen. Wikipedia does, and we should follow our own style guide here. The provided examples of Lenoir–Rhyne University and Randolph–Macon College are good ones, and this should be consistent with those. See also Talk:Epstein–Barr virus/Archive 2#Requested move. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – it's not the hyphenated name of one person, but the joined names of two parallel persons. The dash is for that distinction (in styles such as ours that use the dash that way). Dicklyon (talk) 20:49, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Wilkes-Barre is not a name of one person, it's joined names of two persons. What's the difference? YorkshireExpat (talk) 19:45, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    FWIW, quoting myself from Talk:Epstein–Barr virus/Archive 2#Requested move: There is a difference between "McGraw-Hill" or "Wilkes-Barre", for which the hyphenated strings are used "substantively (as a noun: she is a 34-year-old)", and "Epstein–Barr virus" or "Black–Scholes equation" or similar uses for which the dashed string is used "attributively (adjectives before the nouns they qualify: a light-blue handbag, a 34-year-old woman)". (Template quotes here are quotes from MOS:HYPHEN.) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 12:30, 12 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @BarrelProof. Ok, let me put it differently. If Wilkes-Barre was called 'Wilkes-Barre City', or McGraw-Hill was called 'McGraw-Hill Publishing', would you advocate for an endash in either case? YorkshireExpat (talk) 16:23, 12 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that's a more difficult question. If those were the only topics using those name pairs, then yes, I think I would, for both. I think that would make those situations the same as this one. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 13:40, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I did a quick news search and couldn't find any sources using the endash. Since both primary and secondary sources use the hyphen, so should we.Tammbecktalk 15:50, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:TITLETM and MOS:TM, which apply here as this university name counts as (bolding mine) names and phrases used to identify individuals, movements, groups, forums, projects, events, and other non-commercial entities and their output. MOS:TM goes on to advise that we do not "correct" the spelling, punctuation, diacritics, or grammar of trademarks to be different from anything found in reliable sources—the name should be recognizable as referring to the topic. The hyphen is regularly used in reliable sources, and thus we should also follow suit and keep the hyphen. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:45, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Here is an article which observes a distinction between dashes and hyphens (e.g. "metal–ligand complex", "metal-particle free ink") and which mentions the university: [1]. It uses "Heriot-Watt University". Of course, I only picked the first such article I could find and access, and it's contestable how representative it is. But the point is, even if we accept that it's not very useful to consider the many sources which don't distinguish dashes and hyphens at all, surely it isn't a license to also ignore the sources that do distinguish. Separately, I do find YorkshireExpat's hypothetical about Wilkes-Barre vs. "Wilkes-Barre City" somewhat concerning, and it's not so hypothetical since there is Wilkes-Barre Township, Luzerne County, Pennsylvania. Adumbrativus (talk) 18:25, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Adumbrativus good spot! I think there is some confusion here about the words 'single entities'. The university is a single entity, as are both Wilkes-Barre and Wilkes-Barre Township. The Wilkes-Barre Variation on the other hand.... YorkshireExpat (talk) 20:15, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the single-entity concept should be interpreted as within the context of substantive use. "Wilkes-Barre" (by itself rather than as a modifier of something else) is substantive use. "Heriot-Watt University" has attributive use of "Heriot-Watt" within a longer name. So does the "Wilkes-Barre" in Wilkes-Barre Township, but that one's going to be a hard sell due to the prevalence of the more dominant "Wilkes-Barre". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 14:39, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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