Talk:Herod Philip

I question the whole existence of these three pages (Herod Philip [disambiguation], Herod Philip I and Herod Philip II). Philip the Tetrarch (born in c 26 BCE to Herod the Great and Cleopatra, of Jerusalem), the founder (or re-namer) of Caesarea Philippi, is (was) not known as Herod Philip. I can find no reference outside wikipedia to two Herod Philips. The use of references on these pages is cavalier.

• The first reference given in the page on Herod Philip I () refers to the son of Cleopatra and Herod the Great as Philip (born c. 26 BCE). Kokkinos says (p 223) “The stubborn existence of many theologians in referring to Herod III as ‘Herod Philip’ is without any value” (233), and again on p. 266, “No illusory Herod Philip ever existed”.
• The first external reference given (Philip the Tetrarch entry in historical sourcebook by Mahlon H. Smith) says “Secondary literature, such as Easton's Bible Dictionary, has often referred to him as "Herod Philip" although there is absolutely no evidence in primary sources that he mimicked his half-brother Antipas in claiming his father's name or was addressed as Herod by contemporaries. This is a convenient modern convention to distinguish him from other ancient Hellenized rulers with the same given name”, which casts doubt on the article it is supposed to support.

The pages on Herod Philip might be rephrased to say something like

See Philip the Tetrarch. The name Herod Philip appears to be a modern convenience. There is no evidence for contemporary uses of this nomenclature. It is an example of the great difficulty in establishing the relationships of various holders of the same name in the same area or family - especially in the Herodian dynasty (see

The Cambridge Ancient History Vol.10, says that Philip the Tetrarch, “unlike his brothers, did not use Herod as a dynastic name”, and refers to him throughout as Philip, or Philip the Tetrarch. The predecessor CAH had already stated that Philip’s half-brothers Archelaus and Antipas had adopted the name of Herod, "presumably" for a dynastic claim from Herod the Great.

In a further example of the difficulty of naming individuals at this timer, particularly in the family of Herod the Great, , Kokkinos goes to some length to point out that Philip the Tetrarch married NOT Salome, but her mother Herodias, who may have been known as Herodias-Salome. The Salome often claimed to be the wife of Philip was the daughter of this Herodias-Salome, born about 1 BCE, the fruit of her marriage to Herod III, and therefore step-daughter as well as niece of Philip the Tetrarch. Herodias-Salome had divorced Herod III, the son of Herod the Great by Mariamme II (therefore the half-brother of Philip); after Philip’s death in 33 CE, she married a third half-brother, Antipas, the son of Herod the Great by Malthace. (Herod the Great’s sister was also called Salome, born c. 50 BCE.) The ‘Salome’ who asked for Jon the Baptist’s head is not named in the Bible: Matthew (14, 6) says “the daughter of Herodias danced before them”, but does not name her; and Mark (6. 22) similarly calls her “the daughter of the said Herodias”. It appears possible, at least, that the cause of Herod’s rage against John is that the latter was preaching not against him, but against his wife - who had divorced his half-brother, and therefore was not a permissible wife for him.

I am submitting this to the talk pages rather than editing the pages fully, as this appears to me, an outsider to the field (minefield?) of nomenclature around the time of Christ, to be contentious ground. MacAuslan (talk) 12:33, 6 June 2010 (UTC)