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All-time lists need to be cleaned up

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There are several problems with the all-time lists, especially the co-minging of indoor marks with the outdoor marks. First, these are two separate events, indoor and outdoor, and it is Original Research to mix the two - World Athletics never co-mingles indoor and outdoor marks on their lists. There seems to be a conflation of the rule that allows RECORDS set indoors to also stand as overall World (i.e. "outdoor") records. Yes, but this does not mean "IAAF acceptance of indoor events as equivalent with outdoor events."

As far as I can tell the high jump is not necessarily an event that automatically accepts overall world records for marks set indoors, in contrast to the pole vault. Case in point: one of the very marks listed WAS considered a world record, Carlo Thranhardt's 2.42 set indoors in 1988, tying Patrick Sjoberg's record set outdoors the year before. But it was rescinded because of the assistance from the boards used in the run-ups. The point is, unless we can find some source that explicitly says marks set indoors in the high jump can automatically stand as overall records, that note has to go. Unless we know that all the listed marks were in fact done without boards. At the very least, Thranhardt has to go. But far better to eliminate ALL indoor marks.

In short, these top-25 lists have to be tossed out, made all outdoors, as many of the marks set indoors would likely not qualify for a world record if the run-ups were on boards, as in Thranhradt's case.

I further propose to dispense with the unwieldy lists with other performances not on the 25 athlete list, instead putting the top 25 performances in the the top 25 athlete lists.Canada Jack (talk) 16:16, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Here is a table I've drawn up which eliminates the indoor marks - which are often ineligible for World Record consideration and hence do not belong on the all-time list. And I've combined the all-time performers AND all-time performances, keeping each 25-deep (though in this event, obviously, there are many equal marks).
I propose we do this same approach for all events, as the current approach where lists of "also" marks are look like the fine print of some legal document and besides being incomprehensible, are a complete mess. Take a look at the pole vault page - there are something like 100 extra marks under the top 25 list.
All-time top 25 athletes, top 25 jumps, men's high jump
Ath.# Perf.# Mark Athlete Nationality Date Place Ref
1 1 2.45 m (8 ft 1⁄4 in) Javier Sotomayor Cuba 27 JUL 1993 Salamanca
2 2.44 m (8 ft 0 in) Sotomayor #2 29 JUL 1989 San Juan
3 2.43 m (7 ft 11+1⁄2 in) Sotomayor #3 08 SEP 1988 Salamanca
2 3 Mutaz Essa Barshim Qatar 05 SEP 2014 Brussels
3 5 2.42 m (7 ft 11+1⁄4 in) Patrik Sjöberg Sweden 30 JUN 1987 Stockholm
5 Sotomayor #3 05 JUN 1994 Seville
3 5 Bohdan Bondarenko Ukraine 14 JUN 2014 New York City
5 Barshim #2 14 JUN 2014 New York City
5 9 2.41 m (7 ft 10+3⁄4 in) Igor Paklin Soviet Union 04 SEP 1985 Kobe
9 Sotomayor #4 25 JUN 1994 Havana
9 Sotomator #5 15 JUL 1994 London
9 Bondarenko #2 04 JUL 2013 Lausanne
9 Bondarenko #3 15 AUG 2013 Moscow
9 Barshim #3 05 JUN 2014 Rome
9 Barshim #4 22 AUG 2014 Eberstadt
9 Barshim #5 30 MAY 2015 Eugene
6 17 2.40 m (7 ft 10+1⁄4 in) Rudolf Povarnitsyn Soviet Union 11 AUG 1985 Donetsk
17 Sotomayor #6 12 MAR 1989 Havana
17 Sjoberg #2 05 AUG 1989 Brussels
17 Sotomayor #7 13 AUG 1989 Bogota
6 17 Sorin Matei Romania 20 JUN 1990 Bratislava
17 Sotomayor #8 19 JUL 1991 Paris
6 17 Charles Austin USA 07 AUG 1991 Zurich
17 Sotomayor #9 22 MAY 1993 Havana
17 Sotomayor #10 23 JUL 1993 London
17 Sotomayor #11 22 AUG 1993 Stuttgart
17 Sotomayor #12 10 JUL 1994 Eberstadt
17 Sotomayor #13 18 JUL 1994 Nice
17 Sotomayor #14 29 JUL 1994 St. Petersburg
17 Sotomayor #15 11 SEP 1994 London
17 Sotomayor #16 25 MAR 1995 Mar del Plata
6 17 Vyacheslav Voronin Russia 05 AUG 2000 London
17 Barshim #6 01 JUN 2013 Eugene
6 17 Derek Drouin Canada 25 APR 2014 Des Moines
17 Bondarenko #4 11 MAY 2014 Tokyo
17 Bondarenko #5 03 JUL 2014 Lausanne
6 17 Andriy Protsenko Ukraine 03 JUL 2014 Lausanne
17 Bondarenko #6 18 JUL 2014 Monaco
17 Bondarenko #7 05 SEP 2014 Brussels
17 Barshim #7 11 JUN 2016 Opole
17 Barshim #8 20 AUG 2017 Birmingham
17 Barshim #9 27 AUG 2017 Eberstadt
17 Barshim #10 04 MAY 2018 Doha
17 Barshim #11 02 JUL 2018 Székesfehérvár
6 17 Danil Lysenko ANA 20 JUL 2018 Monaco
13 2.39 m (7 ft 10 in) Zhu Jianhua China 10 JUN 1984 Eberstadt
13 Hollis Conway USA 30 JUL 1989 Norman
13 Ivan Ukhov Russia 05 JUL 2012 Cheboksary
13 Gianmarco Tamberi Italy 15 JUL 2016 Monaco
17 2.38 m (7 ft 9+1⁄2 in) Hennadiy Avdyeyenko Soviet Union 06 SEP 1987 Rome
17 Sergey Malchenko Soviet Union 04 SEP 1988 Banská Bystrica
17 Dragutin Topić Yugoslavia 01 AUG 1993 Belgrade
17 Troy Kemp Bahamas 12 JUL 1995 Nice
17 Artur Partyka Poland 18 AUG 1996 Eberstadt
17 Jacques Freitag South Africa 05 MAR 2005 Oudtshoorn
17 Andriy Sokolovskyy Ukraine 08 JUL 2005 Rome
17 Andrey Silnov Russia 25 JUL 2008 London
17 Zhang Guowei| China 30 MAY 2015 Eugene
This is here for feedback, I will replace the current men's lists with this or a revised version of this list in a few days, and we can start working on doing the same for the women's list and for other pages. Canada Jack (talk) 20:31, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is a very good idea, though we should consider editing a table for indoor performances too.87.78.83.203 (talk) 12:22, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Purpose to delete the absolute top 25 when there is an indoor ranking.2A0A:A546:61B0:0:C5BD:AEB1:4903:99A7 (talk) 12:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indoor performances are not necessarily on par with outdoor performances, despite some unsourced claims to the contrary. World Athletics maintains separate all-time lists, these marks are not combined. The one time an indoor mark was considered for ratification was Thranhardt's 2.42 in 1988 which tied the outdoor mark. It was actually ratified as an all-around world record. But it was withdrawn in 1991 for the same reason many indoor performances likely could not be ratified - the temporary boards used in many indoor facilities give assistance.
I don't see why there can't be a separate all time indoor list - World Athletics maintains one as well. Canada Jack (talk) 15:22, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For the women's list, Mahuchikh jumped both 2.07 and 2.10 during the same competition, but the former has not been included in the list of all time bests. Is that intentional or a mistake? GimmyTomas (talk) 22:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just removed all the mixed marks - to repeat, Indoor marks are a SEPARATE event - many indoor marks would not qualify for outdoor records, so it is ORIGINAL RESEARCH to make a combined list. World Athletics maintains separate lists, so should we. As I previously stated, Thrahardt's ineligible 2.42 is a classic example. Someone is confusing the 2000 rule change about allowing marks set indoors as all-around "outdoor" records as some blanket approval - no, individual marks must be made under the set outdoor conditions. So many running records set indoors don't qualify as most indoor tracks are not 400 m. And in the high jump, it depends in the surface used - temporary boarding would render some marks ineligible, which is what happened with Thrahdardt's 2.42.

Please explain why indoor national records are ratified as absolute records, I do not see your argument.2A0A:A546:61B0:0:B120:88C3:9E49:B06D (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
They can't be. And it's amazing to me that this nonsense has been allowed to go on for so long. The page is a complete mess with editors running rampant with OR deciding whatever they consider to be "records." Here are some glaring examples: According to the page here as it stands, the German national record for men is 2.42 by Carlo Thranhradt, the American record is 2.40 held jointly by Hollis Conway and Charles Austin. The Thranhardt and Conway's marks, however, were set indoors. So, what does World Athletics consider to be the records for those countries as of 2009? The German men's record is indeed held by Carlo Thranhradt... but its the 2.37 he did in 1984, not the indoor mark he set in 1988 as per this page! The United States? One person holds the record, not two, and it's Charles Austin with his 2.40 set in 1991. It seems that wikiepdia has granted itself the discretion to declare national records! Because World Athletics does not grant Conway a national record!
Though the listing is from 2009 and needs updating, the Russian record was and should be 2.40, not 2.42. The Czech record is 2.36, jointly held by Jan Zvara and Jaroslav Baba, but wikipedia declares it to be 2.37, held by Baba, and set indoors.
This is the link to the IAAF/World Athletics handbook from 2009 which lists national records in men's high jump from page 503. https://web.archive.org/web/20110629134819/http://www.iaaf.org/mm/document/competitions/competition/05/15/63/20090706014834_httppostedfile_p345-688_11303.pdf And, just to be clear, the 2000 rule about indoor records was in effect by then.
Your argument doesn't work, the IAAF listed outdoor records on the occasion of Berlin 2009 because it had been an outdoor event. When you search for Carlo Thränhardt in their database [1] both marks 2.37 and 2.42 are signed with NR.89.0.167.174 (talk) 09:48, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To be absolutely clear, the "2000 rule" simply means that the presence of a roof - in itself - does not disqualify a mark from record consideration. But that does NOT mean that marks set indoors are exempt from the normal criteria in setting records - including standard 400m track, standard surfaces for field events, etc. As previously noted, that 2.42 Thranhardt mark was actually considered a world record... until the surface of the sunup was found to be non-standard, and the record was rescinded in 1991. Canada Jack (talk) 20:58, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In 2000, IAAF rule 260.18a (formerly 260.6a) was amended, so that "world records" (as opposed to "indoor world records") can be set in a facility "with or without roof". [2] (p. 546). As of June 2021, Carlo Thränhardt's 2.42 are still the absolute German national record [3].2A0A:A546:46E0:0:49A6:14DE:77DD:81DB (talk) 11:46, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A late response, but there is no such category as "absolute" world records. There are World records in Indoor world records ( the vast majority of "world records" being set outdoors, hence they are typically called "outdoor" world records. But as for Thranhardt's national record... it is 2.37, NOT 2.42, as listed on page 504 of the very source you cited. Canada Jack (talk) 18:59, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

National records still a mess

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It's time to clean up the mess that the National Records sections are. Marks set indoors are NOT eligible for National Records, which are determined by the respective national athletic committees. Any check on individual national pages shows that national records are set outdoors. Here is an example, the German records, as maintained by that nation's athletics federation. [4] The men's record there is 2.37, not the 2.42 indoor mark listed on this page. The women's record is 2.06, but not according to wikipedia, which apparently knows better than the German federation - it lists the indoor mark of 2.07 as the "national record."

How about the British men's record? According to the British national records page, it is 2.37. Wikipedia? Another ineligible indoor mark is listed as the "national record" - 2.38. Here is the link to the British page: [5]. Swedish women? On their page, the record is 2.06. Here, it's 2.08. [6]

I've brought this up before, and if no action is taken to clear up this mess, I propose we delete the sections until it is corrected.

This seems to stem from some editors conflating the World Athletics decision to allow marks set indoors to stand as World Records if all other criteria are met for regular records set outdoors. This does NOT mean individual nations now consider marks set indoors as eligible for national records! Canada Jack (talk) 00:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The WA source listed outdoor and indoor records seperately, so should we. Pelmeen10 (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Height differentials

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All time lists of athletes with the highest recorded jumps above their own height.[1][2]

The height of the athletes is not officially measured and therefore cannot be verified. The sources do not meet the Wikipedia standard, the first one is an archived copy of an athletics forum, the second a private website that has not been updated since July 2014.

Therefore, I propose to remove the table. Scratch line (talk) 17:02, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Scratch line, I notice this section is still linked to in a few pages, see insource:"high jump#Height differentials". Do you think it might be worth adding an explanation of the concept in this article, if not the table? --Habst (talk) 14:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ High Jump Differentials Archived July 17, 2011, at the Wayback Machine
  2. ^ 50 cm club - Alltime list in jump above own height Archived April 2, 2010, at the Wayback Machine

All-time list clarification needed

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Mahuchikh jumped 210 and 207 in the same competition, but 207 is not listed. It could be a mistake or the list could be listing only the best result, one, in the competition. I know there is statistic by IAAF of most time jumped over 2m and most time ending a competition with 2m jump for women. Either way a note explaining which is the case in the all time 25 jumps sections is a must. 37.205.97.243 (talk) 21:28, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

also, that note (considering best result by competition or best results overall) should be written in all multiple attempts disciplines (pole vault, discuss, hammer and javelin throw, shot put, long jump, triple jump)37.205.97.243 (talk) 21:32, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ancillary marks do not find their record according to WA. Would she have cleared that 2.07 as her final mark on a different occasion (competition) it would have found its record.
In general, only the final (best) mark in a single competition is considered by their statisticians. Penultimate6 (talk) 11:41, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New WR women also new OR?

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Isn't the newly set world record for women also a new olympic record since it occured during the 2024 Olympic Games in Paris? I noticed it had not been updated, but I lack the knowledge myself, although sources on the internet seem to indicate it's a new OR as well. GGFDiNapoli (talk) 08:09, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Record was set during Diamond League Meeting Paris, not Olympics.Montell 74 (talk) 10:50, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the new record is still pending ratification and has not been officially recognized. https://worldathletics.org/records/by-category/world-records 10:39, 17 September 2024 (EET) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.62.205.156 (talk)
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