Talk:Hindu terrorism/Archive 5

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Delhi Police allegations

Bharatiya29 Your recent edit shows you are simple violating WP:NPOV. This and this one, both shows your are using and adding your own opinion and version here. His father clearly said, "We did not join the AAP. Till 2012, I was in the BSP (Bahujan Samaj Party), after that my health deteriorated and I left politics. When Lok sabha election was about to take place, these people (AAP) came and we did it (wore the cap) for fun. This time, I even garlanded the BJP candidate. I’m not connected to politics".The Hindu Original video of his father and brother.The Quint His brother clearly said, they wear it because the is an act of respect to them by the party not any membership. There is no membership given. Now tell me in your reply through edit summary, you pointed this "I avoided it for being WP:UNDUE because then mentioning his father's association with the BSP" which is his past association but fail to mention the present association "This time, I even garlanded the BJP candidate.". This allegations are baseless and need not to be mentioned as the subject matter is about violence and there is no evidence if AAP or BJP is behind this. Dey subrata (talk) 22:55, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

I would like to bring Kautilya3, El C, MarnetteD, Staszek Lem, Vanamonde93 to this matter, what do you people think of it. Dey subrata (talk) 22:58, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Yup. The Delhi Police is hardly a reliable source. The allegation should be removed. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:07, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

First of all, this section itself should not be added until the scope of this article is clearly defined. As long as this section is present, any counter-claim disputing its association with "Hindu fundamentalism" has to be mentioned to present the whole picture. Now if you want to add a counter-counter-claim by the family members, feel free to do so. Anyway, just presenting the one side of the story is inappropriate. Bharatiya29 12:19, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

The Delhi police are not a reliable source, and membership in any party is not mutually exclusive with any ideology. Portraying the shooter's (supposed) membership in the AAP as somehow contradicting the rest of the paragraph is both original research and an NPOV violation. I've removed the text in question. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:40, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Not worse than the existence of that recently added WP:NOTNEWS section on this page, given the lack of conclusion by the sources themselves that this had anything to do with "saffron terror". I just removed the OR done since February 3. ML ⁹¹¹ 05:22, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Saffron terror is violence motivated by Hindu nationalism, and the lead to clearly says so, WP:NOTNEWS is not valid here as the incidents are motivated by Hindu nationalism. Dey subrata (talk) 05:31, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

You agree that sources lacked mention of "Saffron terror" which is certainly enough to disqualify this incident. We cannot add everything that was motivated by 'Hindu nationalism'. Reliable sources contradict each other right now even if Hindu nationalism was involved and that's why you will have to wait but keep this problematic section removed for now. D4iNa4 (talk) 08:32, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

If a reliable source calls it "Saffron terror" it can belong, if not, it doesnt. Simple as that. Agree with D4iNa4 above.Pectore^talk 22:12, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

That's a pretty disingenuous argument, because in the move request you were claiming that "Saffron Terror" is the more common name for Hindutva terrorism, and opposing the move for that reason. By that logic, anything described as Hindu nationalist terror also belongs here. On the other hand, if it doesn't, then it's a distinct topic, and your argument above has no logical basis. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:14, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Apologies, that comment is addressed to D4iNa4, not Pectore. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:03, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Hindutva terror

Should we change the name of this page as "Hindutva terror" as it is more widely accepted term and fits more instead of saffron.

The hindutva terrorism is more widely accepted and incidents are reported in these terms only. It will be good if we change it. Edward Zigma (talk) 07:14, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Oppose the move. Crawford88 (talk) 05:27, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

The subject of this article is the term "Saffron terror" itself. Hence I oppose any sort of move. Instead the article should be cleaned up to resolve the made-up confusion about its scope. Bharatiya29 06:51, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes its not saffron terror its only hindutva radical terror who thinks that Islam should nt be in India. Akshat1233 (talk) 07:03, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

plz rectify .. there no saffron terror.. it's a political conspiration Dr krishna1 (talk) 21:52, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Scope of the article

The recently concluded move request has made it clear that the general consensus is to keep the scope of this article limited to the neologism "Saffron Terror", and not the propaganda/concept/phenomenon (or whatever one may call it) of Hindu/Hinduism/Hindutva terrorism. In light of this, an effort needs to be made to include only those events in the "Incidents" section which have been clearly termed as "Saffron terror" by a significant section of neutral reliable sources. This will obviously result in the removal of a major chunk of this troublesome section. As of now, only the first section, i.e. "1999 killing of Graham Staines" has an explicit reference to a source linking it to the term, meaning that the other sections need to be removed if a similar source is not provided for them. Even then, the question of whether a single source is significant enough to warrant a section here crops up. However, that is a different debate for the future. Bharatiya29 20:30, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

No, absolutely not. The lack of consensus to change the title does not in any way imply consensus for a dictionary definition of the neologism. Indeed the argument made by many of those opposing the move was that the common name for the phenomenon was saffron terror; literally nobody besides you makes any argument for changing the scope of the article. Vanamonde (Talk) 01:40, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

I did not make an argument for changing the scope. I am rather making an argument for keeping the article restricted to its actual scope, which has always been limited to the term "Saffron terror". The move request was an attempt to change that and many of the arguments in support of it were based on widening the scope. (Including yours - Furthermore, the problem with the term "Saffron terror" was not that it was controversial, it's that it is something of a neologism.) The most recent AfD (2014 one) ended with no consensus and both Keep and Delete votes were based on the article's scope being the neologism.

• Keep votes by NeilN, Dwaipayanc, Rhododendrites, and ScrapIronIV were based on Saffron terror's notability as a term or neologism.
• Numerous delete votes, including that by Shrikanthv, AmritasyaPutra, and Vigyani were based on this topic failing WP:NEO, which is again a clear indication that the AfD was based on the article's scope being the neologism.
• Even back then, there were some rename votes which were based on the idea of widening the scope, similar to the arguments presented in favour of the recently concluded move request. There was no consensus in favour of that.

Hence, it is clear that there have been attempts to change the scope without any consensus for it and the article is in need of a cleanup to revert that. The major part of the "Incidents" section is thus WP:UNDUE. If you believe that the scope should be changed, achieve a consensus in favour of it. Till then, the original scope must be be restored. Bharatiya29 16:34, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

• There has never been consensus to restrict the article to the history of the term rather than the phenomenon. The AfD was five years ago, and was closed "no consensus" with no further analysis of its contents. Also, two of the loudest "delete" voices have since been indeffed for sockpuppetry, and very many of those arguing to keep discuss the notability of the phenomenon, not the term. More importantly, the AfD was to determine notability, and the rename discussion to select a name. There has been no specific discussion about scope, and in the absence of that, the default scope is anything that reliable sources refer to as saffron terror, or by synonymous terms. If you want to restrict the article, you will need to establish fresh consensus here. Vanamonde (Talk) 22:48, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

• I disagree with your assessment but continuing this discussion in its current form seems unfruitful. I shall start an RfC to determine the scope of this article. Looking forward to an insightful discussion. Bharatiya29 12:30, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

There's nothing called saffron terror

People says about saffron terror but they dont know How islam Has destroyed akhand bharat and made it pakistan ,bangladesh and occupy half kashmir ,kashmiri pandits , that's why some Hindus have gone radical that Muslims shouldn't be in Bharat.thats how it all started. Akshat1233 (talk) 07:02, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

This Talk page is there to discuss improvements to the Saffron terror article. Please read the Talk Page Guidelines. Your rant about the Supreme Court, Pakistan, Kashmir, Pandits etc. does not belong here. Also keep in mind that hate speech will certainly get you banned from Wikipedia. — kashmīrī ^TALK 14:10, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Saffron terror is a term used by the center left political parties to garner votes from non-hindu communities Writewing09 (talk) 16:23, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes this is right

Shamit2005 (talk) 18:13, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

So called saffron terror

This is a term coined by the Congress party Minister P Chidambaram and Digvijay Singh to defame Hindus in their own country, for political reasons and for garnering the votes of Muslims and Christians. It is suggested to Wikipedia to please remove this topic from the main Wikipedia page, since such a thing never existed nor is present now. Rharipanth (talk) 10:25, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Does the term defame the Hindus more than the acts of saffron terror being committed? — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

It only defames the people that identify with the terrorists. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

sources

sources for the blue padlock? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.42.32.236 (talk) 05:39, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

2020 Delhi Riots

Hindutva fundamentalists were also involved in the 2020 Delhi riots. Please mention it. Tamjeed Ahmed (talk) 10:42, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah Tahir Hussain was a Hindu right Vishnu Sooraj (talk) 11:31, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 July 2021

It is basically a conspiracy theory against the hindus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.191.53.10 (talk) 15:39, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Hindu Terrorism

This article should be called Hindu Terrorism, not "Saffron terror". There are articles on Christian Terrorism and Islamic Terrorism.

accusations

the samjhauta express bombings the masjid bomb blasts are mere accusations it doesnt even have good sources atleast confirm those edits the riots was started by muslims in godhra burning httpo://www.dw.de/modis-clearance-in-the-gujarat-riots-case-angers-indian-muslims/a-15874606

the Anti Terrorist Squad has prima facie ruled out the involvement of Hindu Nationalist groups like the Bajrang Dal in the Malegaon blasts citing two reasons:

RDX is only available to Islamist outfits. Bajrang Dal activists so far have only used crude bombs, nothing as sophisticated as the ones in Malegaon

https://web.archive.org/web/20121105055424/http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2006-09-12/india/27800611_1_malegaon-blasts-p-k-jain-maharashtra-town https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/police-crack-malegaon-serial-blasts-case-spot-simi-hand/articleshow/610189.cms

then about samjhauta express it is alleged that it was done by lashkar-e-tayiba https://indianexpress.com/news/curious-case-of-qasmani-who-us-un-named-in-bombing/735185/0 https://web.archive.org/web/20110811144133/http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-05-11/india/29531592_1_qaida-al-qaida-arif-qasmani https://www.npr.org/2011/05/12/136234805/foreign-policy-next-lets-get-bin-ladens-financiers

mecca masjid bombing

The South Asia Terrorism Portal,[1] the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses,[2] the National Counter Terrorism Centre[78] the United States,[3] and the United Nations[4] reported that Harkat-ul-Jihad al-Islami was actually behind the attacks while excluding involvement by any Hindu group. Noting this, security analyst Bahukutumbi Raman has questioned "the two different versions that have emerged from Indian and American investigators."[81] The South Asia Terrorism Portal cited Vikar Ahmed as a main suspect in the blast.[5][6] Mohammed Abdul Shahid Bilal, former chief of HuJI's Indian operations, is also regarded as a key suspect in the Mecca Masjid bombing. Later he was shot by unknown gunmen in Karachi on 30 August 2007

ajmer dargah attacks were mere accusations https://web.archive.org/web/20130927121847/http://ibnlive.in.com/news/ajmer-blast-accused-claims-shinde-forced-him-to-name-rss-chief-bhagwat/424426-3-239.html

Content relating to specific events must be about instances of the term's usage, not primarily about the events themselves

If the attacks and other incidents are supposed to stay in the article, the text must about how the term was used in relation to, or how it's use emerged from, these events. Not about the events as such. If this is not done after a while, any such event content can be removed, because the article is not a list of events but deals with a term, the historical context of it's usage, it's emergence, reactions thereof etc (see WP:WORDISSUBJECT). Unqualifiedly calling something an instance of Saffron terror "retroactively" when the term hadn't been popularized yet (which apparently happened in 2010 -- subsequent to the events), and when these events weren't being called that (or maybe they were but this article fails to establish it) is WP:SYNTH. Possible inclusion could be as historical context, but each event would have to be given due weight, and a source would have to be provided for each of these events being causally linked to the term's later spread in some way. — Alalch Emis (talk) 12:11, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Saffron terror describes incidents of terror motivated by Hindu nationalism in general. The attacks themselves are relevant and should remain in the article, but the article shouldn't claim that the exact term was used to describe the attacks before the term was even coined. Cipher21 (talk) 15:24, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

According to some it does, according to others, this term should not be used. This article is not about "incidents of terror motivated by Hindu nationalism". That could be another article, such as "List of Hindu nationalist terrorist attacks", it's about the term itself, a politically loaded neologism. The only things that should be contained in the article are things that make the reader learn more about this term, so why is the term used, how is it used, how did it originate, who is using it (and who is not using it), and what function does it have in the discourse. — Alalch Emis (talk) 16:17, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

The lead said, Saffron terror is a neologism used to describe acts of violence motivated by Hindutva. Hindu extremism is usually perpetrated by members, or alleged members, of Hindu nationalist organisations like Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) or Abhinav Bharat.[1][2][3] The term comes from the symbolic use of the saffron colour by many H/indu nationalist organisations.[4][5][6][7] -until you recently changed it (may I ask why?) - so it's alright. For reference, look at Islamic terrorism, which also has a list of incidents motivated by the latter. Cipher21 (talk) 17:09, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Also, saffron terror is not a term "used by some Indian politicians". Cipher21 (talk) 17:14, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

From archives, this looks like a rehash of a fairly recent scope debate on this page.

To elaborate a little, Hindu Terrorism and Hindu extremism (among many others) redirect here, so it isn't just WP:WORDISSUBJECT. The previous deletion discussions for Hindu terrorism, previous move discussion ^{(somehow missing from archives?)} for this page have also made clear that this is where those events belong. Hemanthah (talk) 17:51, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Pinging User:Alalch Emis to see if they need any further clarification of the scope. The accuracy notes, added on the basis of WP:WORDISSUBJECT, can otherwise be removed. Hemanthah (talk) 17:19, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I've been following the page, and wanted to reply sooner, but I haven't decided for myself yet on what the best idea is. I'm coming at this from a bit of "scholastic" angle. The only thing I want here is a normal coherent Wikipedia page that reads well and does not seem compromised in some way. The core problem is in the policy: WP:ISATERMFOR. The article can't start with X is word for / term for / neologism etc. But it can—when and only when the subject is the term itself. Clearly "Saffron terror" is a politically charged term with limited acceptance. It is also mostly tied to a certain period of recent history, approx. around 2008-2011 it seems. Therefore it is easy to conceive of this article as a typical WORDISSUBJECT article. If we do so we can't amalgamate the subject in such a way as to have it both as a conventional ground-facts article and a WORDISSUBJECT article, as that creates a POV problem. That's why the tag has been up since 2014. It's a glaring problem, and I don't think it needs further elaboration.

However the subject could be reformulated to primarily be the ground-truth. In that case the first sentence wouldn't start with "[x] is a neologism". Then the first sentence would be something like "[x] is a [phenomenon]" / "[x] comprises terrorist acts motivated by" ... etc. And in addition we would have a terminology section which would comprise all of the current content dealing with the historical context and usage of the term. So my position is: primary subject defined as the term + list of events = NO; phenomenon as the core subject + terminology = potentially YES; just terminology, i.e. the term = YES. I have more thoughts on this, but I'll pause now to see what you think. — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:43, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Sure, but this has been discussed extensively already, most recently just last year and the consensus, it seems to me has been exactly what you call "phenomenon+term". The wording can always be improved, and a good start for improvement would be removing the accuracy dispute tags that currently exist without justification. Hemanthah (talk) 18:05, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Phenomenon+terminology. When I first edited this topic this consensus was nowhere to be seen in practice, as no work according to this tentative consensus has been done. It's about more than wording, the article needs to be not rewritten, but written, because there is no coverage of the phenomenon, only pointing to an implicit phenomenon by listing several events. This is WP:SYNTH. The glaring problem was "softened" (read: only made worse) by substituting the missing sourced synthetic discussion of the phenomenon with a discussion of terminology. It made the article incoherent, and incredibly unconvincing. The factual claims are okay, but I dispute the relevance. If we agree that phenomenon+terminology is the way to go, first of all the phenomenon content must be written and referenced. I hope you're open to not the possibility of tag removal not being the absolute priority here. In a reasonable time frame they will certainly be removed one way or the other, but let's improve the article first. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:15, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Page starts with "Saffron terror is a neologism used to describe acts of violence motivated by Hindutva" and then there is a list of acts themselves with proper sourcing; each source mentioning how Hindu extremist organisations were involved in it. What's the implicit WP:SYNTH there? Hemanthah (talk) 05:21, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Hemanthah, there is no need to keep the attacks tagged. It's like disputing whether 9/11 was done by al-Qaeda. Cipher21 (talk) 17:08, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. It gets tedious soon. Hemanthah (talk) 03:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Please read the policies I've linked to earlier such as WP:ISATERMFOR to understand my argument, which I've already laid out in some detail. — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:16, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I have read them. I'm asking you to read the past history/discussions of this page because you keep linking to WP:DICDEF pages. It's pretty clear that established consensus is that it's more than just a word and you are rehashing a discussion with no new points.

If you object to the current wording, do improve it within the consensus, not against it. Hemanthah (talk) 02:43, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Alalch Emis, the oldest instance of the use of the term Saffron Terror - at least that which I can find - was actually in 2002, not 2007 or 2008. The 2002 Gujarat Riots, one of the most notable examples of the phenomenon, also took place at the same time, and nowadays Hindu extremism seems to be at an all time high, so I don't see how it's a politically charged term with limited acceptance tied to 2008-2012.Cipher21 (talk) 17:08, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Cipher21 What's currently written and sourced in the article establishes it as a politically charged term. You've posted what appears to be a great and very usable source; I haven't read it before. It needs to be included. Is this the earliest usage of "saffron terror"? — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:14, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Kashmiri: Your change (diff) to the first sentence would make for a fine first sentence, but I wonder if it's a valid summary of the lead per MOS:LEAD. If the body is currently about a term according to the WP:WORDISSUBJECT formulation of the scope of the article (sections are 'Historical context and origins [of the term]' and 'Usage [of the term]'), the first sentence should need to be about the term. If we want a first sentence that is about the phenomenon we need to write a "ground-truth" sourced section about the phenomenon that isn't a mere list of events whereby the reader is lead to an implicit synthesis ("You see, this is saffron terror"). Regards — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:29, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I get it. Thing is, a large part of the article discusses the phenomenon rather than the term; nearly all of the "Usage" section in fact describes instances of Hindutva terrorism, and not the linguistic usage of Saffron terror.

We have seen it already in Islamic terrorism and Christian terrorism where early versions focused predominantly on the term, on its definition, on the controversies the term generated, and whether the label should (or should not) be used for individual terrorist acts[7][8]. Over years, those early versions evolved to focus primarily on the phenomenon, relegating the debate on the terminology to Criticism/Controversies sections.

I think this present article should also evolve in this direction. It should ideally be renamed to Hindu terrorism (or Hindutva terrorism, but see the discussion about Islamic terrorism vs Islamist terrorism where the former prevailed) and, naturally, focus on the phenomenon. The term "Saffron terror" itself should only be mentioned as one of synonyms, and any related controversies should be dealt with in a dedicated section.

Regretfully, I won't have a capacity to do this at this time, as it would require weeks of discussions and consensus building about this sensitive topic. Only trying to propose a direction. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:08, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I rearranged the current material for a good start[9]. — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this is progress. We should look into sources that treat the phenomenon synthetically, like the one posted by Cipher21: [10]. The core section dealing with the subject as not-a-conclusion-a-wikipedia-editor-came-to-by-looking-at-the-self-selected-examples is still missing. The name of the section is of tertiary importance but it could be called something like 'Causes'/'Analysis'/'Phenomenon'. EDIT: Going further in this direction will provide grounds for the removal of the PoV template, in my opinion. — Alalch Emis (talk) 19:42, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

The name of the missing section could also be "History" where specific events are presented in appropriate historical context. — Alalch Emis (talk) 16:36, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

References

Bot conflict from having both ClueBot and Lowercase Sigma

User:Wikibhai110 added ClueBot to archive this page, even though MiszaBot^{(later Lowercase Sigma)} was already doing it. This has resulted in a split - a set of numbered archives till Feb 2020 and a set of monthly named archives since then.

I've created a new Archive 5 and copied all content from ClueBot's monthly archives to it. The archive search at the top is now comprehensive. Here's a set of diffs to verify content sameness.

Caption text

ClueBot Archive	Diff with newly created Archive 5
Talk:Saffron terror/Archives/2020/November	Special:Diff/1009183050/1056515619
Talk:Saffron terror/Archives/2021/March	Special:Diff/1028929591/1056515772
Talk:Saffron terror/Archives/2021/June	Special:Diff/1046420633/1056515873
Talk:Saffron terror/Archives/2021/July	Special:Diff/1052020936/1056515965
Talk:Saffron terror/Archives/2021/August	Special:Diff/1052020936/1056516059

As you can see from Archive 5 history, there are only 5 edits adding content and all the 5 diffs above show empty left sides, meaning I've added no new content. The sizes match ClueBot's archival edits (once same month edits are added together).

If there's anything I missed, let me know. I'll remove ClueBot in a while after those interested have had time to verify my changes (unless objections). I have done no change apart from adding that 5th archive page. --Hemanthah (talk) 08:03, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

oops, I'd removed cluebot, adding it back --Hemanthah (talk) 08:03, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I've removed cluebot now before it hits for this month. --Hemanthah (talk) 04:43, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your work. I was about to do it, but you've done it so much better. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:21, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words! --Hemanthah (talk) 04:43, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

"Shock after leaders of several far-right Hindu groups allegedly call for genocide of minorities in India"

Just dropping it here: https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/haridwar-hate-speech-yati-narsinghanand-b1981970.html — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:39, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

See Haridwar hate speeches. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:58, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Wow, that was quick! Although I'm not certain this one-event page would survive a potential AfD a couple of months/years down the line. It might be prudent to begin incorporating its contents to Hindutva or here. — kashmīrī ^TALK 00:14, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

I am glad you call it an "event". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:40, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Just like you :) [11] — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:27, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Reality

Does does communal conflict are terrorist activities??? Het666 (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, communal conflict can be terrorism against other Hindus and non-Hindus too. Terrorism is supposed to be violence that scares other people, so communal violence can eventually become terrorism.

If you mean "Islamic terrorism" by "communal conflict", yes, it is already covered in these articles and categories:

• Terrorism in India (Islamic terrorists are already mentioned)
• Category:Islamic terrorism in India
• Lashkar-e-Taiba

"Saffron terror" is about Hindu militants who also engage in similar actions.

PulauKakatua19 (talk) 23:25, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

NPOV tag

This article has been tagged with an NPOV dispute tag since 2014. Isn't it time to remove it? Cipher21 (talk) 16:20, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

@Cipher21 I support removing it. Please remove. Venkat TL (talk) 16:23, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I oppose removing for the reasons already stated in the discussion in the above section. — Alalch Emis (talk) 16:34, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Cipher21 I support removing it, this article has many issues. Devesh S N Bhatta (talk) 03:24, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I oppose removing it, multiple outstanding issues not yet resolved.Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 17:21, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

There are numerous outstanding issues, not least of which is that excuses by the terrorist groups claiming the phenomena doesn't exist, despite being entirely contradictory to the facts, are given more space over the course of the article than the acts themselves. Dankster (talk) 17:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Restore the mecca msjid bombing part

2007 Mecca Masjid bombing

Main article: Mecca Masjid bombing

The National Investigation Agency, Central Bureau of Investigation and Anti Terrorist Squad (India) questioned former members of the RSS On 19 November 2010, the Central Bureau of Investigation produced Swami Aseemanand before the court in connection with the Blast. But later he has retracted the confession citing the mental and physical pressure to provide that confession. 27.7.113.149 (talk) 06:24, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

References

Requested move 25 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: rough consensus to move. This was a lengthy discussion in which many arguments were raised, so I aim here to summarize the leading strands of the discussion rather than to provide a comprehensive list of claims made. There were two primary arguments that provided convincing support to the proposal:

• Several participants in the discussion argued that the term "Saffron terror" would be insufficiently WP:RECOGNIZABLE to the readership. Though it was widely agreed that "saffron" can be used as a metonymic adjective to refer to Hindu nationalism, there was not a clear case that such metonymic usage was common enough to make the term widely recognizable.
• Some participants noted that the term "Saffron terror" was also used to refer to Buddhist terrorism, especially in Burma. This created a WP:PRECISION problem with the "Saffron terror" title, which no supporters of that title addressed.

The two lines of argument discussed above established that the "Hindu terrorism" title was preferable to "Saffron terror" along two of the titling criteria. The discussion also included several popular lines of argument that ultimately proved to support neither title:

• There was no consensus on which title was the WP:COMMONNAME. Different parties in the discussion claimed that "saffron terror" was the common name, that "Hindu terrorism" was the common name, or that neither title had sufficient usage to be considered the COMMONNAME. Some evidence used to substantiate COMMONNAMEs was also argued to have been presented in flawed or biased ways, while other lines of evidence were unchallenged.
• Several supporters of "Hindu terrorism" argued that it would be WP:CONSISTENT with other article titles on religious terrorism. However, later in the discussion it was demonstrated that such articles are not actually consistently titled, and that some of the pro-CONSISTENT evidence in fact referred to redirects. Thus, WP:CONSISTENT does not ultimately support either title.
• The title "Hindutva terrorism" also received a fair amount of discussion, largely as a compromise title. However, several people criticized it as less common or recognizable than other options, and there seemed to have been a low level of enthusiasm for the title overall. Thus, a consensus did not emerge in favor of "Hindutva terrorism".

Opponents of the move largely sought to criticize the proposed title, "Hindu terrorism", rather than to give affirmative cases for retaining "Saffron terror". The main argument that was explicitly pro-"Saffron terror" was based on WP:COMMONNAME, a topic which I discuss earlier in this closing statement. Other arguments in opposition to "Hindu terrorism" included the following:

• It was asserted that "Hindu terrorism" was a smear term advanced by the BJP, but this argument held little water. Ngrams evidence raised in the discussion demonstrated that, while usage of the term "Hindu terrorism" has risen since roughly 2016, the term was still in regular use long before that.
• It was also argued that the term "Hindu terrorism" would create an inaccurate or ill-defined scope for the article, but these claims were contested and did not achieve much support.

In summation, the opponents of the move ultimately did not present arguments of comparable strength to the WP:CRITERIA-related arguments leveled in support of the proposal. Thus, while the supporters and opponents for this RM were roughly equal in number, the weight of arguments leads me to find a rough consensus to move the article as proposed. (non-admin closure) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:26, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

---

Saffron terror → Hindu terrorism – The current page title fails at the basics of naturalness and recognizability. While since the late 1990s, "Saffron terror" has been a common phrase in South Asia for terror committed by Hindu extremist groups, for the global English-speaking audience that this encyclopedia addresses a straightforward descriptive title makes sense, per WP:NDESC, consistent with Islamic terrorism, Christian terrorism and Jewish terrorism. Literature-wise, as Ngrams makes plain, taking the full breadth of the literature, "Saffron terror" commands but a fraction of the mentions of the broader mentions of "Hindu terror" or "Hindu terrorism" - the latter being a term for which this page is already the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, meaning this page is already the only page on Wikipedia about Hindu terrorism, and not simple a page about the neologism that is "Saffron terror". Google Scholar also produces 182 results for "Hindu terrorism" to 147 hits for "Saffron terror", without even getting into the various other iterations, such as "Hindu terror" 99 hits, "Hindutva terror" 92 results, etc. that make plain that there is no clear WP:COMMONNAME. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:34, 25 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 19:41, 5 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 16:53, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• Addendum: For reference, further clarifying the concurrence of these terms: "Hindu terrorism, also called saffron terror, thrives on the notion of Hindutva." Symbolism in Terrorism: Motivation, Communication, and Behavior Iskandar323 (talk) 06:47, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Lame whataboutery. "Saffron terror" still wins as WP:COMMONNAME. These violent incidents were not inspired by Hinduism but Hindutva as scholarly sources clearly note. Capitals00 (talk) 13:35, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  @Capitals00: What are your metrics or analysis that support WP:COMMONNAME? Iskandar323 (talk) 13:39, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

It depends on what reliable sources are saying.[12],[13][14][15][16][17][18] As such "Saffron terror" is still WP:COMMONNAME. The term "Hindu terror" and whatever you have found for this term is mainly a part of a broader political campaign of Hindutva proponent Bharatiya Janta Party (BJP) to smear Indian National Congress by falsely accusing them of using the term "Hindu terror", even after denials by the latter.[19][20] Capitals00 (talk) 14:04, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

That must be why usage of the term began in the 1940s, predating the 1951 formation of the BJP - that's what I call planning! But in any case, if the BJP, a.k.a. the Indian government, is using the term "Hindu terror" as part of an effort to smear its opponents, that still means the term has currency. As for the alignment between the term and the article, let's see what some sources say. For example the article: Good Faith, Bad Faith: Modi claims “Hindu terror” is an insult, but home ministry probes “Islamist & Sikh terrorism” states: "The BJP and its parent organisation, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, have long held that there is no such thing as Hindu terrorism—the term gained traction against the backdrop of investigations into the Samjhauta Express blast of 2007 and the Malegaon blasts of 2008, among others." In the article we have: 2007 Samjhauta Express bombings and 2008 Malegaon blasts. And another: Invisibilizing Hindu terrorism through the “War on Terror”, which states: "Despite many cases of Hindu terrorism in India, the figure of the Muslim as a terrorist in Indian society lurks in no small part due to post 9/11 Western discourse of the “War on Terror.” That the Malegaon bombasts, Ajmer Dargah attack, and Mecca Masjid blast were carried out by Hindu terrorists is somehow comfortably forgotten in mainstream narratives." Yep, we also have 2007 Ajmer Dargah attack. The first of those two articles manages to write an entire article about the subject without mentioning "Saffron terror" once. I wonder how? Perhaps because it's not actually a useful descriptive term (let alone a common name), but just an alternative term. The second article makes a single reference to "Saffron terror", noting "Yet any reference to the term “saffron terror” to indicate growing Hindu terrorism in India can be used a disciplinary ground by the Election Commission of India for allegedly endorsing a “political conspiracy.”" Iskandar323 (talk) 16:01, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Terrorist incidents in South Asia 1970–2016

• Oppose - No evidence of usage in WP:RS has been provided. The very first of the OP's google hits for "Hindu terrirosm" is actually titled "Saffron terrorism"! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:45, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  I mean, you can see the sources for yourself all over the internet and in Scholar, and I've shared the Scholar link, and you obviously clicked on it, since you're using its results to try to make some sort of a point, though what exactly that is is unclear. So the first source is titled Saffron terrorism, yep, which tells us is that the terms are used concurrently, as expected. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:24, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  I am not interested in "Google hits" or "all over the Internet". I am interested in reliable sources (see that page) describing the phenomena/events of this article as "Hindu terorism". Until you provide such evidence, this proposal is a non-starter. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:30, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  If you are actually disputing that "Saffron terror" is Hindu terrorism, which seems like a fairly absurdist stance to take, but each to their own, you should take your concerns to the redirect Hindu terrorism, for which this page is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Sources had already been provided above making the connection explicit before your comment. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:19, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  You seem to be heavy loading the existence of a redirect. Redirects are just aids for searching. They don't have any verifiability or NPOV requirements.

  Not only I am disputing that saffron terror is Hindu terrorism, I am not even convinced there is anything coherent called "Hindu terrorism". The WP:ONUS is on you to prove it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:47, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  Ngrams is a bit unpredictable, but it doesn't just make things up, and the term is sitting on there plain as day, in addition to the already quoted sources above that use the term. Or you can look at any of the sources on Scholar where the sources are use concurrently and often interchangeably. Come on, just look at some sources. You have 80k edits. Don't just sit about quoting policy. The onus is on all editors to use their brains and not just quote policy to filibuster rational discussion. But here, I'll get you started: "Hindu terrorism, also called saffron terror, thrives on the notion of Hindutva." Symbolism in Terrorism: Motivation, Communication, and Behavior By Jonathan Matusitz, page 161 Iskandar323 (talk) 06:40, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nomination, which points out that main title header Hindu terrorism, a redirect to this article, is analogous to other such Wikipedia article headers — Christian terrorism, Islamic terrorism, Jewish terrorism redirect to Jewish religious terrorism, Buddhist terrorism redirect to Buddhism and violence or Category:Sikh terrorism. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
• I've searched through google scholar, and the results are somewhat inconclusive: the slight tilt in favor of "Hindu terror/terrorism" is more than offset by the quality of sources using the term. Surprised as I am to be agreeing with Capitals00, they are quite correct above; a non-trivial number of the hits for "Hindu terror" come from denials that it is a phenomenon, and from non-RS. Given the fraught nature of the topic, I believe google hits are a bad metric here; we need to examine the best sources on the topic, and see what they use. As best as I can tell these sources are fairly evenly divided between "Saffron terror" and "Hindutva terrorism", and I prefer the latter as a more descriptive term that is less likely to confuse the general reader. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:43, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for that thoughtful input. I would agree that "Hindutva" is more descriptive than the present adjective and a potentially slightly more precise option than "Hindu" in the context, though somewhat less natural and recognizable for a global audience, but still better than "Saffron terror" - with a colour designation really doing very little to help the unacquainted reader understand the context. I found at least one academic source using "Saffron terror" in the context of Buddhist extremism in Burma [21], possibly in error? I meanwhile also tested "Hindu nationalist terror(ism)", but few sources seems to use that more long-winded phrasing. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:07, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  Very hesitant support. I'll begin by saying that I dislike "[Religion] terrorism" as a title for any article, because it's an oversimplification, as any genuine scholarship of that religion will attest. It is particularly so for a religion as old and heterogenous as Hinduism. However, having examined the sources further, I think RegentsPark's point that "saffron terror" is imprecise is a serious concern; there's a non-trivial number of sources using "saffron" to refer to activity by Buddhists, and at least one frequently-cited piece using "saffron terror" to discuss persecution by Buddhists in Myanmar. Taken together with concerns about it being a neologism, and about it being jargon, I believe "Saffron terror" is a bad title. My personal preference would be to call the topic "Hindutva terrorism", but for "Hindu terrorism" vs "Hindutva terrorism" specifically, the former term is clearly used more often. I think this is a distinctly non-ideal outcome, and I don't think I would necessarily oppose a subsequent move to "Hindutva terrorism" if someone can demonstrate substantial usage; but this is where I land for the moment. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

  I don't see how that is viable. Did you find any sources that define the term? Do any of them devote even a section for 'Hindu terrorism'? Does it even meet WP:GNG? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:30, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

  None of those questions have anything to do with the title of the article, as they also apply to "Saffron terror". Of the sources that come closest to discussing etymology, Gatade [22] prefers "Hindutva terrorism", which I've not objected to: Matusitz [23] uses "Hindu terrorism" primarily, and "Saffron terror" secondarily; and Gittinger [24] uses "Hindu terrorism" more often than "Saffron terror", despite the latter being in the title of her article. The usage is clearly mixed, but "Saffron terror" has an ambiguity problem. Also: I searched through reliable English-language news media (NYT, WaPo, BBC to begin with); the tilt in usage is quite clear, with "Hindu terrorism" being used about three times more often, and "Hindutva terror" not even registering. Again, were it up to me I'd use "Hindutva terrorism", but it's not been picked up by sources, and "Saffron terror" isn't viable any longer. Vanamonde (Talk) 03:23, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per Capitals00. The term "Hindu terror" is at best creation of BJP to misrepresent its major opponent Congress. I don't think alternative 'Hindutva terrorism' will work because it would make more sense to merge this article to Hindutva. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 12:12, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  The term "Hindu terror" is at best creation of BJP to misrepresent its major opponent Congress.: Can you please explain this? How is it a creation of the BJP? —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 12:47, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  As noted above, literature using the terms Hindu terror or Hindu terrorism dates back to the 1940s, 10 years before the BJP even existed, so to suggest that these are wholly recent terms is simply to misconstrue the evidence. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:37, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Show those sources from 1940s. Just ngram random search is not enough. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 14:28, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Here are your 40s sources: Fascist India by Patrick Lacey, 1946, page 45: "Heaven forbid that we should let Hindu terrorism warp our judgment when and if we must adjudicate again on communal rivalries."; Whys of the Great Indian Conflict by M. A. Mehtar, 1947, page 73: "The Mussalmans have been oppressed and persecuted by the excesses of the Hindu majority in the last ten years but Mr Gandhi never tried to improve matters or condemn Hindu terrorism against the Muslims", which is an excerpt from a 1946 presidential address by Muhammad Ali Jinnah also present twice elsewhere: [25], [26]. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:02, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Are these reliable sources for anything, let alone this page? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:39, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

I was asked for evidence of usage back in the 1940s, so I provided it. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:21, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support for several reasons:

1. To avoid figurative use in article titles – here, the figurative use of a plant name is not, in all probability, legible to the majority of readers.
2. To improve consistency with other articles listed by @Roman Spinner.
3. To avoid giving an air of whitewashing which occurs when uncomfortable phenomena are not named directly.

I'd also avoid the term Hindutva as it's much less legible for lay people. — kashmīrī ^TALK 14:12, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Saffron, as used here, comes from Saffron (color) which is the color most used by Hindu supremacist groups, not Saffron the plant, which is unrelated to Hindu terrorism. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 18:00, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

... though this does somewhat exemplify the recognizability issue raised: "The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." Iskandar323 (talk) 18:25, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

"Saffron politics", "saffronization" etc. were terms in vogue at that time. Perhaps the term has gone out of fashion. If so, "Hindutva terror" is readily available as an alternative. We won't need any big discussion for it because sources on this page itself have used it often enough. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:07, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

The usage of "saffron" to denote a colour is very rare[27]. I venture to say that an average English speaker outside India wouldn't be able to correctly identify "saffron colour". — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:23, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

And yet loads of scholars used it in book titles: The Saffron Wave, The Saffron Tide, Khaki Shorts and Saffron Flags, The Saffron Mission, Saffron Surge, Rise of Saffron Power, yet another Saffron Surge, and The Saffron Condition. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:58, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely. Metonymy tends to sound nice in book titles. I mean, like "Roof of the World" instead of Tibet, etc. What I'd prefer to see here, however, is not a poetic figure of speech but a standard, common term. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:40, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Also subtitles: Fascinating Hindutva: Saffron politics and Dalit mobilisation. Also research papers: The Saffron Surge in Indian Politics: Hindu Nationalism and the Future of Secularism, The New Contours of Identity Politics: Saffron Mobilization of Dalit and Backward Caste in Uttar Pradesh, etc. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:04, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Do you have an usage example elsewhere than in titles? — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:17, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

A news article from a couple of years ago. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:46, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Another one from last year. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:48, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

What's the point here exactly? I don't think anyone is doubting that the color has a symbolic relationship with Hinduism /Hindu nationalist politics /Hindutva. The point is that "Saffron terror" is impoverished as a descriptive title for those not already familiar with the genre. We could use Red terrorism for Communist terrorism and Green terrorism for Eco-terrorism, but it should be obvious how ridiculous an encyclopedia revolving around color-based metaphors would be. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:33, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

"Hindutva terror" was featured on the original Ngrams evidence, where it didn't perform well. In addition to issues of overall prevalence, as noted above, "Hindutva" as a word that potentially has some recognizability issues for those not familiar with South Asian politics. It is a far from common word across the English-speaking world. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:10, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 09:36, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

  @Pharaoh of the Wizards: I'm not aware of any evidence being presented that "Saffron terror" is the WP:COMMONNAME here. If you have found some, I would be grateful if you could present your findings. What I am aware of is that if you take the 265 Google Scholar hits for "Hindu terror" OR "Hindu terrorism" and then if you re-run the search excluding the term "Saffron terror", you still get 237 Google Scholar hits - suggesting that usage of the term is not that important to discussion of the subject at all, let alone positioning it as any kind of common name. By way of contrast, if you take the 147 Google Scholar hits for "Saffron terror" and exclude "Hindu terror" OR "Hindu terrorism", the results plummet to 28 Google Scholar hits, which means that the vast majority of sources discussing "Saffron terror" find it impossible to do so without mentioning either "Hindu terror" OR "Hindu terrorism" - suggesting that not only is it not the common name, but that its descriptive powers are impoversished at best and that its usage requires heavy supplementation by more descriptive terms. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:03, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Move. Firstly, the data used here is wrong, and further, the page is also very clearly about accusations of saffron terror, not 'hindu' terror, which would make the title widely inaccurate.

That aside, the flawed basis for the title move is also clear - A cursory glance at the Ngrams shows that it is an apples to oranges comparison. It combines Hindu Terror with Hindu Terrorism but only takes Saffron terror and its derivatives. As such, the Ngrams seems to have been manipulated in order to depict the preferred title as being more common in literature. Indeed, an actual fair comparison of the suggested title with current title shows the exact opposite conclusion as the one proposed : link to Ngram.

As for the google scholar search results, they are also rather noticeably inaccurate - As pointed out above by other editors, there is a steep discrepancy in the data used. At even a cursory glance, the first, fifth and sixth result in the search for "Hindu Terror" are all titled as "Saffron terror". The third result is about Hindu terror being a misnomer, so on and so forth.... The results can hardly be said to have any usefulness in this state.

In short, the proposal lacks merit in its entirety and is based upon incorrect assertions of fact. As such, the current title is sufficient and accurate.Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 08:41, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@CapnJackSp: I must demur on the point that the Ngrams is either flawed or misleading. There is no serious semantic difference between 'Hindu terror' and 'Hindu terrorism' - just because on is an 'ism' and the other is not does not make it different terminology. And anyone can have a play with the graph for thenselves. The point is, whatever way you dice it, 'Saffron terror' is far from any kind of common name and, as such, is worthy of discussion as a title. As for the scholar hits, do you think I linked them not thinking people would look at them? Yes, obviously Saffron terror is also referenced. No one is denying it is a term. The whole move is based on their synonymous meaning, but as noted, people love a bit of metaphor and wordplay in book and paper titles; that doesn't mean it it makes for a good descriptive title in a universal encyclopedia. The proposal from the outset was based on WP:NDESC and the relative utility of any of three alternative terms, Hindu terrorism, Hindu terror or Hindutva terror, relative to the current title, which is a visual metaphor with limited cultural, linguistic and geographical reach, and which very few outside of South Asia or South Asian studies will be familiar with. And it is a poor choice for readers IMO. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:50, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it means the same thing, but adding additional ways to catch one term in place of another makes for an unfair comparison, as the actual comparison showed. Again, while comparing Ngrams, you have exercised the same error - combining Hindu and Hindutva is again, not a direct comparison. As for the google scholar results, if the results are consistently about Saffron Terror, even when searching for your proposed title, it does, in fact, substantiate it as the COMMONNAME, and whataboutery wont change that. The other titles you proposed are either inaccurate or practically unused; due to which I oppose the move. I remain thoroughly unconvinced by your arguments. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 12:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi CapnJackSp, I didn't know about the "+" trick in Google ngram viewer. Now that I became aware, I tried out a more general search and the results indicate that the "Hindu terrorism" term has seen a rise very recently. It is still unclear why this is. One reason seems to be that BJP itself has mentioning that term in order to shoot it down. Another reason seems to be that the scholars have begun to use that term (now more comfortably because of the rising Hindutva violence), but I haven't even found a definition of the term anywhere. I think we need to wait for the dust to settle. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I already provided you with a source [28] with the definition. What's the issue? Iskandar323 (talk) 15:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Adding to that, Im not even sure if "Hindu terror" will be accurate for the information on this page. I think someone cited things like Islamic terror and Christian terror to support the usage here, but the key difference between those pages and the one here is that they are about religious fundamentalists carrying out terror attacks, whereas the topics covered in our article are specifically only about of Hindu Nationalist organisations; the basis of the ideology of the accused differ in this case. Hindutva Terror may be a more accurate term than Hindu Terror, with the only issue being it is practically unused by any good sources. Saffron terror means the same as Hindutva terror, and is much more common; which is why I opposed the move. Open to your suggestions. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 19:00, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• What is this article about in the first place, the neologism or terrorism in general? If the former would a separate article not be better (if the topic is covered as such)? If the latter then we need to see which usage is preferred, not seeing a tilt in favour of either scale as of this moment. On the topic of title consistency, I can see a pattern but not universally Buddhism and violence, Sikh terrorism (redirect), Mormonism and violence, Jewish religious terrorism do all deviate in one way or other from the proposed title here; perhaps more title variations can be explored. Gotitbro (talk) 19:04, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

The issue is, the proposed new title has barely any matter to add; the term "Hindu terror" has very few examples to talk of, with little to no scholarly material on it. As for the violence carried out by Hindus on religious lines that would not be considered an act of terror (riots, vigilantism etc), that is covered in articles like this and this. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 19:14, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

This page currently exists in a nadir state that is a shadow of it's 2013 existence, when it was obviously not about a neologism. And it's obviously not about a neologism now, since the term has been around for three decades and is clearly in mainstream use. Whoever fronted the page with this 'neologism' first sentence was clearly, and presumably tendentiously, trying to edit the actual topic out of existence. I guess I'll try and figure out who this was. There is plenty more content, and plenty of sources (pertinent to all of the relevant terms), that can be fed into this subject. Whether whoever worked to grind the article down will gracefully allow it to be built back up is another question. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, not really ... ok, so it was introduced just weeks earlier in Feb 2013 and then edited warred over prolifically, including by you, among others, despite the attribution being wholly unverified information. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:17, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I agree that saffron terrorism is not exactly out there as a recognizable title by the lay reader and, in that sense, Hindu or Hindutva (though that does require more parsing) terrorism is a lot clearer. From what I can see, the sources tend to use Hindu terrorism the most. JStor pulls up 18 "Hindu terrorism" articles, 13 "Hindutva terrorism" and 12 "Saffron terror" articles (which included a few on Buddhist terrorists in Myanmar). Hindu terrorism also dominates both Saffron terror/terrorism as well as Hindutva terrorism on my Google search (167,000/36,820/6,120). On Google scholar, the results are 162/148/92 with Hindu terrorism only slightly edging out Saffron terrorism though there were a smattering of Burmese buddhist terrorism articles thrown into the mix. It seems fairly clear to me that Saffron terror is not ideal both because it is not the dominant term as well as because there are non-Hindu saffron terrorists. We could go with the dominant Hindu terrorism title or settle on Hindutva terrorism as the most descriptive since the overall numbers for this phenomenon are quite small (167,000 hits on google search, 18 articles in JSTOR is not exactly up there in excitement terms).--RegentsPark (comment) 20:24, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

  You're correct that, while I don't think "Saffron terror" as a distinct phrase is quite so common in reference to Burma (though I have seen at least one concrete and widely referenced example), as a more general rule, the symbolism of "Saffron" is as much a cultural feature of Buddhism as it is of Hinduism, so yes, aside from not being descriptive, "Saffron" can be confusing. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:09, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• "Saffron terror" is still used often and nobody (as clear from reliable sources) has seen any confusion related to this term. "Hindutva terrorism" won't make sense and would seem better merged with Hindutva itself. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 12:31, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom and WP:CONSISTENT --- Tbf69 P • T 18:04, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Doesnt hold here, ideology of the accused is religious nationalism, not religious fundamentalism as in the case of other religious terrorism articles that have been highlighted. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 06:53, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

You're railing against a bit of a straw man here. You don't have to be a religious fundamentalist to participate in terrorism. In your comments further up, you argue from the perspective of consistency, but on the Christian terrorism page, many of the examples are not 'fundamentalist' in nature. In any case, it's something of a matter of perspective and/or semantics as to whether religious nationalism can be considered religious fundamentalism or religious extremism in any given context. As the article Putting the “Fun” in Fundamentalism: Religious Nationalism and the Split Self at Hindutva Summer Camps in the United States notes: "For the purposes of this article the terms religious fundamentalism, religious nationalism, and religious extremism are interchangeably defined ..." Iskandar323 (talk) 08:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

These are clearly not the same for our purpose, as you have been clearly told on the requested move in the Jewish religious terrorism page as well where you were mixing ethno-religious with religious ideologies. Whatever "interchangeability" the author of the article took for their convenience hold little value here ; These terms are very clearly different in their scope and motivations, and hence must be dealt with separately. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 10:32, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Thankfully, published authors are reliable sources; you are not. And how about you keep your edit stalking to yourself, less it be construed as Wikihounding. Whataboutism is, as always, an irrelevance. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:46, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Published authors may be RS, I agree wholeheartedly. Wikipedia editors (such as yourself or me) are not. And according to the author, "For the purposes of this article the terms........are interchangeably defined". The sentence is rather clear; For the purposes of the article, the terms have been used interchangeably. It does not imply that the terms are in general, interchangeable or equivalent. Your extrapolation that they are, is your own opinion. Further, a single source does not outweigh the large majority of sources. Even if you were to drag up some obscure article from somewhere, it would still not be enough to flip the title.

As for your thinly veiled accusation of wikihounding, it may be best to actually read the page - What "disruption" have I caused, to the project or to you? Kindly elucidate as to how pointing out that you raised a similar RFC, with the same incorrect assumptions, which has now been closed as "Not Moved" is a form of harrassment. Keep in mind that attempting to cower someone in an editorial dispute with frivolous claims is WP:DE. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 17:18, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support per WP:RECOGNIZABLE and WP:CONSISTENT.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Keep in mind that these two policies if applied correctly would actually support "Saffron Terror", not "Hindu terror". Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 08:08, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose No clear case for "Hindutva" or "Hindu" terror. As such, we should continue to retain the present title since the term is still widely used.[29] Accesscrawl (talk) 07:55, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Capitals00 and Kautilya3, and strongly oppose move based on WP:CONSISTENT, because it does not apply; of the five examples given above, Buddhist terrorism redirects to Buddhism and violence, Jewish terrorism redirects to Jewish religious terrorism, and Sikh terrorism redirects to the militancy section of Khalistan movement that’s three out of five, so clearly '[religion] terrorism' is not how such articles are consistently titled across wikipedia. Hindu terrorism already redirects to this page, and strong evidence in favour of a move has not been presented. The two articles that do follow the ‘[religious] terrorism’ (Christian, Islamic) are the two religious terrorisms around which extensive scholarship exists (just check the size of their leads, compared to this article). That does not apply to an ill-defined term for an ill-defined topic that barely meets WP:GNG. UnpetitproleX (talk) 21:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

  Most of this article is indeed dedicated just to the contention surrounding the term, and accounts of three individual bomb-blast cases. If you take out the details about the three cases (which anyway belong to the main articles of those blasts), then you're left only with the controversy surrounding the term. That’s what most of this article is. So in its current form, it most certainly should not be moved. UnpetitproleX (talk) 21:32, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

  And there is no page on Muslim terrorism either. People claiming WP:CONSISTENT have no clue what they are talking about.

  Islamic terrorism and Christian terrorism start with a definition. "Hindu terrorism" has no definition. How is that for "consistency"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:41, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

  I’d actually argue that this page shouldn’t even exist. The term should be covered in a section in the Hindutva, Hindu nationalism, or Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh articles—whichever is more apt. Most of this article is just WP:CONTENTFORK. UnpetitproleX (talk) 22:00, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

  What are you talking about? It's clearly 'Hindu' as an adjective here - just as with the example "Christian", where in the context it is an adjective for something pertaining to Christianity (but elsewhere means a devotee). Iskandar323 (talk) 23:06, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

  That's not because there is not other material, only because this page is minimalist with respect to the subject matter. Read any of the first three sources if you are interested in the substance that is missing from this article. Iskandar323 (talk) 23:08, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relist, to allow more discussion about how this topic is discussed in reliable sources; whether they use "Saffron terror", "Hindu terrorism", or "Hindutva terrorism" BilledMammal (talk) 16:53, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment The proposer seems to have realised that NDESC is not valid here, which was in his own word the basis of the whole proposal. The numbers in the proposal have been debunked. The proposers have not even been able to put forth a well sourced definition of what their proposed title, "Hindu Terror" is! RS clearly prefer Saffron terror over "Hindu Terror" (see discussion below). A similar request by the proposer at Jewish religious terrorism has been closed as "Not Moved". Dont see what basis is left under which this page can be moved. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move review

Move review started here: Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2023_April. Capitals00 (talk) 18:35, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Reversion of sourced content

@Capitals00: Maybe you missed the memo on your talk page, but I'm still awaiting the explanation of this wholesale revert, and this repeat revert, of the same diverse range of edits under two entirely lacking edit summaries. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:15, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

It is your own WP:OR that term "Hindu terrorism" was used since 1940s. The source does not say this. This explanation was already provided to you in edit summary.

"The BJP and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh have long maintained that "Hindu terrorism" does not exist, and maintained a stated position that rejects "any link between religion and acts of terror", despite the term gaining traction in the wake of the Samjhauta Express and Malegaon bombings." This is being added in the wake of the latest page move which is nothing but a WP:SUPERVOTE. I would recommend you to hold on until we have resolved this issue. But even if that was not the case, this paragraph looks repeatitive. Enough denial has been already added on this page. Capitals00 (talk) 11:59, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

@Capitals00: I'm sorry. You are going to have to explain to me in a little more detail how pointing to a source that shows usage of the term in the 1940s and stating it has been used since 'at least' the 1940s is OR. It is a self-evident, plain-as-day statement of fact, along very basic WP:COMMONSENSE lines. The existing sentence about the term "Saffron terror" even deploys exactly the same common sense. There is simply a source from 2002 that shows (without stating) the demonstrable usage of the term in that time period.

So far, that is the only part of your extensive revert that you have even half explained. Why did you revert this edit moving the controversy material to the end of the page, which is where such sections sit on every page on this platform? And why did you delete the introductory sentence that I added linking the section to the page title?

Aside from the 1940s pretense above, why did you revert all of this reliably sourced material added to the terminology section, including the widely reported and republished example of a prominent 1946 speech using the page's main term, and also the separately sourced statement about when the term gained traction (sourced very clearly to the referenced source)?

Finally, why did you removed this very straightforward addition to the lead that does exactly what the lead is supposed to do, which is to summarize the content of the article. Given that about 50% of the article is dedicated to these attacks, how was the removal compliant with requirements of MOS:LEAD?

Given your to date disinterest in explaining this revert, which incidentally also removed reliable, secondary sources, it is is very hard not to view this as a WP:BADREVERT and particularly WP:MASSR given the limited explanation. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:22, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:COMMONSENSE cannot be used for justifying your WP:SYNTH. Capitals00 (talk) 18:12, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

You are blaming "Hindu terrorist organizations" here for 2008 western India bombings, Mecca Masjid blast, 2006 Malegaon bombings, etc. but can you show where they were convicted for these incidents? Also you are supposed to avoid using the term "terrorist" in accordance with WP:LABEL. Capitals00 (talk) 18:22, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

@Capitals00: You still have not provided any explanation for the mass revert above, a silence that is increasingly becoming deafening. As for "You are blaming..." er, no. The reliable, secondary source provided, i.e.: Hindu, Sikh, Christian and Jewish Terrorism says exactly that. You continue to delete content blatantly supported by reliable secondary sourcing. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:26, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Sources

I checked the sources mentioned in the beginning.

1-Saffron Terror: Splinter or Symptom? JULI GITTINGER

2-Pawns In, Patrons Still Out: Understanding the Phenomenon of Hindutva Terror SUBHASH GATADE

3-Confronting the Reality of Hindutva Terrorism Praful Bidwai

4- Google book mentions Hindu terrorism

5- Hindutva terror cases: NIA on the backfoot as apex court questions complicity charges

If you people are naming the artile as Hindu terror then use sources which is named as Hindu terror in the title.

The support votes for move shows that Timothy Dalton can be moved to James Bond? Or Shah Rukh Khan be moved to Baadshah of Bollywood? Venus 4321 (talk) 06:00, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Radhakrishan quote

I took ou th note with the quote from S. Radhakrishnan because his comments were not in the context of terrorism. Not sure why the edit summary didn't survive but figured I'd better explain the removal somewhere! RegentsPark (comment) 21:40, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Counterfactual revert

@Kautilya3: Come on then. Let's hear your explanation as to why you are removing reliable sources, including two peer-reviewed sources, from the article. You don't really need consensus to add factual, reliably sourced information to this encyclopedia, especially when the addition is so stragihtforward, so I assume you have a very good reason indeed for reverting here. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

First of all, you were attempting to broaden the scope of the article, which is currently regarding the term "saffron terror". You can't do that unilaterally.

Secondly, your identification of "saffron terror" with "Hindu terrorism" is problematic, as the above discussion has clearly revealed. Neither do your sources settle the matter. (Mind you, I explicitly asked for sources in the above section, and you brushed me off.)

Julie Gittinger, whom I find a respectable scholar, is using the term "Hindu terrorism" in a generic way to mean terrorism perpetrated by (some) Hindus. She never bothered to define the term. Neither did she say that "saffron terror is also known as Hindu terrorism". In fact, she sided with our position when she says: "It could be argued that Hindu terrorism is not religious violence, but political (another reason I am partial to the non-religious label of saffron)."

Matusitz is some third or fourth rate junk scholar who plagiarises Wikipedia without even being clever about it. His line "The term comes from the association of the color saffron with Hindu nationalism.[1]" is lifted from this very page. He added a WP:FAKE citation to Bidwai, who said nothing about "saffron terror". His definition of Christian terrorism: "Christian terrorism consists of terrorist attacks committed by groups or individuals who appeal to Christian motives or goals for their actions." is also lifted from our Christian terrorism page. It is no wonder that he has no definitions for "Hindu terrorism" and "Sikh terrorism", only his own rambling POVs. This is not a reliable source for anything. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:38, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes brother I strongly agree with you.. 202.142.121.165 (talk) 15:34, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

And also, why is "Tamil Tigers" a separate section? Why is it not part of "Hindu terrorism"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:42, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

This page clearly isn't about a neologism; it is about a form of terrorism, as clearly outlined by its series of incidents. That someone daftly wrote a bad first line and bad short description is neither here nor there. As you can see from the previous version of the page that you have linked to, the page has been systematically bastardized and chipped away over the past decade to be less and less substantive and encyclopedic than the 2013 version. As I mentioned before, if you seriously intend to continue arguing that these are distinct terms, i.e.: that Hindu terrorism, for instance, should not direct here (dubious), you should stop beating around the bush and raise a redirect for discussion talk on that page. Otherwise, if I turn the redirect Hindu terrorism into a page, I expect not to hear a word of complaint from you. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:23, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Thats.... An interesting way to discuss, thats for sure. Regardless, as for the merit of the matter; I have yet to see anything that you added which corresponds to "Hindu terror". The only sources I see being used to support that are talking of saffron terror, but mislabelling it as Hindu terror. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 19:06, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

More interesting than engaging with arguments that terms don't exist or that sources mentioning those terms don't exist. With friends like these, it's no wonder this page is such an uninformative mess. Since 2013, it's clearly been eviscerated by those who would like nothing more than to assert that the subject is but a neologism conjured out of thin air. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:27, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

This page lists those incidents which have been described as "saffron terror". If you have other incidents and other descriptions, please feel free to go and start a new page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:21, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: And both of the two journal sources you deleted reference the same terror incidents, literally on the first page of each - you don't even have to sign in to see it! And the first source was titled "Saffron terror" - what on earth is justification for removing a reliable source on "Saffron terror" from the article on "Saffron terror", as opposed to say moving it, or performing literally almost any variation on editing between actual work and just deleting it? On this neologism point, are you genuinely saying that you cannot see that this article is about a broader subject, and not just a neologism, which is clearly a tendentious framing that has been worked in some time between the 2013 version that you highlighted and the present? Iskandar323 (talk) 06:28, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

So I see that the 'neologism' lead was introduced unsourced back in 2013, and you have played no small part in maintaining this unverified information. All that has changed is that while a decade ago you freely admitted that 'Saffron terror' and 'Hindutva terror' were the same thing, today you are silent on the subject. So, since you are a 'neologism' defender, I'd like to see your best source for the lead statement, because no source in the article supports this. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:04, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I am still saying that "saffron terror" and "Hindutva terror" are the same thing. Search for those terms on this very page. My 2014 edit was probably going to back an earlier version of the lead. (I don't really remember, I was still a newbie editor at that time.) But you can see Talk:Saffron terror/Archive 4 for the consensus at that time, in particular NeilN's comments. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:39, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• There is no "Hindu terrorism", that's why it was a good move to revert the edit. Iskander, looking at above dicussion and in this section as well, you got all your answers and I think you should really find another subject now. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 06:42, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• No opinions at the moment on framing the introductory sentence, and there's genuine room for disagreement as to how to title it and introduce it. But I don't see how it's reasonable for this to be a page about the neologism anymore; there is too much scholarly material discussing the phenomenon of terrorism motivated by right-wing Hindu nationalism. The page is about this phenomenon, which at this point is clearly more notable than the neologism itself. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:54, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed. We don't need to stick to the neologism line any more. Both "saffron terror" and "Hinduva terror" are well-established terms now, and they can be used interchangeably. But "Hindu terrorism" (Iskandar's favourite) is a wooly, ill-defined idea. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:10, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

  I have not problem with "Hindutva terror", which is also more recognizable and descriptive; hence why I illustrated it as one of the alternatives in the move discussion, and I do appreciate the point that it is a slightly tighter term. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:49, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I disagree that "Hindutva Terror" is a more recognisable term than "Saffron Terror" ; The search results seem to substantiate that rather clearly. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 10:16, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

As of 2022 in scholarly sources "Saffron terror" is still a neologism. The article already has a broader scope. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 12:38, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

If the best recent mention for 'neologism' is in a footnote in an only tangentially related 2021 article about the Discursive Practices of Digital (Counter)Publics, then I think that really proves the opposite point. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:42, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I also disagree about Hindutva terror. We need to use WP:COMMONNAME and The term hindutva is understood and used only by a handful of people who are already familiar with the phenomenon. An average Joe, esp. outside India, he'd be searching for "Hindu terrorism".

Also worth repeating RegentsPark's observation that the term Saffron terror is used to denote Buddhist terrorism in certain countries. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:37, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

That is a non-point. People searching for "Hindu terrorism" come here via redirects. The page title should correctly describe this topic and this page. If you title it as "Hindu terrorism" then how will you define it? What will you include here and what will you exclude? Flippant claims of WP:COMMONNAME don't write a page for you. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:48, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: That the redirect comes here implies that no one has a problem with that association and that this topic is already the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for 'Hindu terrorism'. I have no seen any information that suggest otherwise. What are the examples of 'Hindu terrorism' that one could not also categorize as 'Hindutva terrorism'? Iskandar323 (talk) 04:44, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

You are ignoring the main issue here. You are mixing "Hindu" and "Hindutva" by ignoring the differences between the two. "Hindu" is a religion; "Hindutva" is a political ideology. The entire contents of the page are regarding the ideology and the followers of the ideology who have been accused of terror. Your claim of "recognizability" and COMMONNAME has been clearly dismissed in the discussion above. If you are unable to even declare what you think "Hindu Terror" is, or able to find quality articles on it, then that "renamed" article is bound to be about Saffron terror, mislabeled as Hindu terror. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 06:50, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Ignoring the obvious mistakes here, i.e. "Hindu" is either an adherent or an adjective for Hinduism rather than the religion itself, Hindutva is routinely translated as "Hindu-ness" and is semantically barely a hop and a skip away from the former. It adds a little precision in the context, in that it hones in on 'Hindu nationalism' more specifically, but in essence it is little different from defining, for example, Islamic terrorism as "Muslim-ness terrorism", i.e.: terrorism associated with the assertion through violence of a Muslim, a.k.a. Islamic, identity. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

A very wordy semantic argument that establishes nothing; your assumption that Hindu and Hindutva are interchangeable is incorrect by a mile. At which point your argument falls apart completely. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 10:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I did not say they were interchangeable, but in this specific context, there is little meaningful distinction in much of the literature, and for obvious reasons. I do not disagree that there might be a meaningful distinction to be made, which is why I've said "Hindutva terrorism" is also workable. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Hindutva terror is equivalent to Saffron terror, except it is a barely used term with even fewer supporting sources than "Hindu terror". Makes no sense to make that change. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 11:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

'Barely used' it is not. There are numerous scholarly sources on Hindutva terrorism, including: Confronting the Reality of Hindutva Terrorism, Pawns In, Patrons Still Out: Understanding the Phenomenon of Hindutva Terror, The Rise of Hindutva, Saffron Terrorism and South Asian Regional Security (and don't be misled by the title on this one - the article states: "Using adversarial threat analysis framework, the paper first establishes Hindutva terror as a potent threat...", etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

The irony of the fact aside, that you have to rely on articles titles "Saffron Terror" to try and show how "Hindutva terror" is more common than the former; your own search results that you used to start this RFC clearly prove that in comparison to Saffron Terror, Hindutva terror is a barely used term. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 16:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Well it sure beats relying on just making the same impoverished straw man arguments over and over again. For the umpteenth time, you should see overlap of the terms in sources, given that they are the same bloody subject. That is a good thing. Everything that I have said on this page hinges on this assumption. That a source says "Saffron Terror" in the title and then goes on to describe the subject as about "Hindutva terror" then that tells you what I have been saying all along, which is that "Saffron" is very pretty sounding, but when it gets down to the nitty gritty of actually explaining the subject, more precise, descriptive terminology is required - and hence why my entire premise is based on WP:NDESC - again for the umpteenth time. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:15, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

What you have argued in above para is a non issue. No one disputes that "Saffron" is the same as "Hindutva". Dont know where you got that impression, but everyone agrees on that point here. If you had bothered to read my response a few paras above, Hindutva terror is equivalent to Saffron terror.

The incorrect argument you are making, is that "Hindutva" is a better title than "Saffron"; your own Ngrams that you provided crushes the argument of "recognizability"; your claims of WP:NDESC makes no sense as "Saffron" is not a judgmental phrase, and the mountain of research on the term substantiates that it is a better descriptor of the material on this page.

You might say it is being repeated the "umpteenth time", but it is the wrong argument being repeated the umpteenth time - Being said multiple times does not make the argument correct. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 17:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Another strawman. The DESC in NDESC stands for 'descriptive', not non-judgemental. I.e. Hindu or Hindutva are words that do what they say on the tin; "Saffron" is a flower, colour, and an allegory for all things Buddhist, Hindu, and, in the case of terror, usually Hindutva terror (though sometimes Buddhist too). Iskandar323 (talk) 06:37, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I hope you know what "strawman" means; an argument that refutes the entirety of your argument is not a strawman. As for the NDESC part, I think you need to re read the policy, and do it more carefully this time. The policy does not dictate that we must have descrptive titles (which is what you seem to have understood of it). It simply points out that a descriptive title may be appropriate in some scenarios, and if so, we should make sure it is neutral and non judgmental. Since in this case the proposed title is clearly worse (read the multitudes of arguments above), the policy does not apply on the proposed title; As Saffron is not judgemental, it does not apply to the current title. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 12:29, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

The proposal is not clearly worse - though if that's your interpretation that is fine. There are a variety of different discussions ongoing on this page, not least the point about "Saffron" as terminology containing a high degree of ambiguity between Buddhist and Hindu cultural references. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:14, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

See, this is a strawman, and a good example of it. Take note for your own edification. You are responding simply to the part about "clearly worse", while ignoring the thrust of the argument, which is about NDESC being used here as your primary argument; or in your own words, your "entire premise is based on WP:NDESC". Now that you have (hopefully) read the policy you were quoting, it should be easy to realize that NDESC is a policy to decide what titles qualify as a possibility, not what the title should be ; As such, the correct thing from a good faith editor would be to accept the error instead of hand waving about there being "a variety of different discussions" on the page. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 16:56, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

This is reminiscent of the discussion about Islamic terrorism vs Islamist terrorism. The consensus there was to use Islamic. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:41, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

And that page clearly defines what the term means! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:12, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

When the discussion about Islamic terrorism vs Islamist terrorism happened, it had already been seven years since 9/11. “Saffron/Hindu terror” is yet to have its 9/11 moment. (Not to imply that violence—especially political and communal—by Hindus isn’t a well-established phenomena, but it is covered under Hindutva, or under Hindu nationalism, which are infinitely more well-defined than this ill-defined neologism.) UnpetitproleX (talk) 21:54, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Sorry, could you explain the connection between this thread and the neutrality tag that you've insisted on restoring. I started this thread over one of your reverts and I never restored my edit, so what's the neutrality issue now? Iskandar323 (talk) 14:25, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Draft a well-sourced lead paragraph, setting out the "Hindu terrorism" narrative. (And drop lawyer-politicians of the previous century. They are not reliable sources for anything.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:41, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I mean ... I could draft a lead, and so could you, but that suggestion isn't an answer to my question, which was: what is the current, outstanding neutrality issue that you have tagged the article for? Iskandar323 (talk) 15:35, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

• Kautilya, what does this edit summary even mean? If you believe the outcome of the move request is inappropriate, then challenge the closure at move review or AN. Otherwise, the closure needs to be respected. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:48, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
  • As I said above, draft a lead paragraph setting out what the topic is, and what it is supposed to mean. Right now, a POV title has been tagged on to a practically dead topic, and you guys believe it all makes sense. I am not convinced. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:54, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

    You have added a tag because you disagreed with an RFC; this remains inappropriate, because you have not described objections to the content as it stands. Absent such objections, anyone should feel free to remove the tag. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:46, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

    I have added the tag because of the content of the page, as it exists, is POV-ridden. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:36, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

    Perhaps you could be more specific so that editors can know/address the problem. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:55, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

    You need to explain that, Kautilya. An assertion is not enough. Vanamonde (Talk) 01:37, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

    The title is "Hindu terror" yet there is not a single own-voice use of the term "hindu terrorism" in the article, and no discussion of ostensible hindu terrorism, as one of the world's religious terrorisms—only discussion of "saffron terror" as the neologism that it is, clearly anchored in the realm of political discourse. And there is a list of incidents with a tenuous relation to the preceding prose. To then insert "hindu terrorism" in the first sentence seems like an original conclusion that the article covers and explains hindu terrorism. At the same time, it's widely known that there is broad disagreement about hindu terrorism (denoting religious terrorism) as a notion. It is different from terrorism by the hindutva (religious-nationalist terrorism). The POV tendency here is to insert one's opinion that, as many great religions each have their terrorism, hinduism must also have its terrorism. —Alalch E. 09:02, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

    I sort of agree - the article is missing at least a few paragraphs on all those (unfortunately) daily acts aimed at terrorising religious minorities in India – attacks on mosques[30], burning of churches[31], etc. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:09, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

    @Kashmiri: In the RM you wrote: The phenomenon of Hinduism-motivated terrorism is well documented and this article needs to allow adding such content – Hindu terrorist acts not strictly linked with Hindutva ideology. Of all the proposed titles, only Hindu terrorism captures it well. This cycles back to the few paragraphs that we have discussed and that I also consider to be (critically) missing. You should not wait for the RM to conclude so as to give you a license to add what you believe to be missing. Would you like to start writing those paragraphs? Would you share some more sources so that I might start writing them? —Alalch E. 08:31, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

    @Alalch E. I'm afraid I might not be able to do anything here for the next couple of days due to WP:REALLIFE commitments. I don't have sources at hand and tend to rely on Google searches; online sources are also easiest to verify. Please feel free to go ahead, and I'll do whatever I can to support. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:38, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Ref

I went through this ref. The source does not contain any reference to Hindu Terror, and the only mention of Saffron Terror is the title. The body is about the 2002 riots, and the only reference to terror in the article does not mention Hinduism, Hindutva or Saffron. It seems like WP:OR to extrapolate any reference from the source when the article is not about the topic at hand. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 07:14, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Here's a secondary source, e.g.: Jahangir, J.; Mehmood, S. (2022). "Saffron Terrorism in India" (PDF). Research Journal of Political Science. 11.: :"Praveen Swami, an Indian journalist, coined the term "Saffron terror" for the first time in 2002." Iskandar323 (talk) 08:40, 25 April 2023 (UTC)