Talk:History of the New York State College of Forestry

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Suggested Title Change[edit]

Hello, good to see this new entry taking shape. To prevent confusion, I suggest that its name be changed, to: "History of the New York State College of Forestry". The "New York State College of Forestry" ceased to exist in its most recent form ("at Syracuse University") with the establishment of the State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry. It is be appropriate for the present entry to begin with the original establishment of the New York State College of Forestry at Cornell University, which is said to be the first forestry college in the United States (plaque to that effect in Fernow Hall, at Cornell University, but have not verified). Anyway, best wishes with this entry; I do recommend the above name-change, however. Lastly, it's my understanding of Wikipedia protocol, etiquette & guidelines that contributors should register their names... Thanks. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 19:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Name changed to "History of the New York State College of Forestry" for clarity. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 22:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Overlap with Other Page; Consolidation?[edit]

This page seems to overlap to a certain degree with the New York State College of Forestry at Cornell article. I wonder, Can these two articles can be consolidated? DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 15:36, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, this particular discussion has been resolved in favor of maintaining the two separate entries. The present article is the broader of the two, including the history of the college not only at Cornell but also at Syracuse University. Still there remains a place for an article specifically on its history at Cornell. With careful editing over time, the two can be complementary rather than redundant. My 'vote' is to maintain the two pages. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 09:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some material on the continuation of forestry studies at Cornell moved from this article to New York State College of Forestry at Cornell. Though still related, there is now a more clear distinction between the two articles. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 13:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Breaking New Ground[edit]

There is no clear relation this newly added section and the overall subject matter of the article.DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 23:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Section removed, not appropriate on this page; should be added elsewhere... DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 23:06, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This section has been put back in, without explanation. Despite the opening sentence, the section has little to nothing to do with the subject of this article. Please explain/ discuss here... Thanks, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 19:46, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Section spun off to new article, History of Papermaking in New York. Additional contributions welcome there! DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 13:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed Claim[edit]

Two institutions, the New York State College of Forestry at Cornell and the Biltmore Forest School, both are said to be "the first" forestry school in North America. Both were founded in 1898. Which one was first? Which graduated the first foresters? Answers to these questions will establish the accuracy of claims made at the onset of this article. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 23:06, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's difficult to say; after some quick Googling, I've found that they both officially opened in September 1898, although many more sources refer to Biltmore as the first forestry school in North America, rather than Cornell. Perhaps they're going on the dates when the schools were first conceived of -- March of the same year for Cornell, but I'm not sure about Biltmore. More verifiable sources for both articles are surely needed. María (habla conmigo) 13:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This claim is made also for/ by a third school, the Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies, founded in 1900. Perhaps it is true that the first post-graduate school of forestry in the U.S. was at Yale. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 11:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recap and update: both the Biltmore Forest School & the New York State College of Forestry were founded in 1898. Biltmore is referred to variously as "school" and "college"; it seems clear, however, that it had but one year of practically oriented coursework in forestry. By contrast, the New York State College of Forestry appears to have been the first, four-year college of forestry in the United States. As of yet, it is unclear to me whether it was Biltmore or the NYS College of Forestry that first offered courses in forestry. Biltmore is widely promoted as "The Cradle of Forestry" in the United States. Yale appears to have been first to offer postgraduate coursework, towards the Master of Forestry degree, in the United States; it also has legitimate claim to the title of "oldest, continually operating college of forestry in the United States", since Biltmore ceased operations after a couple of decades, and the NYS College of Forestry at Cornell was defunded in 1905, and reestablished at Syracuse University only six years later, in 1911. Still trying to track down specific dates when Biltmore & the NYS College of Forestry at Cornell first offered their respective classes. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 19:03, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Closing in: Biltmore's first classes began on September 1, 1898. The NYS College of Forestry commenced classes in "autumn 1898". On what date did Cornell's 1898 fall term begin?
Fourth claimant: Michigan State University claims to have the "longest continuously operating forestry undergraduate program in the United States" -- its program commenced in 1902. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 13:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RESOLVED: I am now fairly convinced that the Biltmore Forest School was the first, by just a few weeks, to open its doors. The New York State College of Forestry was arguably the first professional forestry school in the United States.DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 01:26, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merger[edit]

On 6 September 2009, I started New York State College of Forestry at Cornell. On 26 October, User:Milgrom started New York State College of Forestry which largely duplciated the first article. In November, the article was moved to History of the New York State College of Forestry. Some might view this article as a POV-fork of the New York State College of Forestry at Cornell. It is not clear whether the article is intended as a history of the school at Syracuse or of the school at Cornell. I suggest we keep the Cornell article, and perhaps add the post-1903 history to the State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry. Racepacket (talk) 23:17, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, while I did not start the current article, I am aware of the overlap between it and the Cornell-related article, I would not support returning the post-1903 history to the ESF page. In fact, there was too much extraneous history on that page in the first place, which is much more suited to the present page, or a merger of it and the Cornell page. It's a fascinating history, cross-cutting Cornell and Syracuse Universities, as well as ESF. But while very interesting, it is appropriately situated distinctly from one focusing primarily on ESF today.DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 02:14, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also completely agree with the concern of overlapping. As can be seen in recent edits, including the repeated removal of the merge-discussion template[1], this article is being owned by an anonymous IP who refuses to discuss any changes to the article. This is unfortunate, because the school's history is indeed interesting and of great historical importance. As the article currently is, however, it needs judicious clean-up and weeding to focus its contents on the history of ESF, not other schools. While their history certainly intersects, it's confusing and overreaching as it is now. Any edits to help trim and focus would be greatly beneficial. María (habla conmigo) 18:27, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've just added a new lead per WP:LEAD, to actually try to summarize the article. Feel free to expand or clarify as needed. I've also warned the recent editing IP that edit warring is not acceptable, and that the template should remain until the discussion here has reached a consensus. María (habla conmigo) 18:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for adding a new lead; very helpful. I've refined it further. The New York College of Forestry has a fascinating, complex history that involves Cornell, Syracuse University, the SUNY system, and what today is SUNY-ESF. My view is that this interesting history is best addressed in a stand-alone 'history' article, with cross-references as appropriate to these various institutions. It would be a disservice to the others to merge it into just one. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 12:30, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have re-read the New York State College of Forestry at Cornell article, which has been expanded since the last time I looked at it. I find that, indeed, there is overlap between that article and this one. As currently structured, one would have to read both articles to get a fuller picture. I'm not sure how it would best be done, but while maintaining stand-alone articles or stubs, I think it would be best to consolidate the broad history into the present one, which I view as the more integrative of the two. Somewhat separately, the narratives of both articles are rather meandering and disjointed, going off on a variety of tangents, and would benefit from close editing. All this notwithstanding, it's a fascinating history, with significant implications for the history of forestry education, forest conservation, and more. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 11:40, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two steps forward, one step back; this article isn't going to achieve anything if the ever changing anonymous IP editor continuously adds off-topic and/or trivial information, all the while refusing to discuss their edits. I've just removed a completely unnecessary section titled "Epilogue", detailing the personal life of Cornell's founder, who died long before either university's forestry programs began. As much as I agree that this subject matter is interesting and important, I'm afraid this article will continue to degrade despite best efforts, and some wonderful changes on your part, DA. María (habla conmigo) 15:25, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved, I believe. See note above, under "Overlap with Other Page; Consolidation?" DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 10:36, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additional Section Needed[edit]

Reading Louis Marshall's correspondence regarding the New York State College of Forestry at Syracuse University, I note that an additional section, entitled something like "Cornell fights back" or "Controversy ensues", would be appropriate in this article. Apparently, the first years of the college, reestablished at Syracuse University, were mired in legislative battles and inquiries over whether public funding was going to a (then) Methodist institution (Syracuse University), and whether the latter or the public controlled the college. Through Marshall's eyes, as President of the college's board of trustees, Cornell was jealous of the success of the college at Syracuse University. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 11:06, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New Section Not Helpful[edit]

The recently added (and added again) section, now retitled "Breaking New Ground..." is largely unrelated to the rest of the article. I suggest it be removed. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 01:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This section spun off to new article, History of Papermaking in New York. Additional inputs and contributions welcome there! DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 13:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Article Structure[edit]

I'd like to suggest the following structure for this still-evolving article, organized around key moments in the history of the New York State College of Forestry:

  • Birth at Cornell (1898) - in place
  • Closure at Cornell (1903) - in place
  • Rebirth at Syracuse (1911) - in place
  • Rivalry with Cornell (until 1930) - add
  • Realignment within SUNY (from 1948) - stub, develop further
  • Broadened mission, to include environmental science (from 1972) - add
  • New frontiers in the 21st century - add

I'd welcome comments & suggestions on the above from fellow editors, registered and Anon. Thanks. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 22:26, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Focus of Article?[edit]

What is (or should be) the focus of this article? In my view, its primary focus should be on the interesting and complex institutional history of the New York State College of Forestry. To do that, and to do it well, is no small task. At the same time, there have been so many significant individuals who, in one way or another, have had something to do with this institution, it is also interesting and useful to mention them and their roles, at least in respect to the institution. But, in my view, it is important to keep the focus here on the institution. With various additions to this article, there is a tendency to go beyond the institutional history into a whole series of vignettes or mini-biographical notes on various individuals involved. I would recommend spinning some of these off to separate biographical articles -- in a number of cases these already exist and can be linked to; in other cases, there are stubs that can be elaborated; in yet other cases, this may mean creating new biographical articles. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 10:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've made a couple of edits in this direction, for Raphael Zon and Frederick Campion Steward, relocating material to their respective biographical articles that is better there. More needs to be done, including for Nelson Courtlandt Brown, the recently added Samuel N. Spring, and others. As interesting as it is, biographical material should be in biographical articles, not in this institutional history. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 11:13, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Additional edits now made, including for Brown and Spring, with a new article created for the latter; and much of the material on the continuation of forestry studies at Cornell after the official closure of the New York State College of Forestry at Cornell relocated, more appropriately, to the the latter. The two articles are now more clearly distinct, I think. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 10:32, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The one remaining section in this article as presently structured that is not clearly connected to the History of the New York State College of Forestry is the section on 'Wood Utilization'. It starts out okay, contrasting the programs at Cornell and in Syracuse, but then goes off on a tangent that never comes back. Perhaps the solution for this is creation of a new, spin-off article on History of Papermaking in New York. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 10:32, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

New article created on History of Papermaking in New York, xfer'ing tangential material from this article.DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 11:17, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Defunding of the College at Cornell[edit]

This is an important and tricky moment in the history of the New York State College of Forestry to address in this article. More than a century later, embers of the controversy remain. Given the challenges of that episode and writing about it today from a neutral point of view, I'd suggest that issues about how best to strengthen coverage of that period be discussed first on this talk page. Important to stick to the historical facts, even while accurately depicting the different perspectives from the time. Thanks, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 05:04, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The following section is relevant, but needs careful contextualization to make sense, since it occured in 1910, seven years after the college was defunded.

During the Brooklyn Cooperage trial, a forester on Chief Pinchot's staff, Charles S. Chapman, testified on behalf of the plaintiff. He testified that between the two silvicultural methods that might have been adopted—the "selection system" of choosing individual trees for felling or the "clear cutting" and replanting system—"Fernow had erred in changing to the clear cutting and replanting method."

For it to make sense, the relationship between Cornell and the Brooklyn Cooperage Company also needs to be clearly established. Thanks, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 07:59, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One approach that I would suggest is creating a separate article on the lawsuit. Then this article could link to that one without getting too sidetracked from its main focus. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 08:05, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New, spin-off article created: People v. the Brooklyn Cooperage Company. Contributions welcome! With this new article, perhaps the present article can be streamlined a bit. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 13:22, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Corrections needed: lawsuit title and dates[edit]

Also noted while creating the new article: the Brooklyn Cooperage Co. trial dates in this article are incorrect. The apellate court's decision was given on July 12, 1906. Don't have a date yet for the lower court's decision. But it is clearly not 1910 and 1912, respectively, as stated here. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 14:15, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

... and the official title appears to be: "People v. the Brooklyn Cooperage Company". In the New York Times article, Cornell is mentioned (as "with Cornell University impleded"), but not in the formal title of the case... DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 14:21, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of changes[edit]

I've completed a major edit and update of the section "Defunding of the College", taking into account the new, spun-off article, People v. the Brooklyn Cooperage Company. Material sourced for the revised section came from earlier versions of both this article and the related New York State College of Forestry at Cornell article. I tried to take the best, verifiable material from each, while composing a coherent narrative. Since the College was defunded and closed in mid-1903, it is difficult in the context of this article to address the outcomes of the related lawsuit (settled three years later, in 1906), and its broader implications; thus part of the reason for the spin-off article. Further streamlining of this section may be warranted. Additional information on the interesting and noteworthy legal case, trial, and its long-term implications should be incorporated in the spin-off article rather than here, in my view. The new edits here should address the "corrections needed" mentioned in the previous section. Thanks, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 13:07, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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