Talk:Horned God/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Origins of Christian depictions of Satan

Any idea when or where the Christian description of Satan having cloven hoofs and horns began? I haven't a clue. Wesley 19:49 Sep 19, 2002 (UTC)

The Christians actually created the idea of Satan by demonizing the god that the Wiccans worshiped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.119.219.119 (talk) 01:30, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Satan isn't wholly evil in the Judaic tradition. The Book of Job describes Satan as a rival to YHWH, but not necessarily a malicious entity. User:Waxmop

In fact it could be argued that the udaic Satan actually works for Yahweh as a sort of divine Prosecuting Attorney or (pun intended) "devil's advocate"--Tricksterson 17:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

This is all a modern garble, so that a subtle reference to syncretism is only fair to the reader. Fortunately the revised entry Satan answers some puzzles. But this kind of sentence:

During the rise of Christianity, Literature attributed the image of the Horned God in the form of Satan... To hear tell, Christianity just rose like Sourdough, while I was sitting in the parlor reading my favorite author, Literature, who attributes images in the form ... Wetman 08:00, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

According to Ronald Hutton (our favourite author... not) in Triumph of the Moon early depictions of Satan were more often bull-horned, with clawed feet, long ears and webbed wings; the Pan-like depiction seems to be a nineteenth-century creation, representing a Christian reaction to the growing importance of Pan as an alternative focus for the literary imagination. (p. 46) I don't know whether that's more reliable than any of his other claims, but it sounds OK... Something that Hutton doesn't mention is that this Pan-like physiognomy was once a common depiction of John the Baptist, clearly recalling some earlier pagan Jack-in-the-Green type of deity. Also worth mentioning that John and Jesus were examples of the Oak and Holly Kings that Frazer wrote of. Anyway, I'm tired, I should get some sleep rather than haranguing poor Hutton. Fuzzypeg 13:48, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

The idea that the Devil has a cloven hoof (or hooves) goes back at least to the early 17th century, when Jonne Donne alluded to it in "Go and Catch a Falling Star." My guess is that it goes back much further than that. 65.213.77.129 (talk) 15:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Edit war

Please stop the edit war, both of you. You know who you are. This is getting ridiculous, when cited information is deleted as uncited by multiple parties. FWIW, I think both parties should cease editing this page, neither is going to come to consensus on it, and this article will end up being protected.--Vidkun (talk) 16:18, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you offering assistance in a dispute-resolution capacity? That might help. --Davémon (talk) 16:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I'll tell you, honestly, I'll be useless in DR for this. I wish I could help on it, but there's no way I can be cool enough for it, and I know my habits - I'll make it worse. I'd like to see the article better, but don't have sources at hand myself to help.--Vidkun (talk) 16:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. If we can all agree to build on the article as it stands today using wp:rs that directly address the subject, then I'll be happy. --Davémon (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't see an actual edit war here. I see constructive debate between Davemon and Fuzzypeg. This entails the occasional revert, but we haven't reached a stage where both sides are just reverting to their preferred version. This is the way Wikipedia is supposed to work. Controversy is good. The article will end up substantially improved. --dab (𒁳) 17:10, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see an occasional revert, I see mass deletions - which is why I'm not disinterested enough to be involved in DR for it.--Vidkun (talk) 17:17, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
We're not deleting any mass. I have taken the step of splitting content to a new article becuase Fuzzypeg deleted some of it from this article. The content wasn't sourced to a wp:rs which directly discussed it in relation to the subject. However, it was sourced, so it's better that content is kept somewhere rather than just deleted because it doesn't quite fit here. Fuzzypeg may have a different attitude. Davémon (talk) 17:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I already have stopped editing. I appealed for help to a few different noticeboards, and got bugger-all response, and I really don't have the time or emotional capacity to continue this battle on my own. I've been restricting myself to the talk page for a long time (with the exception of those few recent edits which Davemon reverted) but my comments here seem to be wasted, so I might just just follow Bloodofox's lead, slip out altogether and return to rigpa.
Dbachmann, this is an edit war and worse. You haven't been following this very well if you think it's just stimulating debate. Either that or you're made of sterner stuff than I am, and enjoy argument for its own sake. This isn't what advances Wikipedia, this is what derails it and convinces decent editors to find other, more enjoyable things to spend their time on. Fuzzypeg★ 03:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
The reason I removed Doreen's drawing of Atho is because I would like that image removed as it violates the fair use policy. That is not a thumbnail but a high resolution. In fact I think it is even better image than in my copy of ABC of Witchcraft. Could some one here please replace the image of Atho with a thumbnail and get the high quality image removed?. Covenofathos (talk) 02:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

How come there is no mention of the ancient middle east?

Horns were a sign of divinity in the ancient middle east. This can be seen by almost all the gods of ancient Ugarit being depicted as having horns. Considering Ugarit directly influenced Judaism which then directly influenced Christianity and thus the most common Satan depiction in modern times, this seems to be a vital fact not to be mentioned.24.190.34.219 (talk) 22:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

This article is specifically regarding the Wiccan deity. If you have sources that cite the Wiccan Horned God being influenced by the ancient middle east, that content would be very welcome here. The general article that discusses all the different horned gods is horned deities. I think the middle east gods influencing some depictions of satan would belong there. --Davémon (talk) 16:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Horned God not related to Inanna's Descent

The reference to (Sumerian) Inanna's Descent has been removed, because the myth has nothing to do with the Horned God. The myth tells the story of Inanna's descent into the Underworld. The Underworld is not Hell, though the removed text confuses the two. Further, Inanna descends to communicate with Ereshkigal, the (female) Queen of the Underworld, and not any horned god. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WingedEarth (talk • contribs) 20:47, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Dispute Use Of Baphomet Illustration

The choice for using the illustration of Baphomet is an extremely poor choice for the subject matter, especially as Wiccans feel the need to seperated their religion from anything percieved as "Satanic".

Images of the Greek God Pan, the bull-horned Greek God Dionysus, the Celtic Cernunnos, Herne the Hunter, Horned Puck, Horned Neolithic Deities, or even images of Horned Satyrs would more closely represent the Horned God as worshipped by Wiccans.

I move to remove the illustration of Baphomet.BoyintheMachine (talk) 02:56, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree that its misleading to put any pre-wiccan image as the primary image on the page. Perhaps move Baphomet down to the "historical Origins" section where it mentions Levi, and get an actual Wiccan originated HG image for the intro. Davémon (talk) 22:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Baphomet really has nothing to do with Wicca or the Horned God. The Horned God of Wicca more closely related to Pan, a nature god. Levi's depiction of Baphomet is based upon Judeo-Christian iconography, whereas the Horned God is based upon Gallic, Greek, and Norse tradition. The prominent picture of Baphomet, put on this page to smear Wicca as a Devil worshipping religion ought to be removed. In fact, I'm going to remove it now. --WingedEarth (talk) 19:12, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, no. Baphomet is seen by witchcraft scholars as a precurosr to the development of "The Horned God" by Murray, which was then co-opted by Wicca. Baphomet isn't related to Devil Worshipping at all. Davémon (talk) 17:57, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Cult of Ammon / Alexander the Great

I've removed these two sections, as they both cover Gods with horns, but aren't specifically related to the development of the "Horned God" this article is about. Of course, if there is scholarship that does show that the Cult of Ammon or the horned depictions of Alexander the Great influenced Murray or Gardners development of their concept then these topics should come back into the article. --Davémon (talk) 16:26, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I believe that Amun (Ammon) and Alexander the Great came before Murray and Gardner. People worshipped a "Horned God" thousands of years before Witchcraft or Wicca. --Camocon (talk) 17:26, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Careful please everyone, this looks like edit-warring with a lot of reversions and not much talking. Please discuss any further content disputes here rather than just adding/subtracting text. There's no urgency about this. My two penn'orth: there have been a lot of very valuable additions lately to this article but it is, as the lede suggests, an article about the Wiccan God and not all Horned Gods in general. So maybe some of the detail has strayed a little too far from the main topic? Do we in fact need a fork to the wider concept of horned gods in general? Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 17:44, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
There are many, many gods in many different cultures and times that have horns, but they're not all related to each other, even if some came first and others later. I agree there is a lot of good stuff, but it just doesn't belong in this article (which is about the Wiccan god). I suggest that the Amun and the Alexander the Great articles are the right place for the detailed material. There is also the article Horned deity where much of this material would also be very useful. Davémon (talk) 20:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Fantasy and science fiction

The beginning of this article appears to contradict itself a bit. It says:

  1. This article is about the Wiccan deity. For gods with horns or antlers on their heads, see Horned deity.
  2. The Horned God is one of the two primary deities found in some neopagan religions. (It does then go on to discuss Wicca but the lead finishes with "The Horned God has been explored within several psychological theories, and has become a recurrent theme in fantasy literature.")

If the first statement is the intention of the article, I wonder if the "Fantasy and science fiction" actually belongs in the horned deity article as it is not specifically (or at all) Wiccan. If the second statement is in fact what was intended, then the first statement needs rephrasing. I don't know the answer so I haven't edited anything. SueTwo (talk) 19:23, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I share your uncertainty about this Sue - I always shudder a bit when I see a new addition to an 'in popular culture' section. I certainly don't think this section belongs here as it's not, as you point out, about the Wiccan deity. Whether it has any place at Horned deity or not is another matter; my personal taste says not, but I don't have that article on my watchlist and no very strong views about it. If we don't get anyone else chiming in here, I suggest either of us should move it in a day or so. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 20:01, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Several fantasy authors have been inspired by Wicca. Marion Zimmer Bradley, for example was a wiccan, and founder member of the Darkmoon Circle (a feminist wiccan coven). Please check the citations before deciding whether something is relevant or not. I'm confident most of the cites expressly mention Wiccan deity as either an influence or a parallel. This isn't so much an "in popular culture section", as an influence of a religion on literature, and literatures influence on the development of a religion, as cited in reliable sources. Such sections do tend to attract uncited and quite spurious comparisons, and those should definitely be removed. --Davémon (talk) 14:58, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm absolutely with you on MZB, who cites Wicca as an influence in her preface to Mists of Avalon. But that's only three lines of the existing section. None of the rest is relevant to the Wiccan deity - although I accept that there's a place elsewhere in Wikipedia for reference to the Piper at the Gates of Dawn chapter from Wind in the Willows. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 15:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Hi Davémon. Maybe it's just the way the section is written but I'm distracted by remarks including:
  • an unnamed, generic horned deity
  • The collective subconscious image of the horned aliens
  • mankind's image of the devil or Satan
  • a "race-memory" of psychic Martian grasshoppers
Are you in a position to express in the article your confidence that most of the cites expressly mention Wiccan deity, or is that an unfair request? I grumble to myself about editors who try to create work for others to do and now I'm doing it myself. At least I managed to format these indented bullets :) SueTwo (talk) 23:38, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Well, as I'm suggesting we retain this material, it is kind of is my job to prove it is legitimate! From memory I think Huttons argument is that the wiccan Horded God concept grew out of a cultural milieu that had turned Pan into a generic 'Horned God' and that Kenneth Graeme's 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn' was an example of that, so I would say its inclusion is relevant here, although possibly not in the form it currently takes. It is hard to come to editorial consensus unless all the editors invovled are looking at the sources, so I do encourage you to check for yourself. I can't recall the detail of the Quatermass and the Pit article, and will have to go and look it up, but it does seem a bit of a stretch really. Davémon (talk) 15:27, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

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Tubal-Cain

Tubal-Cain wasn't a blacksmith. He didn't work iron. How could he, he was a character in a bronze age culture. Somebody should change that. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 06:23, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

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