Talk:Humphrey Bogart/Archive 1

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House of Un-American activities

More information is needed here I think because this was a particularly controversial moment in American history.

Casblanca

Moved section on Casablanca to that page.

Hagiography

Lots of well-written, informative material here, but veers towards hagiography. It needs revising with the neutral point of view in mind, specifically the section about artistic figures. --Robert Merkel

Original?

Is all of this work original? It sounds maybe copyrighted? If not, I apologize. -- Zoe

I'd like to know, too. Parts of it sound overly laudatory, and I've been dipping in occasionally to try to tone it down.

One thing to check is a Google exact string search--e.g. just search for "[one striking sentence from the article]". I did that earlier with no results, but may have picked the wrong sentences. Also, there was that fracas over the poet, where someone took an article from Wikipedia, reposted it, and accuse us of a violation. But, anyway, it's a place to start. --KQ 14:30 Aug 6, 2002 (PDT)

The author has posted to my talk page asserting that it's original. --KQ 05:16 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)


The part about "primarily smart, playful and reckless characters anchored by an inner moral code while surrounded by a corrupt world" is straight from the imdb bio page, under trademark... though i dont know who wrote that so its hard to say if theres a problem here BBnet3000 04:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Organization

Could somebody please add some kind of organization to this sprawling article? Thanks.

Well, when someone interested in seeing some organization comes along, it will be organized. Hey, you're interested in seeing some organization... ;-) --Stephen Gilbert 15:19 Oct 1, 2002 (UTC)

Date of birth

I looked into this article while writing about Bogart for the Polish Wikipedia. Boy, the birth date is wrong ! By making a cursory web research I have found out that the correct birth date is December 25 and the January 23 date is an example of urban legend.
Kpjas Wed, 18 Dec 2002 22:06:20 +0100

Length

Some of the anecdotes in the story are very interesting and do indeed serve to keep the reader captivated, but I think it makes the article a little too lengthy. I'm very ambivalent about this. What's the perfect length and comprehensiveness of an article? Kent Wang 12:18, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

His Early Life

A minor nit here, but when discussing his mother the article mentions: "In her prime, she made over $50,000 a year as an illustrator, then a vast sum for a woman to earn." Is that an inflation-adjusted figure? If not, and Maud Humphrey really did pull down $50k at the beginning of the 20th century, that is a vast sum of money period.

    • The article says that his mother was politically a "Tory". Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no American Tory Party. If his mother was born in England, making her able to be a Tory, then it should be stated that she was British.
    • Also..regarding his lisp in this section, lips do not have a role in creating lisps...therefore a splinter in his lip would have no effect on his speech. That needs to be corroborated or removed. Saucybetty 22:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

== Captions ==

File:Casablanca bogie henreid topstairs.jpg
Love for the same woman complicated the relationship between Rick and Victor Laslo (Henreid) in "Casablanca".

I couldn't figure out why to include a second Casablanca picture in the article and struggled with writing a good caption for it. Feel free to put it back if you can make it fit without being redundant and with a good caption. Caption guidance is at Wikipedia:Captions. -- ke4roh 01:47, Aug 22, 2004 (UTC)

The caption is more about the film than the actor; should perhaps be on the film's page, but no reason for it here. MisfitToys 00:30, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)

Request for references

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 16:35, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Non-smoking picture

How about using a picture that doesn't promote this deadly habit.

On the contrary, I think people should see Bogart smoking and know that this resulted in his death aged 57. Also, pictures of Bogart without a cigarette are quite rare!

Agreed, he was an inveterate smoker, and purposely removing a picture of him smoking smacks of revisionism.Saucybetty 22:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Nobody has ever died of smoking. Google "the black lung lie" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.254.209.121 (talk) 05:39, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

  • Millions have died from smoking. Take your conspiracy theories somewhere else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arcanicus (talk • contribs) 16:22, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Don't Bogart that joint, my friend...

...is it worth mentioning that his on-screen habit of letting cigarettes burn at length led to The Fraternity of Man song "Don't Bogart Me" and the phrase "Don't Bogart that joint," meaning "pass the joint around because it's just being wasted." ?

No, it's not.....I don't think Humphrey Bogart was really "pro mary jane" and it really has nothing to do with the man himself. So why would it be in the article again?--seattlehawk94 (talk) 18:20, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Descent of Bogart

As far as I can find, Bogart wasn't of of English descent but of Dutch descent. Perhaps that should be taken out of the page. His last name was Dutch also, derived from the Dutch last name Bogaert.


More information can be found on these pages. http://cybrary.uwinnipeg.ca/people/dobson/genealogy/famous/Bogart.html http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~nnnotables/zhubo.html

Good article, but I don't think it should be a featured article

I looked at this the other day and decided to come back to mention the inadequacies I noticed at the time. I am very surprised to find this is a featured article. It is good, but it is missing two rather important things:

  • The years between Casablanca and The African Queen - about half of his prime - are largely omitted except in so far as they are seen through the prism of his relationship with Bacall.
  • There is no filmography.

Could someone add these please? Scranchuse 13:32, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, there is a separate filmography, but I don't see why it is separate when filmographies are included in the main article for most actors. Scranchuse 13:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it's good but not great. It would certainly not pass as a featured article now, and I think it should be listed on Wikipedia:Featured article review. The main problems I see are 1. a lack of a lead section. The "overview" section is not suitable as a lead as it goes into too much detail of his iconic status rather than provide a summary of the article. 2. A huge chunk of his career is not discussed, except as "seen through the prism of his relationshipm with Bacall". Absolutely agree. It's also POV, (IMO) to use film titles as headers or subheaders. It's not for us to spotlight which films are worthy of discussion and I think it's generally not a good thing. 3. The structure is a bit haphazard. I'd prefer a simple, straightforward chronology and there are just too many headers and sections anyway. 4. Some of the writing verges on the colloquial rather than the encyclopedic and needs to be more of a news report rather than the conversational, anecdotal style of some areas. Hopefully listing it will allow it to be improved. I don't know much about Bogart, and I have no reference material to fall back on here, so I hope that someone else can help. Rossrs 14:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


Bogart's Parties

There are no sources for any of these stories, so I tagged it "Not Verified" --subliminalis 07:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Quotes?

Every single quote in this article needs citations or sources, otherwise they need to be removed. -- 128.118.74.4 22:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Greatest Male Star of all Time?

Surely, Bogart was a great star, but doesn't the above stated honorific seems excessive? C'mon, how would Chaplin, Fairbanks, Sr. Clark Gable or Ronald Colman feel? Tom Cod 06:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, but it is attributed and sourced.:) I just saw Bogie last night in African Queen so i would tend to agree.--Mantanmoreland 01:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

For sheer acting nobody comes close to Spencer Tracy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.249.132 (talk) 16:36, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Pop Culture

Hi, kids, the Mighty Obbop here. I am shocked all through my innards that no reference has been made regarding a few lyrics inside the song Key Largo performed by Bertie Higgins. Here is a snippet: "We had it all Just like Bogie and Bacall Starring in our old late, late show Sailing away to Key Largo..... Here's lookin' at you kid Missing all the things we didWe can find it once again, I know Just like they did in Key Largo"

Golly gosh shucks almighty... ain't no doubt about it, I just gotta' shout it..... those lyrics are a most definite reference to Hump Bogart!!!!! Surely the song is worthy of inclusion on the main page. I would do it but, too often, I have confronted the anal-retentive weirdos infesting this site who seemingly want only their efforts to appear and ensure that by deleting inclusion by the mere commoners of Webdom. Thus, I, the Mighty Obbop, star of neither stage nor screen and with no need to fill some inner compulsion to be exclusionistic and gain some form of perverted "fame" by being the one to include actual factual context to the main page of a topic do hereby and forewith enter this info on the discussion page so that one of the anal-retentive schmucks can place it on the main page if they wanna'.68.13.191.153 21:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

There are so many dubious references given in the popular culture section, that a number of them will be "pruned". Only when there are significant references to Bogart should these remain. Bzuk 22:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC).


I haven't posted it because I am still tracking down the reference but anyone else that can find it please help me with this pop culture reference. There is actually a pop culture reference from Japanese anime, a Studio Ghibli film to be precise. Somewhere I saw about two years ago it mentioned that Miyazaki Hayao modeled his character of Porco Rosso after many Bogart roles making Porco into a Bogart character, a role he always pictured Bogart playing. Thanks for the help in finding this reference of if it is okay to post as is please someone let me know. Ryokosha Konoe (talk) 00:08, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Citations & References

See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 04:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Too little, Too late

Can someone re-word the odd phrase "Too Little, Too Late" in the section about Bogart's death? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.40.42.251 (talk) 00:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers priority assessment

Per debate and discussion re: assessment of the approximate 100 top priority articles of the project, this article has been included as a top priority article. Wildhartlivie (talk) 10:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Blue eyes?

Was he ever nick-named "blue eyes" in his movies? 156.34.214.87 (talk) 17:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Site of birth?

According to the special features in the DVD of Treasure of the Sierra Madre, Bogart was born at Sloans Maternity Hospital at 59th Street & 9th Avenue, New York. Whats the story on that? I mean, anybody know anything about the hospital? Apparently it no longer exists, or at least not under that name. --Ragemanchoo (talk) 09:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Introduction - Important Movies

What is the Left Hand of God and We're No Angels doing on the list of his important movies, but no Sierra Madre? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.209.122.225 (talk) 09:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Chess

I added this little section, with a reference. It's a little known aspect of the man but seems worthy of a mention. I can't see why anyone would object to this addition. SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 14:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, re-reading the article this addition doesn't seem quite right where is it but I still think the information is worthy of inclusion. I leave to another editor to place it elsewhere as s/he sees fit. Thanks.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 14:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I moved it into a subsection of "Casablanca", the best place I could find, but don't let that stop someone else from finding a better place. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 16:15, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

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I've provided a FUR for this article and removed the non-compliant tag. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 17:13, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

The Ring

In the article it says that Bogart inherited his father's ring, "which he always wore, even in his films" except that I just watched the Maltese Falcon, made seven years after his father died and he clearly is not wearing a ring of any description on either hand. Can this claim really be justified? Cottonshirt (talk) 11:37, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Cultural icon

I think this is one of the few examples where the word "icon" is being used deservedly, and also with sufficient sourcing to back up the claim. I think the way the first sentence is worded "Humphrey DeForest Bogart (December 25, 1899 – January 14, 1957)[1][2] was an American actor and cultural icon" is wrong however. It's not right to say "was.... a cultural icon". His status as an icon has developed over time and has become greater with the years. As an actor, he's definitely in the past tense - ie "was". The first sentence should only state the basics of what the person was or what they did. "Cultural icon" wasn't part of his profession. The other problem I see is that it lacks context, and despite the external sources, it's just a term. I think it would be better to have his posthumous recognition moved to the end of the lede section to act as an anchor for the brief rundown on his career, plus it allows it to be presented in a stronger context, and in chronological order. Just to explain why I'm changing it. Rossrs (talk) 15:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Last words

Just removed the part that said his last words "are believed to have been" (weasel words) "'I should never have switched from scotch to Martinis.'" It's a cool quote, but the citation reference page was a broken link with subscription to NBC and there's no other source. So, let's err on the side of scepticism, shall we? --InformationalAnarchist (talk) 01:34, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Verb tenses

I've reverted the recent edits changing verb tenses from present to past. When discussing the internal workings of a story, film, play, etc., it is proper to use present tense for verbs describing actor's work, character actions, etc. It would be proper to say "Bogart appeared in The Maltese Falcon, in which he plays Sam Spade." Monkeyzpop (talk) 08:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

The Panda Incident

Do we really need a section in this article to describe, in excruciating detail, such a trivial event in Bogart's life? I realize that it is referenced, but is it important enough to merit more than a passing mention? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 19:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. This is remarkably trivial, especially in view of it being an incident in the life of a man who had scores of similar incidents. If there's a consensus building toward removing this, count me in. The way it's set up now makes it look like the Lindbergh kidnapping. Monkeyzpop (talk) 22:06, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I just came across the article today and while I'm not sure the panda incident should be included, the wording now is a little vague and flowery. "She quickly ended up on the floor" isn't as clear as "he was accused of throwing her on the floor." This Guardian article mentions that while the judge threw out the case, he did think Bogart used excessive force. http://century.guardian.co.uk/1940-1949/Story/0,,105145,00.html The Time article also quotes Bacall as being unhappy with Bogart over this http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,800897,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.14.177.210 (talk) 09:16, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, regardless, the incident is very trivial. And, as it has been a week since I made the suggestion, and there has been no objection, I am going to remove it. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 21:36, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Early Film Career

"I wouldn't give you two cents for a dame without a temper", is cited as a quote from Bogart. However as I'm watching "High Sierra", he says the line in the film. Hmmmm. 173.20.57.156 (talk) 17:58, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Bogie vs. Bogey

The Humphrey Bogart Estate just sent this out over Facebook: "It's been misspelt a lot. He decided on it. It's not Bog-ey. He signed with an -ie. And that's good enough for me." - Humphrey Bogart on his friend Spencer Tracy giving him the nickname "Bogie"

Thought this was interesting - that it wasn't just that Bogart himself spelled it that way, but (according to Bogart) that Spencer Tracy actually originally wrote it that way. Anyway, not a massively important note, but I was wondering if anybody else thinks this could be put in? Thanks, AKD157 (talk) 14:13, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

(Belated reply) If you have a reliable source for this it could be considered. But Wikipedia is not a collection of un-sourced trivia. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:33, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

  • It seems that The Humphrey Bogart Estate facebook page is pretty reliable considering that the Estate is led by Stephen Bogart (son of Bogie and Bacall), and that the page itself is co-managed by Stephen. You can see that info for yourself here. And for the specific post scroll down to the 8th of November, 2010. Regards, AKD157 (talk) 17:49, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Tennis anyone?

Can anyone confirm or source the story I have heard that Bogart coined or popularized the phrase "Tennis anyone?" I believe this would have been in the late 30s or early 40s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonygumbrell (talk • contribs) 03:44, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reference desk would be the place to ask. This page is for discussing improvements to the article. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:31, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
In this discussion, one participant states, "In the Dictionary of Misinformation, Tom Burnam says that Bogart always denied he uttered the line." Another claims to have heard part of a Bogart interview on the radio in which Bogie denies ever saying that line. On the other hand, this New York Times article has actress Dorothy Cheney Quinan and drama critic Richard Watts, Jr. attesting he did. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:12, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

No birth certificate?

Good thing he never played the President of the United States... Clarityfiend (talk) 02:15, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Quotations

The "Quotations" section ought to be rewritten from a more factual and objective perspective. Although Bogart's delivery of these lines is memorable, he is not credited as a screenwriter: these are not quotes of him. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:23, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Unbiased?

"He did not participate in the Hollywood gossip game or cozy up to the newspaper columnists, nor engage in phony politeness and admiration of his peers or in behind the scenes back-stabbing." does not seem unbiased in the spirit of wikipedia... Someone could change it or whatever. 174.22.166.48 (talk) 04:15, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It's not sourced, so I've taken it out. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:41, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Better Picture

I was wondering if we could change the featured picture. There are tons of better ones and Bogart simply looks old and haggard in the one that's featured. Maybe one with his iconic fedora and trenchcoat? Zero no Kamen (talk) 00:42, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Pictures need to be public domain or freely licensed. See Wikipedia:Finding images tutorial. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:47, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Aren't they all? If I suggest a certain picture can we put it through the usual process of okay-ing it for use on the article? Zero no Kamen (talk) 22:47, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Fine, please go ahead - if you can get the copyright holders to agree. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:07, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Faith

Can anyone tell me why it is relevant to mention the faith of Bogarts parents, as well as his own? He never did or said anything remarkable that relates to this faith, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.148.96.96 (talk) 06:52, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

A lot of biographical articles include the same info. I wouldn't call it irrelevant. It's background. Of what significance is the description of his mother being a "militant woman suffragist." It's background. Is the origin of the name "Bogart" relevant and significant? Well it's kind of interesting so maybe it should stay in. Arcanicus (talk) 19:57, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Since you are responding to a 2-year-old thread, one could conclude that there are a minimum of strong feelings either way. But in general, it is interesting that religion seems to be "relevant" on WP for Jews and Muslims, but not for most others. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 22:21, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
My assumption is that for every person who actually responds to something on the internet there may well be dozens, hundreds, or even thousands who consider responding but give it a pass rather than risk being criticized and/or flamed. I responded to this particular thread because it seemed worth a response. As to whether religion is deemed "relevant" only for Jews and Muslims, I really couldn't say. I haven't seen any WP stats; nor have I noticed any WP trend or bias. Given the political climate in the US I'm sure certain right-wing Christians are keenly sensitive about anything that might appear to deny them their self-appointed position as the dominate religious sect--but that of course is not an issue regarding this article on Humphrey Bogart. Arcanicus (talk) 05:56, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

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Chess section

At the moment, this chess section stands out very awkwardly in the narrative of the article. I'm just going to move it here until it can be better integrated...if it is even necessary? It is already mentioned that he was excellent at chess under the Casablanca section, which may be all that is needed. I dunno, this whole page needs a pretty big clean-up. --Lobo (talk) 19:24, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Chess

Bogart was an excellent chess player, almost of master strength. Before he made any money from acting, he would hustle players for dimes and quarters, playing in New York parks and at Coney Island. The chess scenes in Casablanca had not been in the original script, but were put in at his insistence. A chess position from one of his correspondence games appears in the movie, although the image is a little blurred. He achieved a draw in a simultaneous exhibition given in 1955 at Beverly Hills by the famous chess Grandmaster Samuel Reshevsky and also played against George Koltanowski in San Francisco in 1952 (Koltanowski played blindfolded but still won in 41 moves).[1]

Bogart was a member of the United States Chess Federation Board of Directors and active in the California State Chess Association, and a frequent visitor to the Hollywood chess club. The cover of the June–July 1945 issue of Chess Review showed Bogart playing with Charles Boyer, as Lauren Bacall (who also played) looks on. In June 1945, in an interview in the magazine Silver Screen, when asked what things in life mattered most to him, he replied that chess was one of his main interests. He added that he played chess almost daily, especially between film shootings. He loved the game all his life.[2]

References

  1. ^ "The chess games of Humphrey Bogart." Chessgames.com. Retrieved: March 11, 2010.
  2. ^ "Bogart and Chess by Bill Wall." Geocities.com,January 14, 1957. Retrieved: March 11, 2010.

Page look up

Quoting:
He also appeared with Joan Blondell and Ruth Etting in a Vitaphone short, Broadway's Like That (1930) which was re-discovered in 1963.
The reference given is Sperber and Lax 1997, pp. 39–39. Is the page range an error or can it mean something I'm not aware of? I cannot find the original introduction of the reference to check if it has been changed in error (or vandalism, which I suspect may have happened to another ref page range I edited today.)--User:Brenont (talk) 03:49, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

"The Stuff that Dreams are Made Of"

This is from Shakespeare's The Tempest (slightly altered), so I don't think it should be listed as a movie quotation here.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:27, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Citation for Quote

Hello, I noticed there is a quote attributed to the Humphrey Bogart article where someone has put a citation needed. "An actor needs something to stabilize his personality, something to nail down what he really is, not what he is currently pretending to be".

The quote is in the book "Bogart: In Search of My Father" although I do not know the exact page number. I am certainly willing to make a run to the library and find the page numbers but have no idea how to put in the citation in order to keep the numbers in sequential order.

YosemiteValley (talk) 01:07, 2 January 2016 (UTC) YosemiteValley

No need. The quote's available in Google books. What I did was edit the section, move the cursor to the proper place, press the CITE button, choose Book, enter the URL and press the green button at the end of the field to create the reference. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:52, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Humphrey Bogart/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Needs tidying ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 02:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 02:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 18:28, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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8.2 In popular culture needs attention

Section 8.2 says "In 1995, Bogart appeared in the Tales from the Crypt episode, "You Murderer". That's obviously inaccurate, since he died in 1957. I suspect this is supposed to say "A character based on Bogart appeared in..." But I haven't seen that episode so I'm reluctant to make the edit. Can someone who has seen it fix this? BuzzWeiser196 (talk) 21:49, 24 July 2018 (UTC) I fixed it myself based on a source I found (citation added). BuzzWeiser196 (talk) 11:38, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

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