Talk:Hungarian invasion of Carpatho-Ukraine

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Czecoslovak participation

Hi @Azure94,

I see you engaged in edit war.[1]

The article clearly says Lev Prchala fought against Carpatho-Ukraine, against Carpathian Sich not against Hungarians, and he evacuated the Czechoslovak troops on 14 March from the territory by oder of Prague. Second Czechoslovak Republic disbanded on 15 March. How would be Lev Prchala on the side of Carpatho-Ukraine if they fougth bloody fight each other on 12-14 March? How would have been Hungarians fought Czechoslovaks who were not there + it was disbanded?

Please provide academic sources for your claim. OrionNimrod (talk) 15:26, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Azure94, I see you started to rewrote the article to fit your taste, to changing things what I used as evidence in the article. [2] You rewrote the days however Second Czechoslovak Republic is collapsed in 15 March. You also removed sources from the infobox, why? It is also strange, in the infobox you put the Czechoslovak-Ukrainian (Carpathian Sich) conflict/fight together with the Hungarian invasion of Transcarpathia, it should be a separate article, the topic is about the Hungarian invasion not about Czecoslovak-Ukrainian battle. You also emphasize "invading, defending" in the infobox, I do not see this things in any other military infobox in other articles, and the article title itself suggest who was the invader, also in the article does not mention any Czechoslovak-Hungarian military event, so I do not know how Czechoslovakia defended it, morover it collapsed due to the German occupation. Ironically you call me "ultranationalist/irredentist" if I wrote just in the talk page that after WW1 Czech soldiers were the invaders of Hungary (how should call it different? friendly visit?), but you are happy to write Hungary was the invader, which in this case is correct. But you can say, I cannot say? Double standard? (And we do not talk about the ethical aspect, that Transcarpathia was 1000 years long part of Hungary, it had Hungarian population, comparing this the region had no Slovak and Czech population, it was very far from the Czech lands with zero Czech history.) OrionNimrod (talk) 13:15, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"You rewrote the days however Second Czechoslovak Republic is collapsed in 15 March."

The date I used is from the academic source I linked. You can read it in the citation. Also, this might come as a surprise to you, but the Czechoslovak army didn't vanish into thin air the moment the Germans occupied Prague. The article already details how many of these soldiers fought alongside the Sich to defend Carpatho-Ukraine. The Czechoslovak government-in-exile during WW2 fielded an army too, see: 1st Czechoslovak Independent Armoured Brigade and 1st Czechoslovak Army Corps in the Soviet Union

"the topic is about the Hungarian invasion not about Czecoslovak-Ukrainian battle."

I guess you didn't notice it but even before my edits the article talked in detail about the conflict between the Sich and the Czechoslovak Army. It makes sense to add it to the infobox. Azure94 (talk) 16:03, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"The article already details how many of these soldiers fought alongside the Sich to defend Carpatho-Ukraine." Where? How if a state did not exist? Or now individuals can represent a full country? Please show me any Czecoslovak field army which fought against Hungary during that some days during the short Hungarian invasion of Carpatho-Ukraine? I the article I see Czechoslovakia fight against the Sich, now they became allies? Still I do not understand what is the business the Hungarian invasion military box with the Czechoslovak-Sich fight. It is also funny that you did not like when I talked in the talk page the Czechs as invaders in 1919, but you emphazise this in the infobox if Hungarians were the invaders. It should be a separate article because it is a separate military thing, Hungarians were not involved in the conflict between them. Also I do not see in the wiki ever military infobox with many different events. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:07, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Where?"

Are you blind or trolling? Alright, let me quote directly from the article:

The Carpathian Sich recruited volunteers, mostly demobilized Czechoslovak army soldiers from the local population, and, with 10,000 to 12,000 poorly armed soldiers, tried to resist. The Hungarians struck the main blow along the Uzhhorod-Perechyn line, trying to cut off Carpathian Ukraine from the Slovak Republic. The Hungarian army encountered strong resistance near the village of Horonda, where sotnia "Sich" M. Stoyka held the defense for 16 hours.

"How if a state did not exist?"

So you think these two articles are talk about imaginary armies? 1st Czechoslovak Independent Armoured Brigade and 1st Czechoslovak Army Corps in the Soviet Union

It should be a separate article because it is a separate military thing

OK, I'm now certain that you're not reading the article at all. It's absolutely NOT a separate military thing. Azure94 (talk) 17:17, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Azure94 Events March 15–17: "mostly demobilized Czechoslovak army soldiers from the local population" I see everything is here: "demobilized" = no state soldiers, and even "local population" = people of Carpatho-Ukraine, Ruthenians, because no Czech and no Slovaks lived there. And the local population was indeed part of Czechoslovakia, so even the local Hungarians in Czechoslovakia were part of the Czechoslovak army earlier.

"Carpathian Ukraine from the Slovak Republic" Carpatho-Ukraine, Slovak Republic (1939–1945), where is Czechoslovakia? Slovakia get indepence at 14 March 1939. Do you deny the existence of the independent Slovak state? If Slovakia get indepence in 14 March, how possible any Czechoslovak military participation against Hungarian army after 14 of March? If Slovakia was independent where was Czechoslovakia or where was its army?

"Sich" M. Stoyka" again I see Carpathian Sich.

Hungarian invasion had no business with the fight between Czechoslovak and Carpathian Sich. It is related to the article, but not in the military infobox. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"because no Czech and no Slovaks lived there"

Please, provide a source for your claim (I know what you said is incredibly incorrect, but I'm genuinely curious from where you're getting all this false info)

"where is Czechoslovakia?"

In the sourced text of the Moscow Treaty and the Paris Peace treaty, which you continue to intentionally ignore (when you're not outright deleting it from the article). The Soviets said they were annexing Transcarpathia from Czechoslovakia. I will not repeat myself endlessly.

"If Slovakia get indepence in 14 March, how possible any Czechoslovak military participation against Hungarian army after 14 of March?"

I already told you that the Czechoslovak army didn't vanish into thin air on 14th March. Read the article.

"It is related to the article, but not in the military infobox"

The infobox must be related to the article. It's that simple. Azure94 (talk) 17:48, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please show any evidence that Czech population lived in Transcarpathia very far from Czech lands? I am really curious.

However the topic is about that some days event not about other things. Please show me any academic sources that Czechoslovak army fought against Hungarians during that short period.

I see you ignored the establishment of Slovak Republic (1939–1945), then please show academic sources about Czechoslovak army in Transcarpathia which fought against Hungary. OrionNimrod (talk) 18:19, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so you admit that you have no proof for your claim that Czechs and Slovaks didn't live in Transcarpathia. Unlike you, I can source my claims. Here's my source for Czechs and Slovaks living in Carpathia-Ruthenia. And here's an academic source for Czechoslovak army's resistance against the Hungarian invasion (see page 172).

Now, I hope to see you finally giving a source for your claims here. Mesocarp has been waiting for long enough now. Why are you so afraid of other people asking you to give source for your claims? Azure94 (talk) 18:33, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This was not my claim, that “nonviolent” info what is known in Hungary as “peaceful revision” was a long time in the article, at least from 2008: [1] since 15 years and nobody had a problem with this until your edit in these days. OrionNimrod (talk) 21:46, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Surely after 15 years you could find at least once academic source that would agree with your claim that Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy cared deeply about non-violence? Azure94 (talk) 05:57, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious source removed

Ukrinform article was created in 2019.03.15, this is the earliest "source" stating any kind of massacres (27000 people, by the Hungarian army). There are no other historical sources.

For example Serbia demanded that Hungary recognize the Novi Sad raid. In June 2013, Hungarian President János Áder formally apologized for this. Ukraine did not demand any such measures and no information can be found about this supposed genocide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.133.192.50 (talk) 21:22, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]