Talk:Hurricane Noel

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NHC Guidence[edit]

Is it really a good idea to slap on the latest NHC guidance track on Wikipedia? While I certainly would trust the NHC, I don't think it's necessarily in the form of an encyclopedia to put down a graphic that is subjective.

Well i would think it is a good idea as it demonstrates where all the hurricanne watches/warnings are Jason Rees 02:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Death figures[edit]

Since Noel has affected most of the Carribean and it looks likely it may affect the USA/Canada, is it going to be a good idea to use the Same box for deaths as we used for dean if Noel becomes a hurricanne??

I don't see the need in doing what we did for Dean - personally, I think that should never be used, as it is just too much info. I think listing it by country is fine, regardless if it becomes a hurricane. That said, if we get official statistics for each sub-national level (not from news sources but from the government), it could possibly work. Hurricanehink (talk) 02:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, Noel won't be a Hurricane by the time it makes landfall in the Maritimes. Extratropical Storm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.7.217.94 (talk) 13:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, Noel is (and will be when it hits the Maritimes) a category one hurricane. It may become extratropical and just be a noreaster, though. Juliancolton 18:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Satellite images useless because land boundaries are very difficult to discern[edit]

Can we not get any false-colour images including IR channels that clearly show the land-sea boundary? MODIS does provide these channels. 82.71.48.158 14:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Western Caribbean?[edit]

The article section organization is a little odd. Hispanolia is not considered western caribbean, nor is jamacia, etc.. A far better organization would be Lesser Antillies in one section and Great Antillies in another (Peurto Rico info thus moved to Greater section). As it stands now the article uses two different naming styles and not even accurately. Russeasby 21:21, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There was no significant impact in the Lesser Antilles (the Greater Antilles are Cuba, Hispaniola, Jamaica, Puerto Rico and the nearby islands). CrazyC83 02:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to see what this has to do with my comment? And obviously I know the difference between the Greater and Lesser Antilles, which is why I pointed this out and changed the article to make more sense. Russeasby 02:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The change was a good idea. I thought the Greater Antilles section would have been overwhelmed, with too little in the Lesser Antilles, but it looks good. Eventually, though, subsections for each area may be needed, given the high impact. Hurricanehink (talk) 03:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Before I made my change, I toyed with making subsections under Greater Antilles, but nothing I came up with looked right. Basically I tried subsections for PR, DR, Haiti but that left an Elsewhere section that just didn't look right in the grand scheme of the article. Certainly though, as you suggest, as more details come in and things fill out a bit, what works best will become more obvious. Mainly I wanted to get PR out of the Lesser section, and rename the Greater section which was oddly named Western (Belize, Panama, Guatamala, etc were certainly not affected by Noel!). By the way, I took at look at your user page Hurricanehink, and well, color me impressed! You're quite the wikipedian. Russeasby 03:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, thanks for the kind words. Yea, I had a brain fart when I thought of the Western Caribbean being anything west of Puerto Rico. The Caribbean could be split up as "Lesser Antilles and Puerto Rico", "Hispaniola", and "Cuba and Jamaica", which seems logical, but, as you said, more info will indeed make the separations more obvious. --Hurricanehink (talk) 04:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New England[edit]

I think that there should be a section about the preparations and possible effects on New England that noel will have. Any thoughts? Juliancolton 18:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's going to have much more effect on Nova Scotia, where it will make direct hit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.177.59.177 (talk) 20:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Precisely my thoughts; it's due to actually make landfall in Atlantic Canada, yet there's next to no mention of this. Radagast 02:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But since Noel is no longer tropical, but a strong mid-latitude storm, should there still be a mention of a landfall in Canada? Juliancolton 14:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hurricane Agnes did most of her flooding damage when she no longer had tropical characteristics. I don't see why being extratropical makes the storm less important. The storm will hit Canada harder than the Carribbean in terms of intensity with winds well over Category 1. 156.34.66.74 15:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Agnes is also considered very significant in hurricane lore because its "extratropical landfall" (which essentially had the rain and almost the wind of a "Category 1") occured almost right over New York City (though most of the damage and casualties actually occurred inland in northeast Penn. and upstate NY). It is probably the only storm to have its name retired because of what it did while "extratropical" (though the Weather Channel thinks Noel will be retired too). This will be the biggest such storm in Atlantic Canada since Hurricane Juan (and thus one of the biggest storms in their history). hairymon 15:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Even if they think this will be retired, I think that this page should not be moved. It is far from certain as Hispaniola is not exactly known for retiring hurricane names (Gordon killed over 1,000 there and was not retired, for instance). CrazyC83 23:02, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, at least according to the article here on Wikipedia, Hurricane Agnes made its final landfall as still tropical, going through transition shortly after landfall. However, a section should definitely be included on the storm's New England and Canadian impacts. IPchangesthe box 13:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Separate article on Extratropical Noel[edit]

This article is bound to become pretty big. There is plenty of information out there to expand the tropical sections much more, and more will come as more reports come out. Seeing as Noel is shaping up to be a significant extratropical storm, I propose the Meteorology WikiProject make an article on the extratropical storm that was once Noel; perhaps November 2007 nor'easter? Starting as a sandbox would be a good idea, as there is still the chance it doesn't do much as an extratropical storm. This article could cover a brief (few sentences to 1 paragraph) of its storm history after becoming extratropical, and maybe mention just the overall impact. Then, the other article could give it details galore for New England and Canada (and other areas of NE US). The other article wouldn't have to have the name Noel in the title, seeing as Noel was the name of the tropical cyclone, but it should mention it. Hurricanehink (talk) 16:02, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article isnt that big and probally the only major effects on Atlantic Canada will be widespread blackouts and downed trees with some potential damage to wharves due to storm surge. 156.34.66.74 16:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. If you're going to add info about extratropical Noel, either on this article or a seperate one, I suggest doing so before the storm passes over Atlantic Canada altogether. I at least think there should be occasional updates from the Canadian Hurricane centre, even if it is not used in a hurricane infobox. This way, um, see the comment I posted on the 2007 season page. Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 16:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The storm currently approaching the maritimes is Hurricane Noel, even if it is no longer tropical. It should be handled by a single article, with redirects as appropriate. A seperate article would be a bad idea.--Nilfanion (talk) 21:30, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is there precident for doing this? ie- do other storms which have taken a similar path have seperate articles or do they tend to stick to a single article? I would assume single article, but Hurricanhink you obviously know the storm articles well and can perhaps offer an example of a storm to support this idea. Russeasby 21:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is no point in making an article for the extratropical form of Noel. This article is about the storm, regardless of whether the storm is tropical in nature or not. There are no precedents for this, as the distinction between damage caused by a cold-core cyclone is indistinguishable from damage caused by a warm-core cyclone. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that there should be a seperate article about noel after it became extratropical. I also like the idea of an article titled November 2007 Nor'easter. I just think that the article should not have too much mention on the actuall affects of the storm when it was still tropical. Juliancolton 23:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For one thing, there is no major precedent for this. Second, splitting it would take unnecessary effort and could siphon attention away from the main article. Third, there is nothing to suggest that the storm's impact as an ET storm will take up so much space so that it needs its own article; there are some very long and very good articles even within this Wiki-Project. IPchangesthe box 23:30, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No there shouldnt be another article on ET Noel as the only reason that i can see being putting forward at the minute that i can see is utter tosh as the space shuttle mission pages when complete are nearly 70KB long and even the Katrina (05) page is over 100Kb . Jason Rees 23:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]


I think one page is fine. If the article gets too big, we could create subarticles for Impact of Noel (by region if necessary), Pets frightened by Noel, etcetera. Thegreatdr 06:20, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Somehow I don't understand why one should consider a renaming to November 2007 Nor'easter as an Nor'easter is a storm coming from the Northeast and not going there. However, CHC is calling the storm Post-tropical storm Noel. --213.155.231.26 18:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nor'easter actually more commonly refers to a strong cold core storm (rather than a real nor'easter), usually found in the mid-latitudes (around 30-60 degrees north or south of the equator), which is what Noel currently is, although some do claim that it has a few tropical characteristics. IPchangesthe box 20:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A noreaster does not come from the northeast, but rather the from the southwest and moves along the east coast. A nor'easter is so named because the winds in a nor'easter come from the northeast. Juliancolton 20:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was planning on starting an article titled Effects of Hurricane Noel (2007) on New England and then mabey another one: Effects of Hurricane Noel (2007) on Atlantic Canada. Any reason I should not wrtie this article? Post any thoughts on my talk page. Juliancolton 19:22, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not a bad idea if enough information can be gathered to get regional subarticles. (No meteorological history article is needed as that is fairly short) CrazyC83 03:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Extratropical Noel[edit]

Hurricane Noel is now considered a Extratropical Cyclone so I have fixed the Hurricane Warning Notice to "Extratropical Noel"- November 3, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.204.47.67 (talk) 18:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there i Think the policy is that we will call it whatever the CHC calls it Jason Rees 23:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Canadian Hurricane Centre is not an official RSMC though. CrazyC83 02:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So what? They are the source for any information on the system. The "official" stuff is a millstone around the neck of WPTC.--Nilfanion (talk) 09:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, since the CHC is the only storm centre that is tracking the storm specifically, and it is thus the only centre that has given it a prefix after transition, then we should go with them, even though they're not official. IPchangesthe box 12:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's official as far as the government of Canada is concerned. Regardless, the advisories and reports come from a reliable source as defined by Wikipedia policy itself. With Noel, the NHC never stated that Noel was ever extratropical - the last NHC advisory indicated that the transition was beginning; the last discussion (mirrored by the CHC advisory at roughly the same time) actually stated that it would not be fully extratropical by the time it entered the Maritimes. In short, the NHC never "officially" stated that Noel became completely extratropical - the CHC did on November 4, when Noel entered Labrador. "Tropical" and "extratropical" are but extremes in a spectrum of type of storm - the amount of tropical characteristics that a transitioning storm is needed to retain a "tropical" status has never been "officially" determined... or at least announced. 66.217.33.129 04:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
From what I could see, the CHC's use of "post-tropical" simply means that the storm has tropical characteristics, but the NHC could no longer be bothered with it. When all the tropical characteristics are gone, the CHC uses "extratropical", same as the NHC. 66.217.33.129 04:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dominican Republic[edit]

[1]

Yahoo says that the Dominican Republic is requesting $100 million dollars in aid to help cleanup storm damage. Should we put this under damage in the infobox? :@ 156.34.64.164 17:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, that goes in the government relief section. Anyone care to update it? IPchangesthe box 17:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, hold on a minute, the information seems to already be there from a different source, only the request in the article is 200 mil, not 100. IPchangesthe box 17:24, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation[edit]

Would it be helpful to include the correct pronunciation after "Hurricane Noel..." I, and a few others thought it was the two syllable Noel (No-eL) instead of the one syllable name. --Darkdan 04:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If it was "No-el", it would have had an umlaut over the 'o'. Nice try. 142.167.231.141 13:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not many people are familiar with that, though. It might be a good idea to put it in, but I'd want a few more opinions before I did so. IPchangesthe box 19:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The reporters on NPR use the one syllable version. (There's probably audio on www.npr.org). But is there an "official" pronunciation - say from the National Hurricane Center (the people in charge of naming hurricanes)? They may have intended it to be No-el, but omitted the umlauts for typographical reasons. -- 20:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.104.112.105 (talk)

The National Weather Service on thier pronunciation guide says that Noel is pronounced by the one-syllable version. "Noel NOL" is how they depict the name. Juliancolton 21:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The one syllable "Noel" is a man's name (see Noel Coward); the two syllable "Noël" is not. 147.70.242.40 22:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bad example - I've been informed that the man's actual name is Noël Coward, with the dieresis. At least it isn't Häagen-Dazs... 147.70.242.40 22:06, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The pronounciation was just added to the NHC website within the past few weeks, when there were a number of media inquiries and questions within the NWS on how to pronounce the name. Thegreatdr 02:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Damage figure[edit]

I would like to see a good reference on the 10 million dollar figure, it seems quite unlikely considering the storm's effects on Hispaniola. The article states at least 30 million in crop damages in the Dominican Republic. 72.205.60.115 23:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most news sites say 10s of millions dollars in damage so 10m would be at the low end but if 30m in crop damages has been done it should be updated. 204.82.159.219 13:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, comprehensive damage reports have not come in yet, so forty million would be an unsourced number. IPchangesthe box 14:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
TCR has $500M in Cuba, $77M in the Dominican Republic and $3-4M in Florida, but no numbers from Haiti, Puerto Rico, the Bahamas, New England or Canada. Also it mentions the death toll as 163, but does not include the Puerto Rico deaths mentioned on other sources, so those are likely indirect deaths. (It does mention the cause of at least some of them were road accidents, which are almost always indirect.) CrazyC83 (talk) 04:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pressure[edit]

I've forgot to save that link - but a GFS map yesterday showed the storm at 973 mb in Labrador. Maybe it can be added with the link if it can be found in the appropriate area - although pressured not in the infobox since I guess that it is only the lowest pressure when having tropical characteristics.--JForget 16:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It went at least as low as 968mb while a post-tropical storm, as I remember from doing the updates to this article from the CHC notices. So if it is to be mentioned, I suggest searching through their archive to find what the lowest was. Caerwine Caer’s whines 18:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks I've found it - the next-to-last statement showed a barometric pressure of 966 mb.--JForget 19:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The lowest while tropical was 980, but it is quite possible that Noel had a warm core longer (perhaps all the way to Atlantic Canada?) and that may be brought down in the TCR. CrazyC83 01:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Table[edit]

What do y'all think about using this table. I know that some people do not this table very much, though.

Deaths and damage from Hurricane Dean
Country Total
deaths 		State/
region 		State
total 		County/
Municip. 		County
total 		Direct
deaths 		Damage
(USD) 		Source
Dominica 2 2 Unknown [1]
Dominican Republic 6 6 Unknown [2]
Haiti 11 11 Unknown [3]
Jamaica 3 3 ~$2 billion [4][5][6]
France 2 Martinique 2 0 ~$270 million [7]
Mexico 14 Hidalgo 6 Zacualtipán 2 6 ~$800 million [8][9] [10]
Cuautepec 2
San Agustín Tlaxiaca 1
Pachuca 1
Jalisco 2 Puerto Vallarta 2 2 [11][12]
Michoacán 1 Paracho 1 1 [8][9]
Puebla 6 Tepetzintla 4 6 [8][13]
Pahuatlán 1
Unknown 1
Veracruz 1 Xalapa 1 0 [14][13]
Nicaragua 1 1 Unknown [15]
Saint Lucia 1 1 Unknown [16]
United States 1 Florida 1 Sarasota 1 1 None [17]
Totals: 42 39 ~$3.8 billion [18]
Because of differing sources, totals may not match.

Juliancolton 02:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please no. I greatly dislike those tables. --Hurricanehink (talk) 06:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. I will not put that up. Juliancolton 14:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not only that, the table in the article conveys deaths better, and not enough countries are affected to really have any use for it; the only storms that should have those tables are ones that affect a great many countries. IPchangesthe box 13:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Forbes Haiti preps was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ JACQUELINE CHARLES, JIM WYSS, TRENTON DANIEL AND MARTIN MERZE (2007-08-18). "Dean kills one in D.R., heading to Jamaica". Miami Herald. Retrieved 2007-08-18.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  3. ^ hdnews.net
  4. ^ Demian McLean (2007-08-20). "Hurricane, Now Category 5, Approaches Coast of Mexico (Update7)". Retrieved 2007-08-20.
  5. ^ CMC (2007-08-20). "Dean kills three in Jamaica". Retrieved 2007-08-20.
  6. ^ AIR Worldwide (2007-08-21). "AIR: Dean Jamaica Losses will not Exceed $1.5 Billion". Retrieved 2007-08-21.
  7. ^ The Associated Press (2007-08-19). "Hurricane Dean Death Toll climbs to 8". Retrieved 2007-08-20.
  8. ^ a b c Staff Writers (2007-08-24). "Hurricane Dean rains pound Mexico". The Sunday Telegraph. Retrieved 2007-08-24.
  9. ^ a b Javier Salinas (2007-08-23). "Provoca Dean 5 muertes y desbordamiento de ríos" (in Spanish). La Jornada. Retrieved 2007-08-23. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
  10. ^ Pachuca, Hidalgo (2007-08-25). "Confirman seis muertes en Hidalgo por Dean" (in Spanish). El Universal. Retrieved 2007-08-26.
  11. ^ Staff Writer (2007-08-24). "Death toll reaches 11 from Hurricane Dean in Mexico". earthtimes.org. Retrieved 2007-08-24.
  12. ^ Agencias (2007-08-26). "Aumentan a siete los muertos por 'Dean'" (in Spanish). ESMAS. Retrieved 2007-08-26.
  13. ^ a b Blanca Patricia Galindo and Dinorath Mota (2007-08-24). "Alerta máxima en Hidalgo y Puebla; van ocho muertos" (in Spanish). El Universal. Retrieved 2007-08-24. Cite error: The named reference "eluniverse_2007-08-24" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
  14. ^ Tomas Bravo (2007-08-22). "Hurricane Dean slams Mexico's Gulf coast, kills two". Reuters. Retrieved 2007-08-22.
  15. ^ Howard Campbell (2007-08-19). "Hurricane Dean pummels Jamaica". Retrieved 2007-08-20.
  16. ^ EQECAT (2007-08-20). "EQECAT Estimates Dean Losses Between $1.5-$ 3 Billion". Retrieved 2007-08-20.
  17. ^ Sarasota Herald-Tribune (2007-08-23). "Lifeguards Rescue More Than 35 Off Siesta Key". The Tampa Tribune. Retrieved 2007-08-25.
  18. ^ MARK STEVENSON (2007-8-21). "Hurricane Dean Bears Down on Mexico's Oil Industry". {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Tabasco ?[edit]

I was under the impression that Noel caused record-breaking floods in Tabasco and other parts of Mexico, but that isn't mentioned at all. Can someone clarify? JQ 08:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it did not. That flooding was unrelated. Several news stories clarified that when Noel was active. --Hurricanehink (talk) 14:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that.JQ 21:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, i know that this was already said, but the flooding was unrelated. Juliancolton 01:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

todo[edit]

I am supprised this is still a b class. The only problem i can see is the aftermath section, which i think needs a little more info. -- Juliancolton (talk) 21:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed the dupicate rainfall statements for Florida. The second line about it late in the paragraph was the forecast, while the first was verification. I can see why the article is still B class. Also, wait for the TCR. There are going to be rainfall reports included from the Bahamas, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic. I'm letting NHC sort out what is correct or not in the DR, and the TC rainfall website will be changed to fit the data accepted by NHC for Caribbean countries. Thegreatdr (talk) 03:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I withdrew the nomination. It needs to be updated using the TCR, and there is very little aftermath. --Hurricanehink (talk) 21:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When I get that finished, can I renominate? Juliancolton (talk) (Happy New Year!) 23:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Be sure you update the entire article in places where needed. Also, the aftermath needs appropriate expansion. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is I don't see anything that needs updating. Juliancolton (talk) (Happy New Year!) 00:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that most of the article was written while the storm was active or within a few days. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh. ANd Never mind concerning my last post. I do see stuff that needs updating. I am fixing that now. And by the way, Mitch told me that you thought I should keep my distance in Georges, and I understand, but I hope you will try it at FAC. Juliancolton (talk) (Happy New Year!) 00:54, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd take that kind of talk to the talk pages. It doesn't appear relevant to this article. Thegreatdr (talk) 01:20, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, my fault. Juliancolton (talk) (Happy New Year!) 21:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't Noel the first November hurricane to get retired? Itfc+canes=me (talk) 17:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, Hurricane Lenny was another one. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

separate sub-article on US effects?[edit]

There's a separate sub-article on the effects in the U.S. That is up for featured article (FAC).

What should be do? Trim the section on US effects in this article? The untrimmed version is in the diffs....http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Noel&diff=245733308&oldid=245188699

A trimmed version is being worked on and will appear shortly. Chergles (talk) 21:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And here's the revision with a trimmed U.S. section. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Assessment comment[edit]

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Could be better in B6, but overall it is a B. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 21:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 18:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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