Talk:ISO 4217/Archives/2022

Unsourced historical codes

There are several currency codes in the historical codes table that aren't listed in table A.3 of ISO 4217 (https://www.currency-iso.org/en/home/tables/table-a3.html): ADF, ARL, MAF, MCF, MKN, SML, VAL, YUG, YUO, and YUR. I marked them as {{cn}} but ultimately I think they should be removed from this table. My guess is that most of them were used for a period of time but were never officially part of the standard. Should they be moved to the "unofficial" table or just deleted? I'm leaning towards unofficial but am OK with either option. DRMcCreedy (talk) 23:30, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

A table called "Currency" at https://op.europa.eu/en/web/eu-vocabularies/at-concept-scheme/-/resource/authority/currency/ includes ADF, ARL, MCF, MKN, SML, VAL, YUG, YUO and YUR (and gives from and to dates), so that's all of them except MAF. This confirms that they were in use but gives us no information as to whether they were created formally or informally. Misha Wolf (talk) 14:28, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I've used this source and moved them to a new unofficial historical table. If I ever come across an old version of the standard that has them I'll move 'em back. I think if they were ever officially in the standard they would be been retained in table A.3 but who knows. DRMcCreedy (talk) 23:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's what I could dig up:

• Andorra was originally listed as using the Spanish peseta (ESP) and French franc (FRF), with the Andorran peseta (ADP) being introduced in 1981 with Amendment 7; it's possible that Andorran franc (ADF) was unofficially used to round out the group (it is in neither the 1990 nor 1995 editions, and Amendment 114 suggests that Andorra wasn't the most communicative).
• The 1981 (2nd) edition already lists the official currency of Argentina as the Argentine peso (ARP), with no mention of the Argentine peso ley (ARL). The English version of the "Funds codes registered with the Maintenance Agency" table (Table 2), but not the French version, lists "Argentine Peso" with a fund type of "Special financial" but without any codes. (Amendment 12 introduces the Argentine austral (ARA) in 1985, as an amendment to the 1981 edition.) The 1990 (4th) edition does, however, list "Peso" with a code of ARY as a historical currency; the 1995 (5th) edition elaborates by adding a footnote indicating that it was "Non ISO code" and a withdrawal date of "1989 to 1990". It is unclear which currency this refers to.
• The 1st edition of ISO 4217 was dated 1978. I don't currently have a copy of it, but it's doubtful that it would have assigned a code to a currency that had already been discontinued. The 1981 (2nd) edition lists only Moroccan dirham (MAD). I think MAF is a retronym for the Moroccan franc. (Additional circumstantial evidence: the first edition of ISO 3166, the source of the component country codes, was dated 1974, so it's possible that not even MA existed at the time the franc was discontinued.)
• In the 1981 (2nd), 1990 (4th), and 1995 (5th) editions, as well as Amendment 114, Monaco is listed as using the French franc (FRF) and San Marino and Vatican City/Holy See are listed as using the Italian lira (ITL), so it's doubtful that Monégasque franc (MCF), Sammarinese lira (SML), or Vatican lira (VAL) were ever given their own official codes prior to being replaced with the Euro (EUR). (Compare the current Guernsey pound, Manx pound, etc.)

The situation with Yugoslavia, the Yugoslav dinar, and the breakup of Yugoslavia is complex (as demonstrated by Template:Currencies of Former Yugoslavia). I'll try to lay out the timeline:

1. The 1990 (4th) edition is released, listing Yugoslavia as having the "New Yugoslavian Dinar" (YUD) as its currency.
2. Amendment 28 – which, despite being dated 1990-01-26 and described as amending the 1981 (2nd) edition, did not manage to get incorporated into the 1990 (4th) edition – introduced the "Yugoslavian Dinar" (YUN) and relegated the "New Yugoslavian Dinar" (YUD) to historical status.
3. Slovenia and Croatia each declared independence from Yugoslavia on 1991-06-25. North Macedonia cleared independence from Yugoslavia on 1991-09-25. Croatia severed ties with Yugoslavia on 1991-10-08. Slovenia passed an independent constitution on 1991-12-23. Bosnia and Herzegovina declared independence from Yugoslavia on 1992-03-03.
4. Amendment 42, dated 1992-03-13, introduced the Slovenian tolar (SIT). Amendment 43, dated 1992-04-29, introduced the Croatian dinar (HRD). Amendment 47, dated 1992-10-20, assigned them both their numeric codes.
5. Amendment 58, dated 1993-07-13, introduced the Macedonian denar (MKD). There is no mention of a currency being used in North Macedonia between 1991 and 1993. The code MKN is likely a retronym formed by combining the country code MK (which also did not exist until 1993) with the currency indicator from YUN.
6. Amendment 73, dated 1994-05-23, introduced the Croatian kuna (HRK). Amendment 81, dated 1995-01-13, moved the Croatian dinar (HRD) to historical status.
7. Amendment 87, dated 1995-11-06, introduced the "New Dinar" (YUM) for Yugoslavia and moved the "Yugoslavian Dinar" (YUN) to historical status, indicating that YUM was the sole legal tender of Yugoslavia as of 1994-07-22.
8. The 1995 (5th) edition lists the "Yugoslavian Diner" (YUN) as the active currency for Yugoslavia, while also listing "Yugoslavian Diner" (YUN) alongside "New Yugoslavian Dinar" (YUD) in the list of historical currencies for Yugoslavia. The withdrawal date for YUN is listed as 1995-11.
9. Amendment 89, dated 1996-01-25, introduces the Bosnia and Herzegovina dinar (BAD) as the currency for Bosnia and Herzegovina, which did not have a separate entry in the 1995 (5th) edition, with a reported effective date of 1994-10-14. (Croatia, North Macedonia, Slovenia, and Yugoslavia did have separate entries.)
10. Amendment 119, dated 2003-07-29, moves the entry for "Yugoslavian Dinar" (YUM) to historical status, replacing the entry for Yugoslavia with an entry for Serbia and Montenegro, effective 2003-02. Serbia is listed as using the new Serbian dinar (CSD) while Montenegro uses the Euro (EUR). There is no mention of any currency with codes YUG, YUO, or YUR.
11. The 2008 (7th) edition lists only 3 historical currencies for Yugoslavia: "Yugoslavian Dinar" (YUD), "Yugoslavian Dinar" (YUN), and "New Yugoslavian Dinar" (YUM). Again no mention of YUG, YUO, or YUR.
12. Amendment 164, dated 2017-09-08, makes numerous changes to the numeric codes of historical currencies, including to the entry for "New Yugoslavian Dinar" (YUD), which it gives a numeric code of 891. Though not indicated a such, this is presumably an amendment to the 2015 (8th) edition, which I do not currently have a copy of. However, while the 1995 (5th) and 2008 (7th) editions are indeed missing numeric codes for the historical YUD, the active entries in the 1981 (2nd) and 1990 (4th) editions list the numeric code as 890, not 891 (which I think originated after the breakup of Yugoslavia). The latest available copy of List Three, however, lists "New Yugoslavian Dinar" (YUD) as 890. (It also lists YUN as "Yugoslavian Dinar" and YUM as "New Dinar", which seems contradictory with the above.)

So with all that being said, I'm not sure it changes anything. I found no evidence that the codes listed as unofficial historical are anything but that. Anyway, hope it helps. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 02:33, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

There follows a correspondence I've had with the Publications Office of the European Union, below abbreviated to POEU:

From me to the POEU on 12 Aug 2020:

Together with some others, I am working on updates to the ISO 4217 page of Wikipedia. One thing we've been doing is checking which of the "Historical currency codes" were previously included in ISO 4217 and which were created informally. Your list includes some historical currency codes (ADF, ARL, MCF, MKN, SML, VAL, YUG, YUO and YUR) which are not mentioned in the documents available on the Web site of the ISO 4217 Maintenance Agency. We haven't been able to discover whether they were ever ISO 4217 currency codes. Please could you help us by letting us know your sources for the information about these currency codes. Many thanks!

From the POEU to me on 13 Aug 2020:

Indeed your remark is correct and we appreciate it that you took the time to inform us. We checked the List of codes for historic denominations of currencies & funds (https://www.currency-iso.org/en/home/tables/table-a3.html) and indeed it does not mention the codes you mentioned.

Our Authority Table AT Currency was created in 2010 and is based on the ISO 4217 Codes for the representation of currencies and funds. However, We can't tell for sure if our Authority Table took into account all the previous versions of ISO 4217 or if it was solely based on the 2008 version. My colleague who's the data steward of this table is currently on holiday. Upon her return she will analyse this issue and inform you of the outcome.

From me to the POEU on 13 Aug 2020:

Many thanks for your quick responses.

Please note that I'm not complaining about the inclusion of those codes in your table. What I’m trying to do is find out whether they were ever included in ISO 4217.

What we’ve done for now, is cite your table in the second Wikipedia table below the heading 6.2 Unofficial currency codes, as shown below:

[...]

Thanks again

From the POEU to me on 4 Sep 2020:

Thank you for warning us. After checking we confirm that these codes have never been official ISO codes but were used historically.

We make efforts to harmonise currency authority table with ISO. We have changed the status of these codes into “retired” and added comments. These modifications will be visible after our next publication of 23 September.

The retired status indicates that the code/concept has been withdrawn and should no longer be used. It is different from the status deprecated which indicates that the code/concept is no longer in force and should not be used outside the given timespan. Unfortunately some systems cannot differentiate these statuses and manages both as deprecated; however deprecated means that the code was valid during some time in the past and retired means it was created by error.

We have two other codes with retired status, SQS Somaliland shilling and TVD Tuvaluan dollar. TVD is present on your list of Active non-ISO 4217 currency codes; maybe SQS should be added too.

I don't plan to do anything further on this other than to thank the POEU and draw their attention to this Talk page.

Does anyone else wish to take up their suggestion re SQS? Thanks. Misha Wolf (talk) 20:28, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

I did want to mention that, following my research, my interpretation was that the EU list was a superset of ISO 4217—essentially extended for further contexts of use. It's good that they distinguish between the codes that were once part of ISO 4217 and the codes that they made up (or which otherwise originated elsewhere). If we want to use their list as a strong source for "unofficial" codes (where "official" = from ISO 4217), I think that would be acceptable. If our list is then missing some of their retired codes, I think that would mean we should add them. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 04:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

@GPHemsley Regarding the code ARY, my gut feeling is that it will be in the 1978 edition under the name "peso" representing the peso ley, which would explain its otherwise curious omission. I note that the first five amendments are not available online, with amendment 6 being issued on 2 June 1983 - a day after the 1983 peso was introduced - so it feels likely they contain something related to Argentina. Furthermore, the 1981 edition lacks a historical code table, which may explain why ARY doesn't feature at all.

Then again, none of that explains why the 1981 standard contains the code used for the 1983 peso. However, it's important to note that Argentina experienced a series of major currency crises between the late '70s and the early '90s, and the currency articles contain very little information relating to that. It could be that the 1983 peso actually replaced the peso ley for financial purposes prior to its introduction as physical currency (in the same way EUR replaced all of the Eurozone currencies on 1 January 1999). It may also be that it refers to some other currency issued on an emergency basis for a short period that we haven't documented, which is entirely possible if it was never circulated physically.

I also wouldn't pay any attention to the stated withdrawal date, given that BGJ and BGK also say that, despite seemingly referring to currencies withdrawn long before then. Theknightwho (talk) 11:26, 8 June 2022 (UTC)