Talk:Ibn Saud/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Antisemitism

@Xpërt3: You claim that the "sources and quotations do not back up the claims made in these paragraphs". Let's comapare:

  • "Ibn Saud harboured extreme antisemitic views. In October 1944 he told a US legation that wherever the Jews "go they make trouble and sow dissension and we Moslems are aware of their machinations and we hate them from the dephts of our being. Our hatred of this sinful and evil race is growing day by day until our one ambition is to slay them all. Where we see them encroaching on us we Moslems will fight them and butcher them until we have driven them from our lands. Allah be praised we have no Jews in our kingdom and never shall we allow one Jew to enter it."[1]
Most of this is directly taken from Herf 2009. The entire speech is much longer and also includes an anecdote where Ibn Saud compared the Jews to a snake, which I decided to cut for length reasons.
  • "In February 1939 German ambassador Fritz Grobba reported that Ibn Saud approved of Germany's persecution of Jews, whom he called "the arch enemy of the Arabs"."[2] Quote from the original document:
"The King [Ibn Saud] expressed himself as follows on the situation in the rest of the Arab world: All Arabs and Mohammedans in the various parts of the world have great respect for Germany, which is increased by the fight which Germany is waging against the Jews, the arch enemy of the Arabs."
The German "fight" against the Jews obviously refers to the anti-Jewish discrimination implemented by the Nuremberg Laws.
"Under State Secretary Ernst Woermann in the Foreign Office in Berlin in May 1939, Grobba did mention financial assistance that Germany had recently provided to Arab rebels in Palestine through Saudi Arabia."

Saudi requests for German aid for the Palestinian rebels are attested as early as 1937.[4] A few typos aren't a valid reason for deleting content, btw. LeGabrie (talk) 09:34, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

These sources are unreliable, and they do not prove he is anti-semetic. When Ibn Saud referred to Jews, he referred to the Zionists. This is not anti-semetic. The information you have are merely claims and don't have any proof that these are factual. If you look at official diplomatic meetings and records by American administrations, Ibn Saud stated that Palestine belongs to the Muslims and not the Jews. He told FDR that he wanted the Americans to create a state for the Zionists in Europe. We have had this discussion many times in the past in talk pages about this particular topic, so it's best not to disrupt the rulings by these talk pages. Xpërt3 (talk) 13:33, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

If you want to propose these changes, you should wait for other Wikipedia editors who have contributed to this article for years. There are many of them. Xpërt3 (talk) 13:35, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

"These sources are unreliable"
Says who?
"When Ibn Saud referred to Jews, he referred to the Zionists. This is not anti-semetic."
Nope, he called "the Jews" a "dangerous and hostile race, making trouble wherever they exist." He stated that it were the Jews "who have always stirred up the relations between us [Muslims and Christians]. Where there was no difference the Jews created one." He said that "[w]herever they [the Jews] go they make trouble and sow dissension." He claimed that "[w]e have the experience of the ages" in not trusting the Jews. He thanked God that "we have no Jews in our kingdom".[5] Blatant antisemitism. LeGabrie (talk) 18:16, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
@LeGabrie:, Contrary to your sources, the Jewish Telographic Agency reported that in 1943, Ibn Saud said, “Secondly, I am not afraid of the Jews or of the possibility of their ever having a state or power, either in the land of the Arabs or elsewhere. This is in accordance with what God has revealed unto us through the mouth of His Prophet in His Holy Book. Thus I hold the demands of the Jews upon this land an error; first because it constitutes an injustice against the Arabs, and the Moslems in general; and secondly because it causes dissensions and disturbances between the Moslems and their friends the Allies; and in this I fail to see anything good. Furthermore, if the Jews are impelled to seek a place to live, Europe and America as well as other lands are larger and more fertile than Palestine, and more suitable to their welfare and interests. This would constitute justice, and there is no need to in volve the Allies and the Moslems in a problem void of good." He also said, “As to the native Jewish population in Palestine, I suggest that the Arabs agree with their friends the Allies to safeguard the interests of those Jews, provided the Jews commit no action that might lead to strife and dissension, which would not be in the general interest, and provided the Jews give a guarantee, endorsed by the Allies, that they would not strive to buy Arab property, and would refrain from using their great financial power for that purpose. Such efforts would only bring to the people of Palestine loss and injury, and poverty and decay to their doors. Such efforts would inevitably lead to more trouble. On the other hand the Arabs would recognize the rights of the Jews and would guarantee to safeguard them.” [1]
If Ibn Saud was really anti-semetic, he would have not cared about any Jews at all, but it looks like he does care about those that are native to their lands. This is a much more prominent source than the ones you cited, and I went to look in their database for any other sources about Ibn Saud being anti-semetic, none of which suggested that. The timelines of the sources you cited don't make sense because Ibn Saud was consistent with his position during FDR's presidency. He was correct in being very wary of the Zionist Jews that occupied current day Palestine, but approved of the native Jews that live in Palestine. Xpërt3 (talk) 17:27, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
@Xpërt3:"If Ibn Saud was really anti-semetic, he would have not cared about any Jews at all but it looks like he does care about those that are native to their lands."
Ibn Saud's opinion on the Jews was highly ambivalent.[6] He once called them a "good friend of the Arabs" and condemned the pogrom of Hebron in 1929, in other instances he made use of aggressive anti-Jewish / antisemite rhetorics, like what I quoted above or one instance where he labelled them "a dangerous and hostile race, sinful, cursed and evil; they are despised because of their exaggerated love of money".[7] He would often refer to Islam to justify his hatred. In 1937 Ibn Saud told a British colonel that "[o]ur hatred for the Jews dates from God's condemnation of them" for them "rejecting" the prophets Jesus and Muhammad. He called them "the very same Jews who maltreated your Isa." He also noted how killing a Jew or dying by his hand ensures "an immediate entry into Heaven."[8] In 1939 he reportedly called the Jews "a race accursed by God, according to His Holy Book, and destined to final destruction and eternal damnation". He thought that it was appropriate for Germany "to have shorn them of their possessions".[9] Similar in 1945, when he referred to the Quran when calling the Jews the "enemies of the Moslems until the end of the world."[10] LeGabrie (talk) 23:22, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
@LeGabrie, Ibn Saud is speaking about Zionists that he hates, hence looks to you as "ambivalent". In the Arabic language, sentences can be taken out of context, and in this context it most definitely was. I can give you an example of Arabic translation of the Quran which can be taken out of context:
"you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people" [5:51]
This Quranic verse is a chronological verse, referring to certain Jews and Christians who betrayed the Prophet Muhammad. This Quranic verse was instructing Muslims to fight the same Jews and Christians who betrayed the Prophet Muhammad. Ibn Saud's statements were taken out of context and he was most likely referring to Zionists. Without adequate understanding of how the Arabic language works, you will not understand what I'm trying to say.
I'll give another example. I went to Saudi Arabia recently for Umrah, which is holy pilgrimage, and there was a khutbah (formal address) given by an Imam at Masjid al Haram. The address was about Muslims, and so he would use the word "Muslims" frequently to refer to certain groups of Muslims. If you take one of his sentences out of context, you will think he was speaking about all Muslims as a whole. The Arabic language in general is very complicated to understand from an English perspective.
In one of your sources, Ma'oz 2020, that source also states "He [Ibn Saud] opposed declaring jihad on the Jews by a fatwa; and condemned Muslim Palestinians that murdered [them]". So how does it make sense that all of the sudden for him to say "killing a Jew or dying by his hand ensures "an immediate entry into Heaven."?.
Ibn Saud was considered the Imam of Saudi Arabia, a Muslim who understood Islam much better than most people. Islam does not promote anti-Semitism in any way, and it does not make sense for Ibn Saud to deviate from the teachings of Islam, and the school of thought he followed, which was Hanbali Salafi Islam. I highly suggest that you go back to reinterpret the sources. The way it looks to have "ambivalence" and the contradictoriness that is seen is clear proof to me that Ibn Saud hated Zionists but would allow native Jews to live peacefully. Xpërt3 (talk) 00:49, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
"Ibn Saud is speaking about Zionists that he hates, hence looks to you as "ambivalent"."
@Xpërt3: The various quotes make it rather clear that he wasn't just talking about the Zionists, even if you claim so. This ambivalence towards the Jews and the struggle to differentiate between Zionists and Jews wasn't just restricted to Ibn Saud, by the way. The contemporary Muslim Brotherhood also claimed that Islam prescribed the protection of non-Muslim, yet that didn't hinder them to insult and harass the Jewish community in Egypt on the pretext that they supported the Zionists.[11][12] I will rephrase my text to better display Ibn Saud's ambivalence, ranging from a more or less pro-Jewish stance to aggressive antisemitic rhetorics. LeGabrie (talk) 11:36, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
@LeGabrie:The only thing I will agree with you on here is that Ibn Saud disliked certain Jewish populations but did not mind others. This is clear when it is stated that, "He [Ibn Saud] opposed declaring jihad on the Jews by a fatwa; and condemned Muslim Palestinians that murdered [them]". If he was completely anti-semitic, he would have hated all Jews, but from this quotation, it looks like he cared about Palestinian Jews. The Arabic language's complexity is a linguistic obstacle here and therefore, I don't think that jumping to your current conclusion is correct. I believe what I stated in the first sentence of my current response is what should be put on the Wikipedia page. Xpërt3 (talk) 16:50, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
A letter written by Emir Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia to President Roosevelt in November, 1938, requesting his assistance in resisting “Zionist rule in Palestine”: "Verily the Arabs and all Islam will fight for Palestine, and they refuse to have their lands handed over to foreigners who have no connection with the country"
“I do not clearly understand what the ‘Jewish problem’ really is. Is it to find a ‘home’ for all the Jews who are scattered all over the Earth? Or is it to establish Zionist rule in Palestine? If it is the former, then it must be realised that Palestine has already absorbed more Jews than any other country, and even were the Arabs to be turned out, it could not possibly contain all the Jews in the world, so you see how unfair it is to burden Palestine with any more Jews; if, however, they wish to establish Zionist rule in Palestine, it is surely a most tyrannical proposal to turn a peace-loving, law-abiding people out of their homes to satisfy the greed and personal ambitions of a few Zionist leaders" [2]
It looks to me that Ibn Saud was against the idea of more Jews coming to Palestine for the reason to establish a Zionist state as there was already a threat. He was anti-Zionist. Xpërt3 (talk) 17:03, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Herf 2009, pp. 226–227.
  2. ^ Germany Auswärtiges Amt 1953, p. 810.
  3. ^ Nicosia 2014, p. 109.
  4. ^ Nicosia 2014, p. 88.
  5. ^ Herf 2009, p. 226.
  6. ^ Ma'oz 2020, p. 164.
  7. ^ Ma'oz 2020, pp. 164–165.
  8. ^ Cohen 1985, p. 232.
  9. ^ Simons 1998, p. 191.
  10. ^ Grayson 2005, p. 52.
  11. ^ Berridge 2018, p. 78.
  12. ^ Gershoni & Jankowski 2010, pp. 223–224.
  • Berridge, W. J. (2018). Islamism in the Modern World. A Historical Approach. Bloomsburry.
  • Cohen, Michael J. (1985). Churchill and the Jews. Taylor & Francis.
  • Gershoni, Israel; Jankowski, James (2010). Confronting Fascism in Egypt. Dictatorship versus Democracy in the 1930s. Stanford University.
  • Grayson, Benson Lee (2005). "Amid Problems, the American Presence Grows". Saudi Arabia. A Modern Reader. Indianapolis University. pp. 51–64.
  • Ma'oz, Moshe (2020). Jews, Muslims and Jerusalem. Disputes and Dialogues. Liverpool University.
  • Simons, Geoff (1998). Winberg Chai (ed.). Saudi Arabia. The Shape of a Client Feudalism. Palgrave Macillan.

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