Talk:Igbo people

Etymology

Can you prevent people with certain agendas from spreading falsehood about the term “Igbo” origin? Has nothing to do with Igalas. 204.197.177.13 (talk) 15:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

It seems like some more research will be needed to sort that out. Right now, I'm afraid, the "Etymology" section is in a somewhat bad shape. William Baike's 1854 book is very old and it actually doesn't even say anything about the origin of the name; Meek's Law and Authority in a Nigerian Tribe is from 1937, so I have very serious doubts it reflects the latest insights into this matter. The Igala 'slave' theory is from a reliable and recent source – the library.bu.edu article also cited elsewhere in the section. However, having a more detailed and contemporary discussion of this topic would be even better. I'll check if I can find something. Gawaon (talk) 17:56, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I have now replaced the outdated information with a short summary of the discussion in a recent book on the name's possible origins. The Igala 'slave' theory is not mentioned there, hence it seems preferable not to include it. Gawaon (talk) 18:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Nsibidi origins

I have reverted a recent series of edits by CHI-Research related to the origins of Nsibidi because:

1. They messed up a number of references and (inadvertently) converted quotes from the cited references into plain article text in wikipedia's voice, which would constitute plagiarism
2. They added a paragraph of their own analysis arguing that the findings of Macgregor from 1909 are superior to subsequent research because, as per CHI-Research, the former "shows photos, artefacts and evidences of origin of Nsibidi in subgroups of Igbo" and "no referenced papers on the origin of Nsibidi in Ejagham people provide photos, archeological artefacts, peer-reviewed evidences to back up their claims of Ejagham migration." This constitutes original research. in wikipedia's parlance, and is not allowed.

CHI-Research, I urge you to read WP:SCHOLARSHIP and WP:HISTRS on what type of sources are preferred for this type of content on wikipedia and read WP:OR for what kind of analysis is not permitted in article-space. Also, suggest that any proposed edits to this article regarding the Nsibidi origins be discussed on this talkpage, instead of being repeatedly added/removed from the article, so that consensus can be reached.

Pinging Gawaon who has been involved in this debate and admin Doug Weller in case article protection or user sanctions are needed. Abecedare (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Below, this is how GAWAON's sentences read:

"Used as a ceremonial script by secret societies, the Igbo have an indigenous ideographic set of symbols called Nsibidi, whose origin is now generally attributed to the neighboring Ejagham people, though in the 1900s J. K. Macgregor recorded a "native tradition" attributing it to the Uguakima or Uyanga section of the Igbo."

TWO SUGGESTIONs:

1.

WE remove GAWAON's sentence on Macgregor [from ...though...] because it was omitted in the page in the first place and I wanted to add it. I will add a phrase for the agreed submission to read as follows:

"Used as a ceremonial script by secret societies, the Igbo have an indigenous ideographic set of symbols called Nsibidi, whose origin is now generally attributed to the neighboring Ejagham people, even as an archeological study in 1909 attribute the origin of Nsibidi to subgroups of Igbo people."

2.

GAWAON deletes sentences added to the Reference section Citations 82-85. If not, I will add more sources and add texts to those in the Reference section as well. CHI-Research (talk) 19:35, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

CHI-Research, I'll let Gawaon respond to the first suggestion about the exact phrasing but as for (2): I don't see any reason to remove the quotes that unobtrusively provide useful information to the reader. You are welcome to present here on the talkpage other modern scholarly sources that argue a different POV and we can discuss if they should be added to the article (see WP:DUE). Abecedare (talk) 20:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your response.

I would like to inform you that am not treating this as a battleground, and apologize if it comes across that way.

I just feel like GAWAON does not want the source to be added, if you check the threads since June 19, 2024.

My response is to point out that the source is a relevant source, even though 'old,' which for a historical topic is preferred, per Wikipedia Reliable Source policy. Yet, it was missing.

ADDING TEXTS TO THE REFERENCE SECTION: Is it consistent with the policy?

If GAWAON would add useful information to the citations in the Reference section, may other users add too? I ask because I consider some information as useful for readers. GAWAON discusses/elaborates on the content of sources. If policy allows users to provide extra information for readers, what I am doing is pointing out why I should be able to do the same thing. Basically, I read what GAWAON and other users post and then try to do the same.

I wait for the resolution of the matter. CHI-Research (talk) 20:19, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

even though 'old,' which for a historical topic is preferred, per Wikipedia Reliable Source policy. This is not true! See WP:HISTRS . WP:SCHOLARSHIP. I guess that the confusion is arising from the last para of WP:AGEMATTERS but note that that is talking about (near) real-time coverage of events and is not relevant here. If this article were discussing specific details of Macgregor's findings than it could be argued that his own writings are a better source for those than later summaries. But here we are simply trying to summarize what current day scholars think about the origins of Nsibidi and the Macgregor bit of the sentence (if it is to be retained) is included only for its historiographical interest and not because Macgregor's theories outweigh research over the subsequent century.

Regarding the ...may other users add too? question: it is difficult to discuss this in terms of hypotheticals. Please present here the actual sources and content you wish to add and we can consider them per WP:RS and WP:DUE. Abecedare (talk) 21:03, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

On the Age Matters policy it states:

"With regard to historical events, older reports (closer to the event, but not too close such that they are prone to the errors of breaking news) tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing."

Discovering an ancient writing system is a historic event, as defined. But as you previously informed, it is not about truth. Therefore, one only needs to cite the paper. there are newspapers, blogs, videos that attribute the origin to Igbo people. My intention is not to add all those sources, because they make the same case as Macgregor. Similarly, there is no need adding 4 sources on Ejagham when they make the same case, either migration or colonial officers. So, let's ignore all that and agree to cite two citations to highlight migration and 'colonial officers for Ejagham people and Macgregor for Igbo people.

Then we word it as in my first suggestion. Let's agree to that.

Regarding adding texts to the Reference section, I suggest that if GAWAON keeps the texts as they are in the Reference section, I will structure sentences similarly to elaborate on my sources. It depends if GAWAON's texts stay as they or not. CHI-Research (talk) 21:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I am stating that discovering an ancient writing system is a historic event and that the only way to change the story is by showing new information, backed up by evidences, artefacts and photos.

Still, if one finds new information by way of oral tradition or hearsay, it may be published.

I understand that, per Wikipedia policy, such publications can be cited.

Therefore, both sources can co-exist in the page.

How do we structure the sentence given the issue raised on this?

My first suggestion, in my opinion, on how the wordings may be is neutral on any personal (mis) interpretation, while still informing readers about both sources of the origin of Nsibidi. CHI-Research (talk) 21:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Fwiw, I would support removing the 1912 Talbot reference since it is both dated and redundant. But again this is not a "negotiation of the form "you do this or I'll do this". Instead of repeatedly "threatening" to structure sentences similarly to elaborate on my sources actually present those sources here. Abecedare (talk) 21:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

The reason I am stating "similarly" is to ensure that I conform to existing rules. basically, I am informing you that I will create a sentence to conform to the rules. I can go to different pages to check for other elaborations as an example in creating my texts. That is what I mean. I just want to know what conforms or not. The post on photos and artefacts, I did not know that it was not allowed. Thus, I am saying that I need to check other texts in the reference, as an example. Is that not allowed? CHI-Research (talk) 21:47, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

4. https://www.endangeredalphabets.net/alphabets/nsibidi/

5.

https://www.pulse.ng/lifestyle/food-travel/nsibidi-do-you-know-about-the-ancient-igbo-system-of-writing/65b16p0

6.

https://georgeakor.medium.com/nsibidi-the-ancient-african-script-that-inspired-wakandas-writing-system-57ed03b5bfd3

7.

https://modernnsibidiproject.com/index.html

8.

https://panafrocore.com/2024/03/20/nsibidi-the-ancient-symbolic-proto-writing-script-of-nigerias-ekpe-society/

9. https://www.iiste.org/Journals/index.php/ADS/article/viewFile/20440/20859 CHI-Research (talk) 22:14, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

As I await your response, I would like to update my suggestion to account for the following two sources.

1.

A Book by Pauline E. Aligwekwe:

The Continuity of Traditional Values in African Society: The Igbo of Nigeria

2.

Dryell, E. (1911): “Further notes on Nsibidi signs with their meanings from the Ikom district southern Nigeria” in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland Vol. XLI.

My updated suggestion will now read as follows:

"Used as a ceremonial script by secret societies, the Igbo have an indigenous ideographic set of symbols called Nsibidi, whose origin is now generally attributed to the neighboring Ejagham people. An anthropological study in 1909 attributes the origin of Nsibidi to subgroups of Igbo people, even as archeological findings of Igbo Ukwu bronzes dating back to the 9th century bear marks of ancient Uli arts motifs (Aligwekwe,2008), a likely precursor to the Nsibidi motifs of the subgroups of Igbo people," confirming the findings (Dryell, 1911) that individual groups/subgroups in the Cross River region created their own uniquely Nsibidi motifs."

Let me know. Thank you. CHI-Research (talk) 16:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Other Sources:

https://powerofafrica.com/tpost/prhymlb551-nsibidi-an-ancient-system-of-writing-of CHI-Research (talk) 21:49, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I could get up to 30 citations, including PHD thesis.The point is that they point o Igbo people or Ejagham people:

1.

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/semi.2010.061/html

2.

https://ndiigboworldwide.com/nsibidi/ CHI-Research (talk) 21:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

My suggestion has been updated to reflect that Macgregor's paper is an anthropological study:

"Used as a ceremonial script by secret societies, the Igbo have an indigenous ideographic set of symbols called Nsibidi, whose origin is now generally attributed to the neighboring Ejagham people, even as an anthropological study in 1909 attribute the origin of Nsibidi to subgroups of Igbo people." 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 12:38, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. The Nwosu article (p. 286 and Note 2) is useful and I'll wait for Gawaon to weight in before commenting any further. The other references, to random blogs and websites, are not close to the expected standard of scholarly sources needed here; please value other editors time and use better discretion when listing other sources for review here. There is no rush. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 22:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I did not know how soon you needed the information. I will limit to peer-reviewed articles, at least 3-5, but there are many. CHI-Research (talk) 22:19, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Abecedare, thanks for helping to sort this out! I'll reply to the content questions tomorrow. Gawaon (talk) 22:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

All right, I'm back. CHI-Research, you have essentially suggested changing 'Macgregor recorded a "native tradition" attributing it' to 'an archeological study in 1909 attribute[s]'. I don't think we should do that because that was no archaeological study, and we shouldn't mislead our audience. All that Macgregor wrote regarding the origin is a single paragraph where he states that, according to a "native tradition", it came from the Uguakima or Uyanga (Igbo groups); the Uguakima in their turn said they had it from baboons. That's all there is to it. You know that, you've presumably read the paper and we have already discussed it on your talk page. Talbot, writing a few years later, simply called this an "interesting legend".

Abecedare, you suggested removing Talbot's 1912 book "since it is both dated and redundant". Well it's not essential, but I think it's good to have as long as we reference Macgregor's paper too (and why not?), since he wrote so shortly after Macgregor, tried to verify the latter's origin tale, and failed. His book is also the first published work to trace the script's origin to the Ekoi/Ejagham, for all I know. So I'd say it's historically interesting and good to have, unless we remove the old sources (both Talbot and Macgregor) completely.

The Nwosu paper is interesting and we could use the note 2 (on p. 301) as further source for Macgregor attributing the script to the Igbo, in addition to or possibly instead of the primary source. Otherwise the author seems to consider an origin among the Ekoi/Ejeagham as most likely – that's the only theory he covers in the main text (p. 286), while relegating the discussion of other suggested origins to that endnote. Within the endnote, there is – besides the Macgregor reference – little of substance that would suggest an Igbo origin, as far as I can see. He mentions somebody's "personal communication", but that's hardly an RS according to our standards. Another theory the author discusses, though "not necessarily to support it" (p. 287) is that the script originated among the Efik people, and in the endnote somebody suggests that the Efik may simply be considered an Igbo subgroup/spin-off. But that seems hardly relevant for the question of an actual Igbo origin, and Nwosu themselves treats the "Efik theory" as essentially just an interesting speculation, as far as I can see. Gawaon (talk) 07:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Point of correction. I mistakenly stated archeological instead of anthropological study.

It should therefore read as suggested "...an anthropological study.. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 12:35, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't sound like an improvement, I think the current (more specific) wording is fine. And Macgregor wasn't technically an anthropologist either. Gawaon (talk) 13:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The paper was published in "The Journal of Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland." That ought to settle it as an anthropological study. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 13:06, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

This book has a more elaborate explanation on the origin of Nsibidi in Igbo people.

The narrative is that an ancient visual communication art "ULI" may have influenced the some Nsibidi motifs of subgroups of Igbos in the Cross River region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uli_(design)

A Book by Pauline E. Aligwekwe:

The Continuity of Traditional Values in African Society: The Igbo of Nigeria

In the book, check the section entitled "Postulate on the Origin of Igbo" subsection C (Linguistic findings)

Information like tis may be added to the Igbo page too.

There are many books and PhD dissertations, and papers on the Igbo origin of Nsibidi, but it is not necessary to add all citations. Let us decide which ones to add.

By the way, the Efik (some claim they are the same as Ekoi and also actually a clan of Ibibio people) claims on Nsibidi ought to merit a space as well. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 14:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I would like you to pay attention that the ULI motifs was used on the Igbo Ukwu bronzes dating back to 9th century.

So, the ULI motifs may explain some uniquely Nsibidi motifs of subgroups of Igbos in the Cross River region.

This paper shows that different groups/subgroups created their own motifs:

Dryell, E. (1911): “Further notes on Nsibidi signs with their meanings from the Ikom district southern Nigeria” in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland Vol. XLI. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 14:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Typo Correction:

I would like you to pay attention that the ULI motifs WERE used on the Igbo Ukwu bronzes dating back to 9th century. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 14:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

As I await your response, I would like to update my suggestion to account for the following two sources.

1.

A Book by Pauline E. Aligwekwe:

The Continuity of Traditional Values in African Society: The Igbo of Nigeria

2.

Dryell, E. (1911): “Further notes on Nsibidi signs with their meanings from the Ikom district southern Nigeria” in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland Vol. XLI.

My updated suggestion will now read as follows:

"Used as a ceremonial script by secret societies, the Igbo have an indigenous ideographic set of symbols called Nsibidi, whose origin is now generally attributed to the neighboring Ejagham people. An anthropological study in 1909 attributes the origin of Nsibidi to subgroups of Igbo people, even as archeological findings of Igbo Ukwu bronzes dating back to the 9th century bear marks of ancient Uli arts motifs (Aligwekwe,2008), a likely precursor to the Nsibidi motifs of the subgroups of Igbo people published by Macgregor," confirming findings (Dryell, 1911) that individual groups/subgroups in the Cross River region have their own Nsibidi motifs." 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 16:17, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your links, and I'll check that book out sooner or later, but frankly, for this article we have entirely enough. We can still tweak the wording and source selection a little, but otherwise we should be good here and I don't think any additional sources make much sense here. Everything else should go into the Nsibidi article – which is still in need of considerably clean-up after your POV pushing, I'm afraid. Gawaon (talk) 16:42, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Abecedare wanted me to provide more sources to back up the Igbo origin of Nsibidi, and suggest how the wordings in the page ought to be.

The book is a very useful source on showing the Igbo origin of Nsibidi, tying it intelligibly to ancient Uli motifs. The Igbo Ukwu bronzes, from 9th century, bear the Uli motifs, making a likely precursor of Nsibidi motifs.

The Dryell's paper (1911) is useful, because it shows that some Nsibidi motifs are unique to some subgroups. CHI-Research (talk) 16:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Macgregor and Aligwekwe perfectly belongs to the Igbo page. Because you did not want the Macgregor's source in the page, in the first instance, you should not revert my post and create a sentence on it. CHI-Research (talk) 17:02, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Macgregor and Aligwekwe perfectly belong in the Igbo page. Because you did not want the Macgregor's source in the page, in the first instance, you should not revert my post and create a sentence on it. CHI-Research (talk) 17:03, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• Quick comments:
  • @Gawaon:: good point on what Nwosu chooses to discuss in the main text of his paper and what he relegates to the endnotes. For this article, the former is more relevant with any details from the latter potentially include-able in the Nsibidi article.
  • (minor) I see your point about Talbot (1912) balancing MacGregor (1905) but my concerns is that it does not really support the sentence fragment it is attached to since a 1912 paper cannot attest to what is the mainstream scholarly opinion "now". Also the Nsibidi article may be a better venue to get into the timeline, evidence and reasoning behind the various origin theories with this article just laying out the conclusion(s). That said this is not a sticking point for me since we are talking about one additional citation that can be of use to the interested reader.
  • @CHI-Research:: The Continuity of Traditional Values in the African Society: The Igbò of Nigeria (2nd ed) is self-published via Xlibris and given the indisputably scholarly sources available on this topic, is not usable in article-space.

Abecedare (talk) 22:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

All right, I'll remove the Talbot and add the reference to Nwosu's article/endnote probably later today (unless you or somebody else here does it first). And thanks for the due diligence on Aligwekwe's book! Gawaon (talk) 05:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that Aligwekwe's book can be a reliable source given that she got her PHD from Sobornne University, taught in the University in Nigeria, teaching in the United States, professor of anthropology, and her book has featured at Cambridge University. Besides, the policy remains that citations do not have to be an "original research."

Besides, the book's relevance is to highlight that the ancient Uli arts motifs, found on the Igbo Ukwu bronzes, that are traceable to the 9th century, may have influenced the creation of Nsibidi motifs among Igbo subgroups, including the Arochukwu.

Apart from Aligwekwe's book, the link between Uli motifs and Nsibidi motifs among the Igbo people has been discussed elsewhere including here (check for the Ottenberg;s book for a detailed elaboration):

Harris, M. D. (2003). [Review of The Nsukka Artists and Nigerian Contemporary Art, by S. Ottenberg]. The International Journal of African Historical Studies, 36(1), 186–188. https://doi.org/10.2307/3559351

My point therefore is that if it is pointed out that Macgregor attributes the origin of Nsibidi to subgroups of Igbos, a SENTENCE informing readers that there is evidence that Uli motifs are a precursor to the Nsibidi motifs among Igbo subgroups. The citation can be Aligwekwe (on her recognition as an anthropologists), Ottenberg or both.

Let me know.

Thank you. CHI-Research (talk) 14:04, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that Aligwekwe's book can be a reliable source given that she got her PHD from Sobornne University, taught in the university in Nigeria, is currently teaching in the United States,professor of anthropology, and her book has featured at Cambridge University. Besides, the policy remains that citations do not have to be an "original research."

The book's relevance is to highlight that the ancient Uli arts motifs, found on the Igbo Ukwu bronzes, that are traceable to the 9th century, may have influenced the creation of Nsibidi motifs among Igbo subgroups, including the Arochukwu.

Apart from Aligwekwe's book, the link between Uli motifs and Nsibidi motifs among the Igbo people has been discussed elsewhere including here (check for the Ottenberg's book for a detailed elaboration):

Harris, M. D. (2003). [Review of The Nsukka Artists and Nigerian Contemporary Art, by S. Ottenberg]. The International Journal of African Historical Studies, 36(1), 186–188. https://doi.org/10.2307/3559351

My point therefore is that if it is pointed out that Macgregor attributes the origin of Nsibidi to subgroups of Igbos, a SENTENCE can be added to inform readers that there is evidence that Uli motifs are a precursor to the Nsibidi motifs among Igbo subgroups. This information is useful to let readers know the likely source of Nsibidi motifs among Igbo subgroups. Dryell (1911) confirms that some Nsibidi motifs are unique to individual subgroups.

The citation then can be Aligwekwe (on her recognition as an anthropologist), Ottenberg,and Dryell.

Let me know. CHI-Research (talk) 14:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Please stop saying everything twice! As for the link between Uli and Nsibidi, I think it's too specialized for this article, though it might fit into the Nsibidi article, if reliable sources do actually make it. Gawaon (talk) 14:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that the information about the existence of Uli motifs centuries before Nsibidi in the region sheds light on the source of some Nsibisi motifs. This is even more important to highlight the existence of Uli motifs, because both Macgregor and Ejagham proponents reported the source to be from Baboons and mermaids, respectively.

This information should be in the Nsibidi page as well. Thank you. CHI-Research (talk) 15:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

@CHI-Research: I don't have immediate access to the Ottenburg volume, whose review you linked to. If you do, could you email me a pdf of the Simon Battestini article? The review says that it talks "about nsibidi script found in nearby ethnic cultures and [is] used by some of the Nsukka artists in their work" and I would like to figure out (1) if the author is talking about current day use or the origins, and (2) who the nearby ethnic cultures mentioned in the review are (since even the Ejagham would qualify).

Note that, as I said above, IMO details about the potential evidence (as opposed to conclusions) about Nsibidi origins don't belong in the Igbo people article but can be added to the nsibidi article. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 13:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your time on this matter. I really appreciate it.

1.

I have access to the Battestini's article here, https://www.jstor.org/stable/524257?seq=3, but it the accompanying pictures get distorted/omitted when copied.

• If you can't access it, I can send you a PDF copy which omits the pictures/photos.

This is the citation:

Simon P. X. Battestini. (1991). Reading Signs of Identity and Alterity: History, Semiotics and a Nigerian Case. African Studies Review, 34(1), 99–116. https://doi.org/10.2307/524257

2.

I could not find/access the Ottenberg's book unfortunately.

3.

The key point is to show reliable citations that Uli motifs has been in existence in Igbo land for centuries, and are a likely precursor to some Nsibidi motifs of Igbo subgroups, especially the Igbo subgroups of Arochukwu and Abriba that Macgregor referenced as a source of findings of Igbo origin of Nsibidi.

4.

This is how I want to show that:

Based on the Harris' review, it is clear that Uli arts motifs exist, and we know that it dates back to periods before the 9th century, given that Igbo Ukwu bronzes bear on them the uli motifs.

In view, I suggest we cite this paper which discusses Uli arts and link it to Igbo subgroups of Arochukwu and Abriba:

Willis, L. (1989). “Uli” Painting and the Igbo World View. African Arts, 23(1), 62–104. https://doi.org/10.2307/3336801

This information is useful to provide context to Macgregor's (1909) findings, and Dryell's (1911) assertion that some Nsibidi motifs are localized.

Attention:

(We may disregard citation of Aligwekwe's book. The only piece of information which the book may add is that some Igbo subgroups till date refer to both (Uli and Nsibidi) motifs as Uri motifs, as they have known it for centuries, for they see them as an evolution of what their people have known for centuries)

Please let me know if this suggestion works.

Thank you. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 18:14, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I have access to, and have browsed through, the Battestini and the Willis articles that you linked to in your recent post. Can you quote the exact text from those articles that speaks to the origins of Nsibidi? I didn't find anything relevant. In the meantime, please do not list any other source here so that we are not playing whack-a-mole with shifting targets. Abecedare (talk) 18:42, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I only cited Ottenberg. I did not bring up Battestini in the first place; you wanted me to check it out.

The Wikipedia page in question is Igbo page. Right after the reference on Nsibidi, the next paragraph discusses Igbo Ukwu bronzes.

While Nsibidi motifs are discussed, the attribution of Uli arts motifs to Igbo people is completely missing. Yet, it is an important contribution of Igbo people.

It is therefore a useful information in of itself to be added to the page; more importantly, as a motif, discussing it in the message also provides context to the attribution of the origin of Nsibidi to Igbo subgroups in the Abriba axis..

We can use Willis as citation for Uli arts.

Thank you. CHI-Research (talk) 19:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Check Page 63 of Willis for Arochukwu's Uli arts motifs.

Arochukwu is the same as Abriba people, referenced by Macgregor. Check Wikipedia page on Abriba. CHI-Research (talk) 19:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Ottenberg (2002) is an edited volume, which includes an article by Simon Battestini apparently linked to Nsibidi. But since neither one us have access to that book at the moment, there is no point discussing that further. And since Willis (1989) does not even mention Nsibidi, it is not relevant to this discussion about origins of Nsibidi either. So I think we are done here as far as that topic is concerned.

If you wish to propose other improvements to the article, I'd suggest that you post a request using {{Edit partially-blocked}} in a separate section. Abecedare (talk) 19:44, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I have submitted a proposal to update the Igbo people page, with the information that Igbo people created Uli Motifs for expressing their common activities and philosophical outlook.

Please let me know.

Thank you. CHI-Research (talk) 20:53, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Pending request on Nsibidi:

As you may remember, apart from the citation request, I also requested that this portion of the Nsibidi statement be reworded.

My request at a minimum is that the inverted commas in the phrase "native tradition" be removed.

That way, the updated statement reads as follows:

"...though in the 1900s J. K. Macgregor recorded a native tradition attributing it to the Uguakima or Uyanga section of the Igbo."

Please let me know. Thank you. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:C52F:1112:A1A5:3829 (talk) 02:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I was not logged in to post the previous version. Please find below the logged-in version of my post on rewording extant statement on Nsibidi:

Pending request on Nsibidi:

As you may remember, apart from the citation request, I also requested that this portion of the Nsibidi statement be reworded.

My request at a minimum is that the inverted commas in the phrase "native tradition" be removed.

That way, the updated statement reads as follows:

"...though in the 1900s J. K. Macgregor recorded a native tradition attributing it to the Uguakima or Uyanga section of the Igbo."

Please let me know. Thank you. CHI-Research (talk) 02:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it matters much one way or the other, but I have now removed the quotation marks. Gawaon (talk) 06:43, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

It creates an impression of doubt, overall. Thank you. CHI-Research (talk) 17:27, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Attribution of Uli Arts Motifs to Igbo People

Dear Sir/Madam:

I noticed that there was no attribution of the Uli Arts motifs to the Igbo people in the Igbo people page.

May I respectfully request that the following section be added to the Igbo people page:

"Igbo people also created the Uli motifs, dating back to periods prior to the 9th century (Onwuakpa, 2016) and with some commonality to Nsibidi motifs (Asogwa et al., 2021, Section 4.1), for expressing common activities and philosophical outlook (Willis,1989)."

CITATIONS 1. Onwuakpa, S. (April, 2016). Visuality and Representation in Traditional Igbo Uli Body and Mud Wall Paintings. African Research Review, Vol. 10(2), No. 41, p.346. https://docslib.org/doc/2178557/visuality-and-representation-in-traditional-igbo-uli-body-and

2. Asogwa, O., Odoh, G., & Geraghty, L. (2021). Reappraising the iconography and ethno-aesthetics of Adada masquerade of the Nsukka Igbo, southeast Nigeria. Cogent Arts & Humanities, 8(1). https://doi.org/10.1080/23311983.2021.1909221

3. Willis, L. (1989). “Uli” Painting and the Igbo World View. African Arts, 23(1), 62–104. https://doi.org/10.2307/3336801 — Preceding unsigned comment added by CHI-Research (talk • contribs) 20:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Not done, since the Uli designs are already mentioned twice, at the end of the "Traditional Igbo architecture and designs" and the beginning of the "Attire" sections. That should be sufficient. Gawaon (talk) 11:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

It is a common practice across Wikipedia to mention a topic in more than one section, if useful. Uli design has relevance in different sections for its various uses. Notice that Nsibidi, for example, is mentioned not only in "Traditional Igbo Architecture and Designs{ section but also in the "Language and Literature" section. 2603:7000:CD02:666C:7DC3:549F:EEE1:EE16 (talk) 19:14, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry please...keep forgetting to log in:

It is a common practice across Wikipedia to mention a topic in more than one section, if useful. Uli design has relevance in different sections for its various uses. Notice that Nsibidi, for example, is mentioned not only in "Traditional Igbo Architecture and Designs{ section but also in the "Language and Literature" section. CHI-Research (talk) 19:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Don't edit your suggestions after they were already denied, that's too confusing. I won't participate in this section anymore. Gawaon (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

My suggestion was not edited. It remains as presented before you commented.

Then, since the decision on the original request is pending, I merely added a second request to the page. Is there any policy against adding a second request? CHI-Research (talk) 20:13, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

You edited it, but Abecedare reverted you later. Not exactly the same as "was not edited". Also, the decision regarding this request is not pending, it was denied – at least that's my position. As for adding a second request, I see you did that already. Sure, why not, but keep in mind that other editors, myself included, aren't here for your benefit. We'll respond to your suggestions if we consider them relevant and helpful, but not necessarily otherwise. Gawaon (talk) 21:09, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

You gave your conjecture for not accepting my suggestion. How does your conjecture turn it automatically into a denial? You still have not responded to my point that Uli design serve at least a dual purpose, a visual communication motif in which body design art is one of them. The same way that Nsibidi is mentioned in two separate sections. My concern when I read your comment is that there is this sense of 'finality' in you submissions. If you have a point, please communicate it but also be willing to elaborate on that. I would like to know why it works for Nsibidi, for example, to be mentioned in two sections but not Uli motifs. Let me know. Thank you. CHI-Research (talk) 21:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Attribution of Oja and Ubo Musical Instruments to Igbo Page

Dear Sir/Madam: I noticed that there were no attributions of oja and ubo musical instruments to the Igbo page, in the Performing Arts section.

May I respectfully request, to account for both instruments, that the first paragraph of the section read as follows:

"The Igbo people have a musical style into which they incorporate various percussion instruments: the udu, which is essentially designed from a clay jug; an ekwe, which is formed from a hollowed log; and the ogene, a hand bell designed from forged iron. Other instruments include oja, a notched wooden flute; opi, a wind instrument similar to the flute made with animal, like elephant, horns; ubo, a thumb piano; igba, a wooden cylinder drum covered on one side with animal skin; and ichaka, a rattle chaplet bead, basket and metal types."(Umezinwa & Orajaka, 2019)."

CITATION Umezinwa, E.C. & E. Orajaka. (2019). The Making of an Igbo Musical Instrument: Interview with Anakwenze Nwude. Nnadiebube Journal of Social Sciences. Vol. 2(2), pp.3-4.

Please let me know.

Thank you. CHI-Research (talk) 21:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)