Talk:In Freundschaft

Inline references

Which paragraphs or sentences in this article lack inline references?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

That's what I thought. No one awake in the driver's box of the bot. Removing mistaken banner.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:44, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:In Freundschaft/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Aza24 (talk · contribs) 05:59, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Will look at this in the coming days—a lovely tribute to Jerome! Aza24 (talk) 05:59, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for taking it! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:26, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Lead

• "The serial composition" (almost like saying "The Baroque composition") is very awkward phrasing and makes it sound like it being serial is what makes it playable on other instruments.

  I tried. --GA

• the next part of the sentence "playable on a wide variety of solo instruments" is rather misleading. Stockhausen himself arranged the work for various instruments (see List of compositions by Karlheinz Stockhausen#I) so the work is not "playable" on anything other than the clarinet, but has been arranged for all sorts of instruments

  I tried. --GA

• "a flute version by both Lucille Goeres and Marjorie Shansky" — not sure if they were the flutists, or the arrangers

  tried to clarify --GA

• "Goeres also played the first public performance at a summer course there" — again, which instrument was it played on?

  she's now a declared flutist --GA

• The lead right now is just a skimmed version of the history section

  There was no lead at all. --GA

  • It needs to include a lot more of the analysis section

    I may have to ask someone more familiar with Stockhausen and musical analysis. --GA

     Done - RC

  • I do wonder if every performer and occasion needs to be mentioned here. Perhaps we limit it to the first few and then make a list. "The work has since been arranged, by Stockhausen and others, for violin, viola... "?

    I's say yes immediately if not the friendship to these people matched the idea of the piece. Will think. --GA

    I'd argue that the important bit (for the lead) is mentioning that it was later arranged for other instruments. Whether the current version does that in the ideal format, I'm not sure, feel free to improve - RC

  • Something about the discography should be said as well; presumably just a simple line about the fact that many recordings exist for all sorts of instrumentation

    agree --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:26, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

     Done - RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:35, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

History

• Just to clarify, the piece was first performed twice, back to back, by two flutists?

  That's what I understand. --GA

• "Stockhausen reworked the composition on 27 April 1978, at which time he also made versions for oboe, trumpet, violin, and viola" makes it sound like he did all of this in one day, is that the intention?

  I wish we could ask Jerome. --GA

• Is there a link or something that could clarify what "Musik des 20. Jahrhunderts" is?

  Will have to see. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• "to low C" could mean a lot of things, recommend using Scientific pitch notation link the analysis section

  ... which is Chinese to me - Michael, I saw you improving already, please feel free to help further, you know more about English music analysis and you knew Jerome longer, so perhaps intentions?? --GA

  "low C" on a standard clarinet (i.e. I assume that we're not referring to a bass clarinet or something) is likely equivalent to middle C (hence C4); given the usual range of the instrument. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• "are authorised"–not sure what this means, "are playable" maybe? That would make sense for the bass clarinet reading a clarinet part (though I have no idea about bassett horn)

  also not sure, see above --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Analysis

Admittedly, I may have to read this section again, but it seems solid...

• I don't suppose there's anyway we could get any sheet music in this section?

  I'm afraid that it's still under copyright. RandomCanadian is my expert for such things, - perhaps excerpt for educational purposes? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Yep, it's definitively under copyright. However, if I'm reading the first sentence correctly, then it should be possible to give the "basic form" of the formula "presented at the outset of the work" as, indeed, a rather obvious example of fair use. Quoting the passage one is analysing is usually entirely routine; the only question is how much of it needs to be given to satisfy an encyclopedic summary - I'd say that Zelinsky and Smeyers give you enough material (they include, notably, the basic form as figure [Beispiel] 1) to be able to choose which ones are the most relevant. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 11:27, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• A bit unrelated to the above, but it would be ideal if close paraphrase (even in translation) could be avoided; the above mentioned piece by Zelinsky and Smeyers has:

Alle musikalische Parameter (Tonhöhe, Tondauer, Dynamik und Klangfarbe) von In Freundschaft werden bestimmt durch die Konstruction einer Formel, die in ihrer Grundgestalt zu Beginn des Werkes erklingt

Which is rather too similar to what is in the article:

The four parameters of pitch, duration, dynamics, and timbre in In Freundschaft are all determined by the construction of a musical formula, the basic form of which is presented at the outset of the work.

At least, to my taste. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 11:27, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I tried to phrase it the other way round, please check if it still means the same. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:29, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Discography

• The Stockhausen-Verlag should be explained somehow, or linked to something

  yes, will see - this was a quick morning round, - I hope I'll get back to it with more time later today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  We could link to Karlheinz Stockhausen#Publishing activities, or make a stub for the publishing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Other

• I'm hesitant about the benefit of linking to a blog ([1]) Aza24 (talk) 05:30, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  In general, I'm also hesitant, but that one has the sheet music. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:35, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• This lacks a section on how well the work was received by musicians, music critics, and audiences. I'm not sure if this is just because there isn't much coverage, or because it's a bit harder to find given "Freundschaft" is an ordinary German word. Just a quick google search yields this recording review, which does have the interesting bit that "The challenge for the performer is to articulate the structure of a seven-times-repeating formula with its teasing deviations while maintaining the personalities of two distinct melodic layers – one high and quiet, the other low and loud." RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

  Well, to me the eagerness of all these musicians to get a version tells a story of acceptance but perhaps we can find more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

  Other aspect: the movement as in [2]. It has the notes of the formula, - could we have that, perhaps, RandomCanadian? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:56, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

  @Gerda Arendt: Ich habe schon diese Frage geantwortet, (see my first comment dated 11:27, 8 September 2021 (UTC)). Yes, you can have it. Unless you're asking me to actually put it in the article? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:18, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

  Where else? By we I meant us readers ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Finding sources

I keep looking for references, please let me know what you think of each:

• short description: Stockhausen: In Freundschaft Appalachian State University
• 1988 CD review (clarinet, without mentioning details of this piece): Whittall, Arnold: Stockhausen: Instrumental Works Gramophone (magazine)
• Book review (of the Cohen book, first in Sources list) by Jerome Kohl, no idea how much about the piece

  update: i received that review, and based a short background section on it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:56, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

What I was looking for and didn't find was a replacement of the English edition from the Stockhausen-Verlag, - dead link. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:41, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• one more, CD review: musicweb - it's about a 2009 reissue of a 1992 recording of Markus Stockhausen playing a trumpet, recorded on the Rosenhof in Erfststadt in 1992 - I think we don't have that yet.

  update: as elsewhere Markus St. is said to have avoided the piece until his father gave him his own (1997), that would be rather sensational. But could also just be a typo?? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:56, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

• another: Stockhausen, Karlheinz - Tierkreis für Bassklarinette & Klavier / Spieluhren des Lebens (in German) magazin.klassik.com 29 July 2007--Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:41, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
• another, rich text: Stockhausen Edition no. 32 / (Musik für Klarinette, Baßklarinette, Bassetthorn sonoloco.com --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Searching

The Stockhausen article has the statement that Tierkreis and In Freundschaft are the composer's most widely performed and recorded pieces, with three references, but I can access only one of them, which only speaks of Tierkreis. Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

CBC Obit. "In the 1970s, he took up "formula composition" and created a simple style that became a model for a new generation of German composers. Tierkreis (Zodiac) and In Freundschaft (In Friendship) are his most recorded works from this period." - so not quite exactly the same statement as in the article. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

That's great. Will think sleep over it, - too tired for useful sentences right now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:32, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

now quoted --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:24, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Overall I think this article meets the GA requirements; the reception section is obvsiouly short but I looked around myself to no luck in finding information for that. Maybe for FAC it would need to be expanded, but for GA it seems fine. Thanks Gerda and RC for the many improvements. Promoting now. Aza24 (talk) 01:24, 30 September 2021 (UTC)