Talk:Indie pop/Archive 1

One word or two

It doesn't seem like there's much point in "indie pop" being two words with the article like it is. People who are into indiepop in the sense it is being used on this page refer to it as one word, and people who use it as a general catchall for indie music with pop influences tend to use the space. Thus, "indie pop" as two words is just a widely-used descriptor (meaning something akin to indie/pop) and indiepop as one word is a genre.--Tinyfolk (talk) 19:16, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Indie pop is popular music. Thus is it not alternative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.105.134.168 (talk) 18:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

So this page had 104 pages linking to it, and I decided it was worth an article of it's own rather than redirecting into either indie rock or music. I've just done a quick explanation, please expand as you see fit. The list is just bands that link to this page already that I recognized. Pretty POV that way, I admit, but it's a start. I also added indie pop to template:popmusic Arturus 11:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I removed Weezer from the list, since they are not an indie-pop band, but a power pop/pop-rock band. The New Pornographer's indie-pop status is also a little questionable. Waiting For Godard

New Pornographers aren't any kind of indiepop band. I've added a history of the genre. I checked my facts as I went along, I think it's pretty accurate as far as facts (dates, names, etc.) go. Obviously, there is room for dissent (and improvement) in the subjective history bits. I seem to have forgotten my username; I'm Steve Thornton, I run the indiepop list. I know you folks don't care about credentials but I do know a thing or two about the subject.216.231.46.147 01:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I have a strong preference for "indiepop" not "indie pop".

I added some bands and removed others -- going for a bit more of the historical perspective. Steve T. 216.231.46.147 01:16, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I would rather "indie pop", actually.

Anyone else agree that there should be an indie pop category? --Rachel Cakes 03:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I added a reference to The Beach Boys, whose sound was very influential to a lot of indie pop bands, particularly the Elephant 6 bands.

I think that the definition paragraph needs some work, though. It seems overly verbose, self-contradictory, and inaccurate. I don't think the term indie-pop is really all that nebulous, nor do I think that the key features of pop music are radio-friendliness and disposability. I think the most important and obvious elements of pop music are melody, song structures, simple harmonies, and use of the voice.

Indie pop is most fundamentally just a subgenre of pop music that's made by independent bands, which seems to be what the first sentence of the definition indicates. But then the last sentence says: "Indie pop is thus the pop music that operates outside of the boundaries of conventional pop music." That's not true. There are plenty of well-known indie pop songs which don't defy convention in any significant way, and there are convention-defying pop songs which are not indie. Indie pop can be defined more precisely by describing some of its common features, like lo-fi-ness, twee-ness, instrumentation (glockenspiels, melodicas, strings, etc. are all very common indie pop signifiers), and subject matter, but none of those things on their own necessarily make something indie pop. 158.223.25.94 15:46, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Stop adding Escape Velocity to this list. There isn't even an entry about them to link to. The purpose of this entry is not self promotion. 158.223.1.117 16:13, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Great to see many notable indie artists on wikipedia. Love it! Indeed it's not for selfpromotion: it's an encyclopedia after all. However (and this may sound like selfpromotion, but it's just one indie fan helping another), for all bands, scenes, labels, musicians and records you can now go too Indiepedia.org. Indiepedia currently has some content copied from Wikipedia. We urge our submitters to give proper credit where it's due, of course. If you want to write about a band that may not be notable enough for Wikipedia, consider Indiepedia! --PoofBird 10:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I've removed, at least for now, 'girl groups' from the stylistic origins of indie pop. At the very least, an explanation is needed before it should be put back up. And before you do, please consider the definition given by the girl group article: 'A girl group, as the name implies, is a musical group featuring a group consisting usually of young female singers, singing mostly pop and R&B songs. It is essentially the female equivalent of a boy band. They are distinct from girl bands and all-women bands, where the women sing and play instruments.' -- 1:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The idea behind "girl groups" as an origin, I think, was specifically 60s girl groups, and the type of simple structures and harmonies associated with those. I'm not sure whether or not there's a strong case for inclusion, although bands like The Pipettes are certainly giving it a run for it's money. I'd say leave it out. Arturus 09:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

pop punk

Someone added pop-punk to list of subgenres, which I quite disagree with. I've removed it. Arturus 19:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Brian Wilson

Former Beach Boy Brian Wilson seems out-of-place on this list so I've removed him. If I am missing something, then by all means add him back on. I just can't see how he is an indie artist. --buck 04:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Elephant Six

Should this really be under current record labels? It isn't a record label, it's a collective of musicians. The actual label connected to it quit in 2002. --bezoomny

The Flaming Lips

I really do not agree that The Flaming Lips are "[moving] increasingly to an indie pop approach in recent years". This really is not true and it doesn't take a genius to figure this out. Does anyone else agree? And I would also disagree that Yo La Tengo is doing the same. Basically I have issues with the last sentence. --JustinFRANCIS

List of bands

I'm cutting down on the endless list of bands. Without some discrimination, the list could really go on and on. I tried to make it a little more definitive. It's not that I disagree with the bands that were on the list were indie pop. I think that the endless list of indie pop bands is better served as a category or a list article of its own. If you disagree with some of this and think a band should be returned, or subtracted, have at it. I got rid of these bands: Aberdeen, Acid House Kings, Airport Girl, The Aislers Set, All Girl Summer Fun Band, Allen Clapp, Always, Another Sunny Day, Architecture in Helsinki, Atralen, Aude, Aztec Camera, Ballboy, Big Yellow, BMX Bandits, The Bats, Biff Bang Pow!, The Boat People, The Boy Least Likely To, La Buena Vida, Bunnygrunt, Capsela, The Chills, The Clean, The Clientele, Close Lobsters, Club 8, Craving, Crayon, Cub, Dressy Bessy, East River Pipe, The Essex Green, The Fairways, Farrah, Fat Tulips, The Field Mice, The Flower Machine, From Bubblegum to Sky, The Gentle Waves, Great Lakes, Heavenly, Hidden Cameras, Holiday, Holiday Flyer, The Incredible Moses Leroy, Kissing Book, Language of Flowers, Leilanautik, Jens Lekman, Sondre Lerche, The Lovely Feathers, The Lucksmiths, Luzer, Magic Crayon, Marine Research, Mean Red Spiders, The Melons, The Most Serene Republic, Nacho Vegas, Pony Up!, The Orchids, Los Planetas, Papas Fritas, PAS/CAL, Pernice Brothers, Pipas, Pooh Sticks, Poundsign, The Raconteurs (because I don't see them as indie pop persay), Razorcuts, Rose Melberg, Russian Futurists, Saturday Looks Good To Me, The Scotland Yard Gospel Choir, Shop Assistants, Shout Out Louds, Sleepy Township, Small Town Parade, The Softies, Starflyer 59, Stars, St. Christopher, Talulah Gosh, Television Personalities, Tender Trap, Trembling Blue Stars, Voxtrot, The Whitest Boy Alive

How did you decide which bands should be removed and which should stay? I cant say I see much method to your madness. Dunne409 03:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I used my own judgment, that's all. The artists I left on the page are, in my eyes, definitive bands of indie pop. I didn't research every band to determine if it somehow belonged to the list. I don't think a list of indie pop bands really belongs in the article, but a number of examples does belong. Maybe I left too many bands. Really, 10-15 bands would be optimal in my opinion.

How did I decide which bands should stay? One, I've heard of them all, and two, they personify indie pop really well without being too much of a different genre. That's not to say I took out a band just because I hadn't heard of them (because with many, I have). Maybe I'm wrong in taking out or keeping some of the artists. But I don't think I'm wrong in slimming the examples of indie pop down. I think an entire list of indie pop bands isn't appropriate in this particular article. Revise it as you see fit. I just wung it. --EndlessVince 05:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Whilst I agree that a list of bands, if we need one at all, would be better as a separate article, your choice of which ones to cut out seems bizarre. Razorcuts, Talulah Gosh, and The Field Mice are key archetypal indie pop bands, while Go! Team, Magnetic Fields and We Are Scientists, great as they all are, don't seem to fit the description at all.--Michig 08:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, sure. Then edit it. --EndlessVince 16:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Have done - restored original list to separate entry and linked to it.--Michig 18:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Modification of external links

Am a bit baffled as to why some of the external links have been deleted? Surely some of the indiepop net stations and blogs such as indie-mp3 are perfect stop-offs for people wanting to find out more about the genre?

And as for deleting bands such as Acid House Kings and The Field Mice - that's just daft! Am glad they've been restored...

Wikified

Wikified as part of the Wikification wikiproject! Added sections to "History." JubalHarshaw 15:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

External links

It seems that, on a daily basis, anonymous editors are adding external links to various indie-pop blogs. Blogs are specifically mentioned in the external links guidelines as links normally to be avoided. See #11 in that list specifically. A number of these sites have contained an objectional amount of advertising and Google AdSense. Links to these sites should also be avoided. Additionally, it appears, but cannot always be confirmed, that some editors have linked to their own personal blogs and external sites. Please see the Conflict of Interest guidlines with respect to this. The purpose of this article is not to compile a comprehensive list of indie-pop blogs and sites. Before adding any additional external links, please read the What to link guidlines and consider discussing the link here. We may be able to avoid another cycle of reverts. - Justin (Authalic) 02:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Twee/indiepop/and the like

indie pop didn't exist as a term until the late 80s as "indie" didn't really start to be used be used then as a genre. (see various sources in article and most recently Andrew Collins article in Word magazine). Indie pop then became the overarching term for this genre. its also well known in the UK as c86, after the tape. twee is more of usa term that originated in the mid 90s (and ironically) in the US. (help with some sources..cos i'm struggling to find any)... all cite broadly the same bands, influences and labels.

c86 can't be a sub genre of indie pop it existed before indie pop was used as a terminology.

anyway the article makes clear the difficulties in  pinning it down.

the actual twee article for origins has the same lineage in terms of influences, (postcard, sixties pop, "indie") as c86 as a genre and "indie pop". i'm sure they don't like it but mccarthy can exist as indiepop, twee and c86 which the article makes clear. google: mccarthy and twee - er, 141,000 results.

what do you actually mean by twee is a sub genre ?

Until everything changed in the late 80's towards 'rock', a lot of this music was just referred to as 'indie' - from the mid-eighties onwards (although the 'indie chart' had obviously been around much longer). Those bands that resisted the urge to 'rock out' were referred to as indie pop as opposed to indie rock. Remember the Pooh Sticks' track 'Indie pop ain't noise pollution' from 1988? The term was in use before then. Remember the indie chart on 'The Chart Show'? Lots of (really fairly varied) indie bands, most of which were neither cute nor particularly twee, but that were most certainly 'pop'. C86 as a term to describe a (sub-)genre only came into being in the late 80's. Anyone referring to 'C86-bands' in 1986 would (if they had heard the tape/album, which most people who use the term appear not to have) not have been using it as a synonym for 'cutie' or 'twee'. In fact I can't remember 'C86' being used to describe a genre until the late 80's. In essence, all bands that (rightly or wrongly) are labelled 'C86' or 'twee pop' could also be labelled 'indie pop', but the reverse is not true, hence C86/twee being a sub-genre. google: mccarthy and indie - er, 587,000 results. --Michig 15:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Please sign your posts, and if you must revert changes please give a reason in the edit summary. --Michig 15:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Jem 12:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (the unsigned note above was me..)

If you look at the tracklisting for 'Rough Trade Shops - Indiepop Vol.1 ', this includes The Jesus and Mary Chain, Felt, The Monochrome Set, Pop Will Eat Itself, I, Ludicrous, Josef K, This Poison!, AR Kane, and Lush - these are all indie pop, but none of these are twee pop. Hopefully this illustrates my point - 'indie pop' covers a wider range of music than 'twee pop' does.--Michig 16:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Who says they are not twee pop ? The first PWEI single would be classified as twee according to the current twee entry as would the tracks on that compilation by lush, felt, (early) josef K and the monochrome set.

look what we currently say is "twee pop" ...

"simple, sweet melodies and lyrics, often combined with jangling guitars."

"he roots of the genre can be traced back to groups of the late 1960s like The Byrds and The Lovin' Spoonful...Post-Punk artists of the late 1970s and early 1980s who mixed a do-it-yourself approach with a rejection of chest-beating rock machismo - especially Orange Juice, Television Personalities and Jonathan Richman. Twee pop bands who use 'buzzsaw' rather than jangling guitars, such as Shonen Knife and the Beatnik Termites, tend also to be influenced by Buzzcocks and The Ramones"

well thats a pretty broad definition. Jem 12:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I just think for twee to have its own entry it should be much clearer about what the differences actually are, where the genre is used ? twee.net for example is the "home of classic and current Indie Pop music and the reference-site for the 'Indiepop mailing list'. " Twee.net is the only source that the twee entry currently has and they as a group/community don't seem to make the distinction but they er, bave an entry for This Poison ;)

http://www.twee.net/bands/thispoison.html (cos they were on C86 of course).

Anyway long way to go with these articles. and i'd rather spend time doing em up. that talking about it so ...toot toot. Jem 12:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with getting rid of the twee article - it's a horrible term and not at all appropriate to a lot of the music it is used to describe. Twee Pop is not, however, the same as Indie Pop, and if you want to demonstrate otherwise, citing another page on Wikipedia is not sufficient. By the way, This Poison! were not on C86, unless my copy is a very rare one with a different tracklisting (here's hoping!). You may want to just plough on with your changes and not bother discussing this, but perhaps you should refer to Wikipedia:Consensus before reverting other people's edits simply because they don't concur with your opinions.--Michig 17:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

yep. sure. lets work together on this. sorry for any offense ! good stuff and thanks again for your work on the c86 article. thanks for the edits. i agree. merge the twee article (for now ?) and "twee" should be a section in the indie pop article. Once expanded it might then deserve its own page. the current article is pretty poor.

this poison! - my mistake well they were on the wedding present's label back in 85/86. Hey its a long time ago.

one more bit of dullness...article now says.." The more jangly indie pop bands later came to be referred to as 'C86' (after the tape itself) or Cutie or Twee due to what commentators called the "revolt into childhood" of its followers, or a term coined by John Peel: shambling bands." this is a much better way of putting it but .. bands were known as cutie/shambling bands in 1986 and then indiepop probably in 1987/8 (ie: "indiepop ain't noise pollution") but i've no firm idea when indiepop first came to be used. i think around 88 but ? the i-d quote is a good source for cutie ....but can you find any sources for use of indiepop before 1988 ? ? article probably needs a backstory about the word independent, independent charts (in 1980), and so on. Jem 09:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC) the chart show on c4 started in 1986. did the "indie" chart section start then ?

No offence taken - just wanted to avoid an edit war. I still have a pile of fanzines from around 1987/88, which may have the term 'indiepop' in them - I need to dig them out for someone so I'll see if I can find anything there. It'll be interesting to see if there were any references to 'C86' in there also. Incidentally, fanzines, flexis and cassette compilations played a big part in the 'scene' (and there certainly was a scene around 1988/89, if it was a little more disparate in 86) and this is hardly mentioned in the article - I could get some pictures of fanzines/tapes to add to the article, or would that be stretching it a bit?. The Smiths were also a key factor in guitar pop coming back into fashion, so should also be mentioned. Also, the 'International' section talks about The Chills (among others) as having 'insistent jangle-guitar strums and sweet, high male choirboy voices' - hmm, not sure I've got the Chills records with choirboy voices on. The GoBetweens should probably also get a mention as an influence, as should a few other guitar bands from the early 80's. I'll try to add more over the next week or so.--Michig 18:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes it takes a while for genres to be named and described. Heavy metal started around 1968 or 1969, but it wasn't named until 1972. Alternative rock certainly existed during the 1980s, but no one really called it that until 1990/1991. I'm certain that Michig's point is correct, that "indie pop" was used back then. I think I've seen an example or two. But from what I gather from my general understaning, twee pop and C86 are particular types of indie pop (which in turn is a subgenre of alternative rock). Allmusic.com spells out the differences more clearly. Another thing to consider is pretty much until recently C86 was largely forgotten. At least here in the States, you're going to hear A LOT more people mention twee pop than C86. Even now, only one or two people know what the hell I'm talking about when I say "C86". WesleyDodds 23:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

this site cites 16! sub genres of indiepop http://www.nerdmagazine.org/indiepop/popintro.html including britpop (?) and aggro pop(anything a bit angry it appears) as well as c86 and tweepop Jem 06:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Definitely merge. Slugicide 21:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I think indiepop and twee should remain seperate articles, for reasons pretty much already covered here. Furthermore, I don't see how it matters whether indiepop as a label came before or after twee, the important fact is that indiepop is a label in usage now, and in such a way that twee is a subgenre of it. The terms are not the same in modern usage, and dragging up the historical development of the terms is really irrelevant to whether they get to be different articles now. Arturus 22:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Isn't "twee" being used here in a much broader sense than what most music-lovers understand it as? Twee seems to me a very distinct (though not very well-defined), relatively small subset of indie pop. Llajwa 16:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "the twee article - it's a horrible term and not at all appropriate to a lot of the music it is used to describe. Twee Pop is not, however, the same as Indie Pop" from above, QFE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.250.21 (talk) 02:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Misusing of a genre happens no matter what the genre is. Also it doesn't matter that you think "twee" is a horrible word. I could hate the word "blog" but that doesn't mean an article shouldn't exist about it. A name is just what people have agreed to call something. Twee is a common term to describe a specific kind of music (more specific than indie-pop), and I think it's an outrage the article was deleted. KenFehling (talk) 15:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
      • unfortunately there's a genre here (and nailing em down is like pinning jelly to the wall) which has been called indiepop, twee, tweepop, cutie, C86 anorak, even shambling over the last 25 years. Some of the terms are used ironically, and/or derogatory . But the terms come and go and some are more prevalent in the UK or in the US/elsewhere but there's a fair amount of books, a BBC radio documentary, numerous articles (all cited) that back this up. They all argue that there *is* a genre that goes from velvets > postcard > c86 > sarah records > bus stop > K records > riot grrl > the pastels > belle and sebastian > pudding bowl haircuts > hair slides > DIY fanzines/gigs > "punk" attitudes > right up to the pains of being pure at heart and so on. > Jem (talk) 08:55, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Current content?

This article makes almost no mention of any artists or music from after about 1990. Since the "indie pop" label is frequently used to describe current artists, bands, etc., isn't that a little ridiculous? It seems like visitors wanting to learn about this genre would be more likely to be interested because of current groups than groups from 1987, and it looks, from the comments, like the article used to contain references to contemporary groups. Why the change, and the focus on so much older stuff? ABPend 22:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I've just noticed that most of the bands mentioned in this article are from england. what about all the influential indie pop bands from the U.S. and Canada?142.161.38.125 22:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

true ish..a lot of the bands come from the UK but the article doesn't ignore the USA with references to jonathan richman, the ramones, nirvana, riot grrl, velvet underground, k records, beat happening, tullycraft, tigertrap, a few labels, calvin johnson et al.. Its not a list. the "history" bit could do with a bit more but only if they add to the narrative or make a point. its a bit listy in places already imho Jem 14:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

as for after 1990 then the article did have more references to contemporary groups but only in a list like " this is a list of indie pop" bands Jem 14:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Twee pop needs it's own article again. Wikipedia is pretty much how I dicovered my now favorite kind of music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.4.51.71 (talk) 14:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

"Jangly"

There should be an article for "jangly"! People use it as a term of art in talking about pop music. Llajwa 16:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you making a reference to jangle pop? Thundermaster^{Thundermaster's Talk} 11:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Alex Chilton

mention alex chilton, big star, etc. also 70s power pop like pilot, sweet, argent, etc.

Twee Metal

Swell Maps shouldn't be on the indie pop page, they're Twee Metal

^that is sickening —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.71.237.131 (talk) 16:50, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Cuddlecore

"Cuddlecore" redirects here, but is not explained in the article. -- Beland (talk) 07:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

NOT

Um. Is that all-caps NOT in the lede really necessary? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thmazing (talk • contribs) 05:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

"commonly known as..."

"In the United States indie pop is also commonly known as twee or twee pop" What? Is this for real? I've been heavily involved in music scenes and history in the US for at least 10 years and I have never heard this word uttered. I find it very hard to believe it is in "common usage" in the States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.114.168.65 (talk) 16:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

citations

what bits need more citations ? Jem (talk) 19:57, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

alternative music project

how is this article "part of the alternative music project" when i think it was looked at and rated about 18 months ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jemstone66 (talk • contribs) 14:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

It's in the project scope. There's been no reason for the rating to change. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

yes i understand that it *could* be part of the scope. What popular music with guitars in the last 40 years isn't ? but the ratings are arbitrary , haven't been updated (even though the page is vastly improved in the last 2 years), and has (afaik) never been discussed as part of the project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jemstone66 (talk • contribs) 00:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

It's definitely an alternative rock subgenre, for one, and a major one, at that. Also, there's over a thousand articles in the scope of the project; while we haven't done much work on this particular page yet, that doesn't mean we won't in the future, especially given we've done a bit of work on indie pop band articles. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I can see why it would fit although i've always thought that "alternative music" is way too broad a genre and you know i've said that before. But what i don't seem to understand is why by having the template it looks like the page is endorsed, rated and prioritised by a project that hasn't had a look at it in a very long time if at all. Otherwise its just like spam. Hey come over here and join us to do this. which is fine but can we ditch the ratings please because they no longer make sense. Jem (talk) 09:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC) or better why don't you just say on the template "this is B class, and "high priority" when rated in Nov 2006 by "name of person who rated it" or somesuch so that its transparent. Jem (talk) 09:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

No project template on Wikipedia works like that. indopug (talk) 15:07, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Well maybe they should. Surely a last updated on x date by username can't be that difficult to insert in. does anyone know where i should go to suggest it ? Jem (talk) 15:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

It varies from project to project. We just don't do it with this one. This page's status hasn't changed since it was assessed; the next step would be a Good Article nomination, but it's not ready for that, and it's certainly not A-class. There's no need to update the status beyond B-class unless someone puts it up for a GA nomination or at Featured Article Candidates, or it it's greatly decreased in quality, which it hasn't. In short, the best way change the assessment is to improve the article. The point of WikiProject tags is not to give the impressions that the page "is endorsed, rated and prioritised". Rated and prioritized, yes, but only for self-reference for the project to inform WikiProject members of the article's current status if they so choose to work on it. By no means is it an endorsement of any sort. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:57, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Thats not really my point. It would be transparent to say who reviewed it and when (and link to that) and for this to be published alongside any rating, along with a clearer indication about how to go about changing it. When was it assessed and by who and how do you go about finding that out ? thats all. surely that would be useful and a bit more transparent. It probably isn't A, B, FA or whatever . I don't know but i am interested in wondering who decides it is and how you would challenge that. Who decides its been "improved ?". Is it a vote ? Jem (talk) 14:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

You're asking braod questions that have little to do with this page directly. We could continue the discussion on your talk page, but right now there's no valid reason to remove the tag, so continuing this line of discussion here is fruitless. WesleyDodds (talk) 23:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Roots

"with its roots in the Scottish post-punk bands on the Postcard Records label"

This is just nonsense isn't it? Rough Trade was putting out records two years prior to this label. Stutley (talk) 21:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Boy Bands?

Which boy bands have been influenced by indie pop? Please provide sources or this unverified claim will be deleted. - Andy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.247.244.163 (talk) 22:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I've given it a week. I'm deleting it. - Andy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.247.244.163 (talk) 07:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)