Talk:Insurgency in the Maghreb (2002–present)

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Acronym[edit]

I suppose that for those familiar with the acronyms used this article makes sense as is, but for the rest of us defining the acronym the first time used would make this article intelligible. Mapjc 16:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Islamic insurgency[edit]

Why is it called Islamic insurgency and not just insurgency? Everyone is muslim in thathis area. You don't have something called "christian insurgency" either right? - PietervHuis (talk) 22:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lives lost[edit]

The # killed figure proffered at http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11945 (6,000) and added to the infobox is for the entire Algerian insurgency since the 80s, not the GSPC/AQIM attacks since 2002, and so is inaccurate. T L Miles (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not according to the source: Conflict waged against the government by the Islamist militia group the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat, which has allied itself with the Al Qaeda Organisation in the Islamic Maghreb. Insurgency is marked by terrorist attacks such as suicide bombings. Death toll 6,000 on both sides. IT does not mention 1980s, it says 2002-onwards. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:33, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Possible copyright problem[edit]

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Nick-D (talk) 23:43, 22 January 2011 (UTC) Nick-D (talk) 23:43, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Deeply Flawed Article: As an actual Specialist in the Maghreb, most bemused[edit]

This article takes some real issues, the Algerian Islamist insurgency and the new AQMI banditry in southern Algeria, Mali, Mauritania and vastly exaggerates the scope. There is no real 'insurgency' in either Tunisia nor Morocco. This article needs massive revision. --collounsbury (talk) 12:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC) As a further added comment, this article advances statements that have no basis in reality, such as "Even in major tourist countries like Morocco or Tunisia there is ongoing violence from the insurgency in all parts of the countries." This is quite simply untrue and utterly unsupported. Taking for example the Marrakech incident, there is no factual basis for connecting that to AQIM, and it is absolutely not the case that in either Tunisia or Morocco that there is any "insurgency" at all, let alone "in all parts of the countries." --collounsbury (talk) 12:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Some further notes, it appears that an unregistered user (with this edit serieshttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Insurgency_in_the_Maghreb_%282002%E2%80%93present%29&direction=next&oldid=436720632) added some of the least supported material, such as the quote supra). I also question the factualness of the map, which suggests a coherent "insurgency" over a vast geographic space, a view that is to say the least, marginal and largely confined to certain American "war on terror" thinker circles. --collounsbury (talk) 15:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By all means, if you see problems that need correcting, and you have reliable sources that verify what you're saying, please go ahead and make the appropriate changes. -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:18, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that is part of the problem, this page is full of utterly unsupported assertions. The individual incidents are real enough, the story woven is utterly unrecognizable to myself. Proving a negative is evidently impossible, it is up to the person advancing this mythology to demonstrate it exists. This is of the worst things about wikipedia, this sort of nonsense. --collounsbury (talk) 18:40, 6 February 2012 (UTC).[reply]
First, the actual subject / title strikes me as incorrect. There is not an "insurgency" in the Maghreb. I am not aware of any serious support for that. There is clearly an ongoing insurgency in Algeria, and an emerging problem in the Sahel - not the Maghreb, the Sahel, as well as the Sahara. As such, I do not see any support for the overall story this article is weaving. In looking at the history, this began, correctly as an article focused on Algeria. I would remove the absurd assertions of an insurgency touching on (a) Morocco, (b) the Spanish territories, (c) Tunisia. There is absolutely no factual support in that article to support advancing the idea that there is an insurgency touching any of these territories. --collounsbury (talk) 19:27, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't know that there's any person specifically advancing a certain narrative. Wikipedia is a collaborative, dynamic, user-generated encyclopedia. I've definitely seen stories discussing an insurgency in the Maghreb, but I agree there doesn't seem to be a lot of basis for claiming it affects, say, Ceuta and Melilla. There have been suicide attacks in Morocco and I believe in Tunis as well; I think AQIM has claimed responsibility for those. But if you feel this article needs a rewrite and that you're qualified, I would strongly encourage you to make the changes you want to see. If that means a major reconstruction, so be it. I certainly have no objections. -Kudzu1 (talk) 19:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware of how Wiki works, I have edited articles on the Maghreb here since 2006, when I have time, which is not greatly. There has never been a suicide bombing in Tunisia, and the Moroccan attacks have no established connexion with an "insurgency" - my job is investing in this region, I bloody well follow such things. AQIM never claimed responsbility for the Moroccan attacks as they occured before it existed, while the Marrakech attack was by two cretins who got their bomb making knowledge from internet fora. When I have time, I will edit to match reality (and as well what one can find on the actual country pages here where one can see rather readily that only Algeria matches the claims made on this bizarre page). --collounsbury (talk) 20:54, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Things have changed a great deal since this conversation. Jim Michael (talk) 10:17, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rename Article, Refocus[edit]

As I am proposing to fundamentally change this article, as I believe its titling and thesis (that there is something rising to the level of an 'insurgency' in the Maghreb beyond Algeria and that the primary focus is on the Maghreb) is completely unsupported, I believe it appropriate to raise this first in Talk.

First, title and focus:

  1. Numbered list item: There is not an insurgency in any ordinary meaning of the term in the Maghreb. There is an Islamic terror group insurgency in Algeria, spilling over into the Sahel. This is the AQIM movement coming out of the Groupe Salafiste
  2. Numbered list item: The article advances by implication connexions between various events that are not supported (e.g. Chad, isolated events in Morocco, Tunisia - including some which pre-date the emergence of AQIM and the pretension to regionalisation.
  3. Numbered list item: The title ignores what the facts and analysis indicate, the real focus of action is in the Sahel, not the Maghreb proper (ex Algeria).

I would thus propose to rename the article as Islamic Terror Movements in the Maghreb and the Sahel. alternatively it could be entitled Islamic Terror in the Maghreb and the Sahel. Or some variation on the above. I see no substantive support for using the term Insurgency outside of the Algerian context. I draw attention that if one looks at the multiple wiki pages for the Maghreb countries, one finds absolutely no support outside of the Algerian page for advancing the idea of an Insurgency. Internal to wikipedia, thus one can get a picture of a more supportable article.

I would also propose removing the map, as it has no discernable support, having been made by a wiki user and does not appear to be based on any substantive authority. Regarding support for this approach and analysis, I draw attention to these substantive analyses:

It is worth quoting the abstract. This Policy Brief examines the real and imagined influence of al-Qa‘ida in North Africa and the Sahel. Despite a perception of the transnationalization of terrorist movements in North Africa under al-Qa‘ida’s banner, robust evidence of an effective al-Qa‘ida’s expansion in the Maghreb and the Sahara/Sahel region remains elusive at best. Rather, doubts about al-Qa‘ida’s actual threat and the efficacy of international response in the context of pervasive state failure in the Sahel raise questions regarding the policy objectives of US-led counter-terrorism in the region.

I submit that the current article contains no analytical support for its thesis of an insurgency in the Maghreb, and from these three recent and respected analyses (collapsing the 3 Potomac analyses into one) from 2009-2012, it is clear that the actual nexus is the Algerian Sahara, plus the Sahel. Wikipedia has shamefully had this article up for several years, advancing a proposition that has no support in reality. The article must be utterly reworked. collounsbury (talk) 11:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This article hasn't been updated since November 2011, meanwhile Northern Mali conflict (2012–present) seems to have picked up where it left off. Sort of a confusing jumble of articles: List of modern conflicts in North Africa, plus all the terrorist group articles and country history articles. And, this "article" is really just an index of external links fashionably presented as citations with short summaries. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 09:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rename or Breakup[edit]

This article continues to be a dubious and incoherent, as User:Green Cardamom notes in Jan 2013, "this 'article' is really just an index of external links fashionably presented as citations with short summaries." collounsbury (talk) 08:41, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 April 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Although there seems to be general agreement that the current title is unsatisfactory, no agreement was reached on what it should be. Number 57 11:35, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Insurgency in the Maghreb (2002–present) → List of Conflicts and Terrorist Incidents in the Sahara and Sahel – the current article is nothing more than a hodgepodge list of terrorist incidents largely around Algeria, Mali and the Sahel - with the dubious implicit assertion of some wider connection. The Name "in the Maghreb" is now entirely fallacious as the list cum article covers the Sahel (not part of the Maghreb) as in fact reflected in the map. There is no proper substantiation of the analytical framework (i.e. that this laundry list of unconnected incidents is seen by any proper analytical source as an insurgency or insurgencies "in the Magheb" or any reason to connect incidents in Chad with isolated incidents in Morocco or Tunisia.... It has remained problematic now for over 5 years. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 19:11, 7 May 2015 (UTC) collounsbury (talk) 08:41, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative proposal: move to Insurgency in the Maghreb and West Africa - the sahara and the sahel are much wider regions which includes Egypt and Sudan, which while they have their own issues with terrorism are not commonly considered connected to the insurgency discussed in this article. This move would be more geographically accurate and would allow a mention of the Islamist insurgency in Nigeria which is connected, and would not be included in the original proposal. Ebonelm (talk) 12:30, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The geographic indicators (Maghreb and West Africa)are moderately better, true. However the use of the singular, insurgency, continues to imply a connected and unitary phenomena that as my 2012 citations (see above this entry) amply illustrate, is not see as valid by actually informed analysts. There is most certainly an Algerian connected insurgency operating between the Algerian mountains, the Algerian Sahara and into the neighbouring Sahelian states (Mali principally, Niger). But this page is simply (as rightly put by another observer) a mere laundry list of unconnected incidents with no real analytical coherence. (collounsbury (talk) 13:54, 30 April 2015 (UTC))[reply]
It is worth noting that this page, if one goes back to creation started out as Islamic Insurgency in Algeria (created in 2007 by a now permanently blocked user: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Insurgency_in_the_Maghreb_%282002%E2%80%93present%29&oldid=156463365), a heritage that shows clearly in the minimal discussion text preceding the ad hoc articles list as it essentially focuses on the Algerian Salafist group. collounsbury (talk) 14:45, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I don't see why we should expand the time period covered in this article to the entire history of the region. Restrict it to either the post-Cold War period, or the current scope of post Millennium period -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 00:20, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Errr what?? The question is NOT about time period at all. Expansion or not of time is not the issue.--collounsbury (talk) 09:50, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ah sorry now I understand - this re removing the reference to 2002-Present. I am entirely in favour of keeping that time frame reference, I was focusing on the rather more profound issue of the overall coherence of the article as such. So Amend suggestion: Insurgencies in the Maghreb and West Africa (2002-Present)Italic text OR Insurgencies in the Maghreb and the Sahel (2002-Present). collounsbury (talk) 10:32, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I support some move from the current title to something with "Insurgencies" per User:Collounsbury's comments above. The current title is highly misleading and probably WP:OR. —  AjaxSmack  00:32, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed this is essentially WP:OR and it further has been flagged as problematic for a long period of time. Insurgencies in the Maghreb and the Sahel perhaps. Or in the Maghreb and West Africa. Although the problem remains that the laundry list of 'incidents' are in no way clearly linked together an insurgency or another. The root article on Algeria and the Algeria-Sahara-Sahel/Mali insurgency however was reasonably coherent (allowing that my cites in 2012 already show experts questioning the analysis overall).collounsbury (talk) 10:28, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Reopening Rename / Move[edit]

Requested move 2 February 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is still no clear consensus to this after multiple relists.(closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane talk 22:11, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Insurgency in the Maghreb (2002–present) → List of Insurgency Related Incidents in North and West Africa – This article continues to be grossly missnamed - using the Singular (Insurgency) to refer to a pot pourri of not particularly related incidents, and since approximately 2011 is more focused on the Sahel than on the Maghreb. This article is incoherent and also largely duplicates more accurate, focused articles (for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Mali_conflict) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_Civil_War and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Crisis_(2011%E2%80%93present) collounsbury (talk) 11:23, 2 February 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. SkyWarrior 03:06, 10 February 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. -- Dane talk 20:46, 20 February 2017 (UTC) The last discussion ended up being inconclusive, but now two years on I believe the evidence is clear that this long list of individual incidents covering West Africa and the Maghreb has no real coherence nor focus. collounsbury (talk) 11:23, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • The use of "insurgency" in the singular in the current title is incorrect but removing the date and adding West Africa broadens the scope of the article/list too much. Renaming to "List of" is warranted but maybe a split is the best solution. —  AjaxSmack  04:26, 11 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The singular form could be explained by the type of insurgency being solely Islamist, caused mainly by a group of interconnected trans-national groups (with the main group being AQIM which spans several countries). I would suggest adding Sahel to the title though, so that the title properly covers this article's subject which spans the Maghreb and the Sahel and keeping the present format. (Thus opposing the proposed move above.) User2534 (talk) 11:07, 11 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom and for consistency with other lists. Laurdecl talk 06:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per the nomination and the sake of consistency. Makes sense in this case. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:19, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The proposed title doesn't seem to describe what the article is about at all. This article concerns conflicts which followed on from the Algerian Civil War, and related incidents that spilled over into various other countries. The proposed title, in addition to being horribly verbose and vague (what is an "insurgency related incident" anyway, and how does it differ from an insurgency?), covers vastly more than what is in this article, with north and west Africa as the large georegions described, and no time frame or context.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:23, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Material copied to another Wikipedia page[edit]

Material from this article has been copied to Wikipedia page 2010s political history.Michael E Nolan (talk) 19:38, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Burkina Faso in the Maghreb?[edit]

I do not think that Burkina-Faso can fall under the definition. Do we have sources specifically linking Burkina Faso events to this topic?GreyShark (dibra) 05:39, 7 October 2020 (UTC) I don't think so as well. Cf. War in Sahel discussion. Bokoharamwatch (talk) 08:47, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Split[edit]

This article started out as "Islamic insurgency in Algeria", then the scope was changed to "Insurgency in the Maghreb". But over time were including information about countries with no relation to the Maghreb (Mali, Niger, Nigeria, Burkina Faso ...)

The map on the side shows which countries make up the Maghreb, which proves that the scope of this article is wrong.

I propose to split the article in two:

1. "Insurgency in the Maghreb": an article for the conflicts that are taking place in this region (Algeria, Libya and Tunisia);

2. Islamist insurgency in the Sahel: an article about the broadening of conflict in the Maghreb to the Sahel region (particularly: Mali, Niger, Mauritania, Burkina Faso, Chad and Nigeria). See Guerre du Sahel on the French Wikipedia. --Fontaine347 (talk) 11:14, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: The insurgency has clearly spread over to countries outside the maghreb region and is more violent in the sahel region than in algeria and libya. Could we use a different name than “War” though? War makes it seem like an all out conflict in the region. I think Insurgency in the Sahel is better. Ridax2020 (talk) 12:11, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Corrected it, changing the proposal to "Islamist insurgency in the Sahel" as used by BBC News. I suggested "Sahel War" because the French Wikipedia uses that name. --Fontaine347 (talk) 13:14, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • agree: I agree we should change it as the Insurgency in the Maghreb(north Africa) is barely a happening anymore, the conflict is now mostly centered on the Mali-Burkina Faso-Niger boarder instead of Algeria like it used to be.--Garmin21 (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Are the insurgencies above & below the Sahara separate enough to warrant separate articles? If so, Sahel insurgency would be a good title for the new article to split the relevant parts of this article to. However, even with Sahel as the scope, it still doesn't cover the southernmost reaches of this insurgency, including the Grand-Bassam shootings, which took place on the south coast of Ivory Coast, which is a long distance south of the Sahel as well as the Maghreb. Also, should Islamist be in the title of the new article? Jim Michael (talk) 14:30, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yea lots of the violence is a mix of ethnic and religious so its not completely an Islamist insurgency. Though 99% of the insurgency is in the Sahel and the Sahara. Most of the attacks on the coast are small cells that get raided after the attack, so no insurgency has developed in the south similar to cross boarder attack in Tanzania in the insurgency in Cabo Delgado.--Garmin21 (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This attack in Ivory Coast appears to have been an isolated incident. Are there other reports of jihadist attacks in the country? The insurgency occurs mainly in the Sahel (Mali-Niger-Burkina Faso) and in the Chad Basin. With the exception of Libya, there is currently almost no insurgent activity in the Maghreb.
The proposed title "Islamist insurgency in the Sahel" is used in English and French sources. But I am not opposed to the simplified title "Insurgency in the Sahel". --Fontaine347 (talk) 15:10, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
attacks still happen around the mountains in northern Alegria about once a month.--Garmin21 (talk) 14:17, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Renaming it to "Insurgency in North Africa" will not solve the problem, as Burkina Faso, Niger, etc. is not part of North Africa. The best solution is to split the article.--Fontaine347 (talk) 23:37, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I think we should do clear-up-process first. As you can see, I think this article has mixed contents. Like fr:Guerre du Sahel, I think we should move this article to War of Sahel, and we should delete the conflicts in Tunis, and Libya because it is not an insurgency of Maghreb and Sahel. Also we should clean up all the belligerents which is labelled as Limited involvement. -- Wendylove (talk) 10:04, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: A more grammatically correct title would be "Sahel War" or "War in the Sahel" as this is the literal translation of the French word. The article about the conflict in Tunisia should be kept as it is noteworthy and related to the subject. With all due respects,
    Dunutubble (talk) 21:59, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree: This discussion has been dead for a couple of months and has had no real conclusion so I thought it acceptable to bump it. Anyway, the Maghreb may still have insurgents ravaging but it's a decreasing trend as the violence has mostly moved further south to non-Maghreb areas. For a while, I actually thought there should be an article called Insurgency in Burkina Faso but I now realise that would be leaving out other countries where the insurgency is taking place like Mali (although we have Mali War) and Niger. Insurgency in the Sahel is a title I can see working. Some may say the attacks in Cote d'Ivoire may indicate that this is too exclusive but there were also attacks in Tanzania last year relating to the insurgency in Cabo Delgado and some could even say the attacks in France may be related to the intervention against ISIS. Terrorism, even by the groups in question, is not isolated to one particular region but it's only in that region where there's an actual war going on so I don't see problems with splitting the article into "Insurgency in the Sahel". The Ninja5 Empire (Talk) 00:01, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some excellent points made. For example could we create a spillover or overflow article, or maybe the War in the Sahel article, as well as embracing Post Libyan civil war fighting. Still Abidjan is a long way away from the Sahel, as rightly said by others. Bokoharamwatch (talk) 08:57, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: This discussion has died in January with no resolution. It appears that everyone who took part in this discussion is in agreement that the article should be split but there is no guarantee as to what the article should be called.
@Fontaine347, Garmin21, Ridax2020, Jim Michael, 웬디러비, and Bokoharamwatch: Is there anything else you guys would like to add? The Ninja5 Empire (Talk) 22:38, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree: I recently created an article for its spillover in Burkina Faso (Jihadist insurgency in Burkina Faso). I created that article to contextualize pages on the recent history of Burkina Faso and I think that this could contextualize things more. I would recommend naming the proposed article as Sahel War or War in the Sahel. Dunutubble (talk) 21:54, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I support any of the suggested titles: "Islamist insurgency in the Sahel", or "Insurgency in the Sahel", or "War of Sahel".--Fontaine347 (talk) 21:25, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agree but even Insurgency in Sahel is too broad, there are AQIM insurgency in Mali, Niger and Burkina Faso, Boko Haram in Nigeria and the Chad Lake region Islamists in CAR, Libya and Cote d'Ivoire... and ISIS too. More should be written to said article, topics need to expand the scope on the interlocking nature of these conflicts, if there is any and to include current situations in each country. Sgnpkd (talk) 19:27, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The CAR civil war has overall very little to do with ISWAP, ISGS, and JNIM in fact it has more to do with the wars in DRC than the northwest conflicts. While ISWAP and ISGS are relatively connected but still limited so, though with the Islamists expanding to Katsina they are getting uncomfortably close to each other. The insurgency we are mostly talking about is the tri-area between Niger, Burkina Faso, and Mali and limited insurgent activities in other countries from Islamist cells moving to different locations. As far as I know, Libya plays a support role for the Islamists groups.--Garmin21 (talk) 20:20, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Addid Burkina-Faso as a belligerent?[edit]

I understand that the country is not part of the Maghreb region, but as far as I understand this conflict now spans across both the Maghreb and the Sahel regions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gorgedweller (talk • contribs) 08:35, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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