Talk:Irish Volunteers (18th century)

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Proto-nationalists[edit]

The article reads as if these militias were proto-nationalists. In fact (for the pre-Catholic Emancipation times), they were highly non-sectarian, in opposition to those threats to peace and order who would turn into groups such as the Peep O'Day Boys and the Defenders. Their supporters would turn up both in the Society of United Irishmen and in the Orange Order, and take differing views on the Act of Union 1800. --Henrygb 17:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That article points that out clearly in its final paragraph. In addition, it's important to understand that in the late 18th century, 'nationalist' did not equal 'catholic'. The first Irish nationlists were protestants. There is also nothing in the idea of Irish nationalism per se, ie that Ireland should be self governing that is sectarian. The volunteers could have been 'proto-nationalists' and 'highly non-sectarian'. The rival sectarian interpretations of nationalism in Ireland developed in the 19th century. Jdorney 12:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, much of pre-1900 nationalism was purely republican in nature and non-sectarian.--Vintagekits 12:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My point was the "Irish" here was purely geographical and I don't think the overall article gives that feel. These militias were mainly about preserving law and order both against political and religious agitators and against criminal gangs. As for "free trade with Great Britain", this was one of the causes of the Act of Union, a distinctly unrepublican measure. --Henrygb 16:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
By modern standards perhaps, but free trade was an automatic demand of late 18th century republicanism as understood by the likes of Wolfe Tone, in France and America as well as in Ireland. It is pointless to try to ascribe modern politics to a movement that was entirely of another age. Also, I'm not aware that the volunteers were used in a policing role against the likes of the defenders and peep of day boys. To my knowledge their original purpose was to defend Ireland from external invasion while British troops were tied up in America. Jdorney 21:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can't speak for the whole of Ireland, but in Moneymore it looked like a grass-roots movement by tenant farmers (Protestant and Catholic) which then sought leadership from local gentry (in that case Scots-Irish Church of Ireland ascendancy), with the aim of protecting their farms. And the early history of the USA is not that of free trade: see for example Report on Manufactures and Hamilton tariff. --Henrygb 22:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point, but Free Trade was certainly part of the republican package understood by the United Irishmen. I can't speak knowledgeably about the grass roots history of the volunteers, but you version sounds plausible from what I have heard. However, it is also important to understand that the volunteers were also a liberal political movement, that was committed to Catholic emancipation, more power for the Irish parliament and an extension of the franchise.

Jdorney 18:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not to make it an off topic discussion but early history of USA was both of free trade and regulations. Federalists was for regulations. Democratic-republican party wasn't. 81.235.155.135 (talk) 16:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Withdrawn. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:05, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Irish Volunteers (18th century) → Volunteers — Whilst also called the "Irish Volunteers" in various sources, they are also commonly known as "Volunteers" or "The Volunteers", seeing as "Volunteers" is their actual proper name (as far as i'm aware). No surprise really as they had no need for disambiguation being based in Ireland and intended to be used solely in Ireland for its defense from foreign invasion.

The following sources use these section headings (and the term (The) Volunteers alone): "Volunteers (18th century)" [1] "Volunteers"[2]. In its indexing [3] has them under: "Volunteers (eighteenth century)", and in every instance in the book they are called that and not "Irish Volunteers".

The Public Records Office of Northern Ireland, dealing primarily with state records, also has them listed as "Volunteers" and "The Volunteers" when discussing them and their records [1].

I'm not denying that they aren't also called the "Irish Volunteers", and the term is fitting in books and encyclopedias that deal with general European/world history or articles where they require mention and disambiguation would be beneficial, however shouldn't we go by their actual official name (if Irish Volunteers isn't also an official name) seeing as Volunteers is simply a redirect, and The Volunteers is only a disambiguation page for three music related articles, and the fact that on Wikipedia there is no article on another body of men or organisations called "Volunteers" or "The Volunteers" to confuse "Volunteers" or "The Volunteers" with, with that article title.

As the 20th century Irish Volunteers already have the namespace "Irish Volunteers" without disambiguation added to it, this proposal would remove the need for this article to need a bracketed disambiguation after it, and also prevent the need for it to be pipe-linked in other articles.

Sources

  1. ^ Mac Annaidh, Seamus: Irish History, page 196. Starfire, 2001. ISBN 1-903817-23-4
  2. ^ Connolly, S. J.: Oxford Companion to Irish History, page 611. Oxford University Press, 2007. ISBN 978-0-19-923483-7
  3. ^ Bardon, Jonathan: A History of Ulster. The Black Stass Press, 2005. ISBN 0-85640-794-X Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: checksum

Mabuska (talk) 22:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Discussion[edit]

Any additional comments:
  • A bit of advice as a neutral observer: I have yet to see a pervasive argument that Irish Volunteers (18th century) should be the primary topic of Volunteers (and yes, the primary topic guidelines also apply to redirects). Just because there is no other organization with that name does not necessarily mean that a significant majority of people entering "Volunteers" (whether deliberately of inadvertently) in the search box are specifically looking for that topic instead of possibly Volunteering or any of the others listed on Volunteer (disambiguation). You'll most likely need to answer this question in order to persuade more people on your side. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (talk) 02:52, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "Volunteers" -Ireland -Irish = 1,880,000 results wheras Volunteers +Irish -clinical -patients etc. = 9,940 hits i.e. 210-to-1 against this use. Sorry In ictu oculi (talk) 08:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per previous above. Even a cursory glance at the number of books on the subject which reference the subject of the “Irish Volunteers” be it in relation to Henry Grattan, Henry Flood, The Patriot Parliament, Grattan’s Parliament not to mention being referenced in works on the American and French revolutions. The title is clear and succinct and is covered in the disambiguation. --Domer48'fenian' 08:49, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Volunteers (film) is the No. 1 topic for the term "Volunteers". Kauffner (talk) 09:49, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Points by Zzyzx11 and Kauffner taken on board. Only a suggestion to remove the need for disambiguation. Mabuska (talk) 09:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per primary topic and precision. Even the later Irish Volunteers uses "Volunteers" so there's a need for differentiation/precision. Jojalozzo 02:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for the reasons listed above - there are so many meanings for "volunteer" that the name needs to be precise. Hohenloh + 12:57, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - I guess we can close this then? I would of also suggested Volunteers (18th century), however seeing as i wanted to remove the disambiguation and need for piping, it'd have been a contradictory proposal. Mabuska (talk) 16:25, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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