Talk:Isa Kremer

A fact from Isa Kremer appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 13 October 2010 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that a deadly anti-Semitic riot involving approximately 10,000 people erupted in Warsaw in 1922 in response to a planned concert of Yiddish song by soprano Isa Kremer?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2010/October.

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WP:Original Research

Some of the recent additions made by user:Przemyśl appear to be original synthesis. The lack of reporting of one event in a few historical accounts of a city hardly proves it didn't happen. That's pure supposition. Find a source that states Kremer was wrong and the event never occured and you can then put that content back in the article. To say there are no other accounts is an assertion that is as yet unprovable. Besides, we aren't presenting the riot as a historical fact in the current language; merely reporting what Kremer claimed to have experienced. 4meter4 (talk) 03:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would object, if a Polish editor includes a legend about your city, so please try to understand us, the victims of jokes and legends that we aren't happy with your "sources". Do you believe that at least 300 000 of Jewish Warsaw people didn't know about the riots and didn't describe them in hundreds of descriptions of Polish antisemitism? Xx236 (talk) 09:10, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Verifiability

A Warsaw riot of 10,000 antisemites with casualties and NOT A SINGLE independent source to confirm it? This is against our even most reasonable WP standards, per WP:REDFLAG. I rephrase my edit, so the claim of original research can no longer be made. However, the WP:RS reference point to year 1922 in Warsaw ought to stay. It is valid, informative and stable. By the way, please do not replace a {{cn}} tag with alleged mention of her story in 1923 (!) Canadian Jewish Chronicle. The tag from User:Malik Shabazz should be the least of our worries . ---Przemyśl (talk) 05:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Um... we aren't saying the riot happened. Merely that Isa reported that it did and that she claimed the experience prompted her to relocate to the United States. That is verifiable by published sources. And I actually saw the article in the Canadian Jewish Chronicle at the University of Toronto library several weeks ago. Why shouldn't we site the source that it comes from? WP:RS is satisfied because we are merely reporting what she herself claimed in an interview, and WP:REDFLAG doesn't apply here since it isn't an assertion of historical fact. Now if we actually created an article on the 1922 riot than WP:REDFLAG would apply because we'd be asserting that the riot actually occured. Further, your assertion of "only claim" is OR. No source states anywhere that this is the only claim, and given the date, it is unlikely that all relevant sources are readily available on-line. I personally believe Isa exaggerated what happened, but that a riot (probably a much much smaller one) or disturbance of some kind probably did occur. 4meter4 (talk) 06:00, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you should remove any content without discussing it here first.4meter4 (talk) 06:58, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Neither should you. All best, Przemyśl (talk) 17:30, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I like the new wording. Good job Przemyśl.4meter4 (talk) 20:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The year 1922 was very volatile in Warsaw. Found this on the German wikipedia: Nach der Wahl: [After the elections]

Die rechten Kräfte wurden durch die Wahl Narutowiczs überrascht, da die Abgeordneten der als Koalitionspartner erwünschten Polnischen Bauernpartei „Piast“ offensichtlich den Kandidaten der verfeindeten Bauernpartei „Befreiung“ unterstützt hatten. Noch am Abend des 9. Dezembers fang mit Straßenmärschen und -ausschreitungen eine Protestaktion der Rechten an. Unterstützung fand sie in einer Hetzkampagne der nationalistischen Presse, in der der auch mit den Stimmen der nationalen Minderheiten gewählte Präsident u.a. als „jüdischer Bastard“ beschimpft wurde.

It beasically says there were anti-semitic riots after the December 9th presidential elections, he was called 'Jewish Bastard' and as we know he was shot shortly thereafter. For my book about Russian Gypsy singer Plevitskaya I have studied the period extensively and often what someone says has happened because of X may reveal itself as having happened because of Y. Anti-semitic riots did happen but, with due respect, Kremer was not that important. She may have seen or heard anti-semitic slogans, and thought they were about her. Singers.... excentricity ...... One day, when I have more time than now I'll see what the concert date was - and if it was close to the elections, before or after, we know what to think. 144.136.192.55 (talk) 04:39, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Something may have been lost in translation. There were no "anti-semitic riots" in Warsaw... not as far as I know. However, there was an anti-government demonstration against Gabriel Narutowicz as president, because of his political leanings. He was called “the Jewish president” by the right wing because he was voted in by the minorities including Polish Jews (and others). He was born into a Polish-Lithuanian noble family, a brilliant man, assassinated by a National Democracy supporter. Needless to say, this was already discussed here more than two years ago, and the Narutowicz addition was voted out by this article's creator. Poeticbent talk 05:40, 7 May 2013 (UTC) — Ms Kremer, a folk singer, lied. She might have read snippets (or heard) about a demonstration, and thought of course, it was all about "me, me, me!" Whatever she red or misread however, was also false. Poeticbent talk 16:37, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! On 16 October 2010 I said in my edit summary: "there's no need to believe or disbelieve her story" in response to your comment from above User:4meter4, stating that you personally believe it. What I really meant is to suggest that relevant background can still be added, which would put her version of events in proper context... without the hanging statements in main-space which contradict themselves. – There was a mass gathering of Varsovians in 1922 soon after Kremer left. It is relevant in a sense that there is nothing else on record involving approximately 10,000 individuals. You also questioned her numbers, but why? My small expansion in that regard was removed along with the reference, but properly phrased it would simply provide what's needed, i.e. the actual gathering of 10,000 people on the streets of Warsaw coinciding with her story. Below are the two of my edits which didn't work out, with the proposed new edit.

In related news, thousands gathered in 1922 on the streets of Warsaw for the funeral of President Gabriel Narutowicz assassinated by a right-wing extremist Eligiusz Niewiadomski.^[1]
She might have meant a different city; if not, perhaps confusing her own life experiences with world events such as the shooting death of the Polish president Gabriel Narutowicz in an art gallery Zachęta. Narutowicz was assassinated in 1922 by a right-wing extremist Eligiusz Niewiadomski. His Warsaw funeral was attended by thousands.^[1]

Consider the following statement

On 16 December 1922, two months after Kremer's debut in New York of 29 October 1922, Polish president Gabriel Narutowicz was assassinated by a right-wing extremist Eligiusz Niewiadomski. The Warsaw funeral of the President was attended by thousands of Varsovians.^[1]

__________

^ ^a ^b ^c Warszawa 1918-1939: "Zabójstwo Prezydenta", Warsaw Encyclopedia (Encyklopedia Warszawy), Fundacja Promocji m. st. Warszawy 2010 Cite error: The named reference "W-E" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).

Cheers! --- Przemyśl (talk) 16:39, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think either of your proposed changes are helpful. The first point is in my view irrelevant. The assasination and funeral of the President took place roughly a half a year after Isa's Poland tour, and I don't think a correlation beteen Isa's riot story and that event can reasonably be drawn. She would not have been in Poland to witness the funeral, and would therefore not have confused that event with the aledged riot. They are two completely sepperate events with no connection, other than they happened in the same city within 6 months of each other. The second point is entirely original research. It is complete supposition on your part that Isa was mistaken in her account of events or worse lied about them. We shouldn't try and spin the content in any way. The current language in the article is perfect as is. It let's the reader decide what the truth is without any nudging on our part.4meter4 (talk) 19:58, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re: your comment (above) about seeing the article. University of Toronto Libraries don't have a Canadian Jewish Chronicle anywhere in their catalogues (not in English anyway),[1] and "zero" records containing the name Isa Kremer.[2] --- Przemyśl (talk) 01:20, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re Um... I used a special subscription online resource that the University of Toronto subscribes to that has access to thousands of various newspaper and journal articles. It allows students at the university to access resources that are not part of the university's hard copy collection. I didn't mean to infer that the university had a physical copy. Regaurdless, the article is linked to below.4meter4 (talk) 07:48, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You can read it here.Sourcelat0r (talk) 02:55, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is so fascinating as I think it explains the problem. To quote verbatim what the reporter writes:

The moment I came into the room, Miss Kremer startled me with: "Shall we talk in French, German, Russian, Yiddish or Italian?" I was flattered by the variety offered me, but requested English.

"English I do not spik so goot", said Isa modestly, and then admitted that she had been in America only 10 months. In spite of her modesty, the interview was carried on in English to the complete satisfaction of all concerned, though occasionally Isa jumped into French or Yiddish with such rapidity, and such complete ease, as to show that she must also think in the medium in which she speaks.

So, a solution emerges. This allegation of an event which quite clearly did not happen could stem from translation problems between Kremer clearly just barely getting along in English and the poor reporter only speaking English who just wants to get his interview with a star done. Sourcelat0r (talk) 03:07, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To sum this up, here is what may very well have happened. Isa Kremer came to Warsaw and some people must have objected to her singing Yiddish songs in some respected Opera house. This objection could have been anti-semitic, but maybe it also was on the grounds that "folk songs" do not belong in a proper concert hall, or the mixture of the two. There may have been some controversies and shouting matches over this. However, the "10,000 people pogrom with Jewish dead" must have been something that the reporter invented due to the confusion in understanding the spirited description of Kremer due to her less than perfect English.

Still, as only two of them were in that room, we cannot judge the quality of the interview and so we must take the reporter at his word, that the interview was carried out "to the complete satisfaction of all concerned". Anyway, I am fine with the article as it is. I think we can all agree though that the way the "Did you know" section presented the article on the Main Page was unfortunate. Sourcelat0r (talk) 03:47, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The quality of this interview really leaves something to be desired. It quotes Kramer as saying the following:

The year after the signing of the armistice, the wife of the president of the Duma, decided to hold a large concert in the Philharmonic Hall in Moscow, in the aid of the war orphans.

One year after the armistice would be 1919, and of course the Duma was abolished after the Russian Revolution in 1917. Its last chairman Mikhail Rodzianko was organizing the White armies in the Don region after the Bolshevik takeover during 1919. The idea that the Bolsheviks would allow his wife to organize a charity concert in Moscow in 1919 is ridiculous.

Clearly, the communication problems in that interview were significant, and the ignorance of the reporter about the affairs of Eastern Europe staggering. But given that the Canadian Jewish Chronicle was a small community paper, this is not surprising. Sourcelat0r (talk) 04:15, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article says Philharmonic, ie. Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra Hall, not an Opera. Xx236 (talk) 09:05, 19 October 2010 (UTC) I don't know about any Stowarzyszenie Patritow in Poland, it's a US organisation.Xx236 (talk) 09:14, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Isaac Babel's opinion

I wonder if this could or should go into the article:

Odessan chanteuses (I speak of Isa Kremer) with small voices, but full of joy, joy artfully expressed in their very being, a fervent and light, charmingly sad yet touching feeling for a life that is good and bad and extraordinarily – quand meme et malgré tout – interesting."^[1]

("Quand meme et malgré tout" = All the same and in spite of everything.)

References

^ Babel, Isaac (24 February 2016). "Odessa". The Odessa Review. Translated by Vinokur, Val. Retrieved 2 May 2023.

Larry Koenigsberg (talk) 21:01, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[W-E-1] Warszawa 1918-1939: "Zabójstwo Prezydenta", Warsaw Encyclopedia (Encyklopedia Warszawy), Fundacja Promocji m. st. Warszawy 2010 Cite error: The named reference "W-E" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).

[2] Babel, Isaac (24 February 2016). "Odessa". The Odessa Review. Translated by Vinokur, Val. Retrieved 2 May 2023.

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