Talk:Isidore of Kiev

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Eastern Orthodoxy

	This article is part of WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to the Eastern Orthodox Church. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. You may also want to look at the current collaboration of the month or the project's notice board.Eastern OrthodoxyWikipedia:WikiProject Eastern OrthodoxyTemplate:WikiProject Eastern OrthodoxyEastern Orthodoxy articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Religion: Interfaith Low‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is within the scope of Interfaith work group, a work group which is currently considered to be inactive.

Ukraine Mid‑importance

	Ukraine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Russia: Science & education / History / Religion Mid‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the science and education in Russia task force.
	This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.
	This article is supported by the religion in Russia task force.

Middle Ages: Crusades Low‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Crusades task force.

Untitled[edit]

In Latin Patriarch of Constantinople there is a sequence as follows:

Gregory Mamme (1451-1459)
Johannes Bessarion (1459-1472)
Peter Riario (1472-1474)

where there appears to be a problem:

Here, in Isidore the Apostate is mentioned:
"In 1458, he was ordained as a nominal Patriarch of Constantinople."

Which one is wrong?

(this discussion is replicated in Talk:Latin Patriarch of Constantinople).

--FocalPoint 10:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

found from Johannes Bessarion that he obtained the title in 1463, therefore Isidore of Kiev was inserted to the list.--FocalPoint 20:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Apostate"?[edit]

It is offensive to Catholics both of the Roman and of the Byzantine Rite to have Isidore listed as "the Apostate." This may be his title among the Eastern schismatics, but it is not how he is known among Catholics. This is like having Martin Luther and John Calvin called "Heresiarch" in the titles of their respective articles (which I actually would enjoy). At least you could say that he is an "apostate" only from the point of view of the so-called "Eastern Orthodox."

Agreed. Among English-speaking scholarly circles (who else would be talking about him anyway?) he is referred to generally as Isidore of Kiev, or more rarely Isidore of Thessalonica. I'm moving the article to Isidore of Kiev. InfernoXV 18:56, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I admit it is possible that you are right as I did not read much of the literature on the topic in English. However, next time before moving the article on your own, please elaborate on the talk putting forth the arguments for the move and give the conserned parties some time to respond. The earlier argument that the term is "offensive" was not convinsing if this was the main name known in literature. You say the different name is in fact used more. If so, the move is justified but as a coutesy, please propose the moves at talk pages first and give some time to respond. No one demands formal WP:RM for each move but the courtesy proposal seeking the feedback is almost always a good idea. Thanks, --Irpen 04:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Irpen, thank you for your comments. You're certainly right, and it was untactful and rude of me to move it without warning or discussing it first. I should explain myself. He is usually known as Isidore of Kiev or Isidore of Thessalonica in English-language scholarship, as a look at Byzantine and Mediæval Slavic studies written in English should show. I am aware that his usual title in Russian-language writing is 'the Apostate', but as far as I know, rarely used outside of Russian-language sources. I've been doing Byzantine studies for some years now and have never encountered 'the Apostate' in English, outside of polemical writing. Even academic writing in Greek refers to him usually as 'tês Thessalonikês'. In English-language scholarship, 'the Apostate' is usually only used in reference to Emperor Julian. I hope this suffices as an explanation - please let me know if you would like additional sources and references. Thank you again! InfernoXV 08:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, I have no reason to doubt your familiarity with the scholarship. Thanks for your explanation. Rest assured that if you propsed the moved and explained like above, no one would have objected. Anyway, let's just stick to the tradition of discussing the moves. Thanks for your interest to the Easterm Christianity topics. Cheers, --Irpen 08:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge[edit]

Clearly, Isidore of Thessalonica and Isidore of Kiev are two articles covering the same topic. They should be merged. Gentgeen (talk) 09:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. I will be merging them to Isidore of Kiev since it has 227 Google book hits as opposed to 27 of Isidore of Thessalonica.Thanks for taking the time to point this out.Xenovatis (talk) 14:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Metropolitan of Moscow???[edit]

Metropolitan of Moscow and Metropolitan in Moscow are two different things. Metropolitan of Moscow was created in 1589, while Isidore was sent to Moscow in 1437. Where is consistency?? Maybe he was sent to Moscow to preserve his Metropolitan of Kiev title, was he? Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:11, 4 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Russian Orthodox Church article, Isidore was the Muscovite Metropolitan of Kiev, not Metropolitan of Moscow. He was striving for unification of Orthodox and Catholic churches, for which he was imprisoned by the Muscovites authorities. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:18, 4 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Possible typo[edit]

"The Grand Duchy of Moscow[a 1] princes denounced the union with Rome, but Isidore persisted."

Are you sure you mean "denounced" here, rather than "renounced"?