Talk:Islamization of Albania

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14th century or 15th century[edit]

It reads "Albanians began converting to Islam when they became part of the Ottoman Empire in the 14th century." I think the phrase "14th century" is somewhat doubtful for Ottoman control was not fully established before Skanderbeg's death in 1468. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 18:17, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nedim Ardoğa. I understand where your coming from. Ramet refers to the conquest as commencing in 1385 and by 1394-96 the area of today's Albania was fully under the Ottomans. Though its a more complicated picture as it was ruled through Albanian vassal lords, they were still under the Ottoman sultan and acknowledged him as their sovereign. Skanderbeg's rebellion occurred only in the northern Albanian mountains and the boundaries or Ottoman free areas fluctuated until and some years after his death. Overall Ottoman control (of a centralised capacity in some areas and loose control in others) was long enough for Albanian elites to start embracing Islam during that time. Its referenced in the article. Best.Resnjari (talk) 19:44, 15 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Olsi Jazexhi[edit]

Resnjari, "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy ." Read better wp:reliable and wp:secondary, Olsi Jazexhi doesn't meet those criteria. Herakliu (talk) 09:27, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Herakliu, that is fine however all you have done is cite policy. You still have not demonstrated how Jazexhi is an issue. What are you basing this on? The use of Jazexhi here is a source that is peer reviewed in the West in a edited book on Islam with oversight by other Western academics (that meets the criteria of the policy you cite). Do you have a academic source that states Jazexhi is "not" a scholar or calls into question his credentials ? Do you have a source that calls into question his scholarship ? If you do then we can go further on the matter, until then its more on the wp:idontlikeit side.Resnjari (talk) 09:52, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Resnjari He holds fringe and unscentific ideas such as Muslim Albanians being all Muhaxhirs from Turkey (!!), absurdely claims that there aren't historical records of Albanian mass convertion from Cristianity to Islam in spite of abundant documentary evidence, calls Skanderbeg a Christian terrorist with no ethnic identity, other than completely denying the Albanian identity and the very existence of the Albanian nation among Albanian Muslims. His arguments are widely quoted and supported by the radical wahabi movement of Albania Kosovo and Fyrom, since Muslim ideology strictly contrasts with Albanian nationalism. His line of thought is remarkebly in line with the fringe Serbian ultranationalist ideas concerning Albanian ethnogenesis and identity and in fact he is not taken seriously by any Albanologist or historian.
I don't like to use such terminology but whatever argument concerning Albania comes from this figure is to be regarded as pure rubbish and overly unscentific. Herakliu (talk) 11:45, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Herakliu, I have read some of his articles in Albanian. Of those which are within the scholarly category, he has referred to issues relating to the word Turk and Albanian historical usage of it and the emergence of Albanian identity vis a vis the relationship with Islam. Those works can be viewed as controversial. Kopanski who wrote in the 1990s on Albania made an assessment of few to no sources as work into the matter had not been much done back then. The position is now untenable. On Islamisation i would say Jazexhi needs to do a lot more reading (that is putting it politely) as research is coming through now. However, in a similar vein conservative historians based in the West who hold certain views are interpreted at times as controversial or problematic like Daniel Pipes etc who gets cited in Wikipedia when it comes to their scholarly works as opposed to their articles or other opinion pieces on the web etc. On this article, i have made sure to include as much info that i could get my hands upon that presents a holistic picture of the Islamisation process (the good, bad and ugly). I have only used Jazexhi for the modern period for the following reasons. The source in which he has written the chapter on Albania is in an edited book [1]. The book is published in the West by Brill, a publishing company known for dealing much with academic work. The second reason is because it an edited chapter, his work cannot go into the book without the academics (based in the West) who are editors giving final oversight/approval for it. Usage of Jazexhi here meets the criteria of Wikipedia policy. I have also included Piro Misha in this article too and he is controversial in some quarters in Albania as well regarding views on Islam, but for here used only on the modern period and published in a Western academic source. I have avoided using any sources written in the Albanian language or ones published there as that would open a Pandora's box of crazy and POV. There was a debate on schools books about Islamisation some years back and Jazexhi notes this and its relevant to the article.Resnjari (talk) 12:41, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Resnjari I understan your points but I don't agree with them. We are not talking about a controversy here, but works of pure sci-fi for what concerns Albanian topics, dictated by a merely panislamic and consequently antiAlbanian ideological position. Jazexhi is not an objective subject when talking about Albanians, we could very well start using Burović then. Now I'm not really versed in Wiki yet, but I'm kinda sure that such kinds of work cannot be used as sources because they're POV. The source n.88 in particular is problematic, the word 'invasion' is in quotation marks, a clear and rather sad attempt at ridicule Albanian official historiography.
You did a good job with this page, you indeed accumulated a lot of sources, but in my opinion it really need this correction. Herakliu (talk) 07:11, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Herakliu, in the source that Jazexhi writes and cited for this article, there is nothing that refers to panislamism or what can be interpreted as anti-Albanian content. All that chapter refers to is the state of Muslim related affairs in Albania for the year he wrote it as it is a scholarly year book on European Islam. It has oversight by Western academics and published by a reputable Western based publishing house. All this meets the requirements of wp:reliable and wp:secondary. In this wiki article Jazexhi has not been used for content on how Albania became Muslim. Jazexhi has the word invasion in quotation marks in his chapter because that word was the main word being used during that debate on schoolbooks and he quoted it. I don't see an issue there. On Albanian historiography, that is very problematic due to a large part of it compromised by nationalism and government interference (see article for more). Writing this article could have had many issues, i tried to make sure it covers all bases, even the contemporary debate about legacy and yes Jazexhi looms large in that for worse or other. Even Western scholars like Cecile Endresen in their works can not write on religious affairs in Albania without devoting a sentence or two on Jazexhi in some form. Its just how it is. Resnjari (talk) 10:00, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Resnjari So an author can be cited in wikipedia even if he writes a lot of absurdities, provided that the cited phrase won't be controversial?
Still source n.88 should be removed. Among the many Jazexhi's absurdities I previously listed, I forgot the fanciful thesis of Albanian-Ottoman common rule of the empire. The quotation marks in the word 'invader' refers to that. It is a real and proper historiographic mistification. Herakliu (talk) 13:23, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Herakliu, Jazexhi has written in a capacity outside scholarly bounds. That content is not cited here and nor have i cited any of his works that are in Albanian. The same way as i said earlier with regards to Daniel Pipes, a noted conservative historian in the USA whose works outside a scholarly range include articles that are controversial. They however are not used in Wikipedia and only his scholarly works are. Jazexhi writes for the past few years a chapter in the yearbook on Islam in Europe and that is edited by other academics who have final say along with their publisher (these are in the West). In this particular work which is used in this article there is no Pan Islamism etc. Your main issue here is with the word "invasion". I acknowledge that is a contested term within Albanian historiography and on historiography in the West on Albania. The word was used during the schoolbooks debate and cited as such and Jazexhi notes where he got that info in the footnotes (his sources). He is not making it up. The absurdities lay with those who undertook the debate and how they went about it. I read some of that material when it was all happening some years back when i was doing my honours thesis and Jazexhi is very mild because that debate brought out a lot of crazy. Like i said this particular chapter from Jazexhi meets the wiki requirements. You are welcome to have this Jazexhi source taken to the Wikipedia reliable sources noticeboard to get a second opinion and may then prompt removal or allowing it to stay after a discussion. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not some national honour exercise. If that was case this article would be so small and so many others. Also take caution with Albanian historiography, it is not without its faults.Resnjari (talk) 13:48, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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