Talk:Israel/Archive 105

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Archive 105

Historically accurate information removed

User:Makeandtoss, who clearly edits with a pro-Palestine bias, has removed historically accurate information to perpetuate an inaccurate viewpoint. While the original article may have addressed the remaining territory, it's essential to note that the combined territory of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza constitutes only 23% of the British Mandate for Palestine. This information holds significant importance for maintaining neutrality.

Compare:

The [[1949 Armistice Agreements]] saw Israel's borders established over most of the former remaining Mandate territory, which is not including the 77% which was previously used to establish [[Jordan]] on 11 April 1922, while the rest, the [[Jordanian annexation of the West Bank|West Bank]] and the [[Occupation of the Gaza Strip by the United Arab Republic|Gaza Strip]], were taken by [[Jordan]] and [[Egypt]] respectively.

EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 13:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I stopped reading at: who clearly edits with a pro-Palestine bias. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Why not simply examine his edit history to either invalidate or validate my claim? EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 13:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

He promptly archived my talk post, which called out his edits, indicating a clear intention to conceal actions that could be viewed as biased editing from initial viewers. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 13:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Please cease your ad hominem attacks immediately before action is taken against you. Archiving talk pages is within my right, which is even optional and not mandated by Wikipedia that even allows blanking talk pages. As for my editing is supported by reliable sources and according to WP guidelines, unlike the last recent edit you tried to insert without a source. If it is an "indisputable fact", then I am sure it would be easy for you to provide a reliable source. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/10/05/opinion/is-jordan-palestine-of-course.html

80%, it's an obvious fact for anyone with any knowledge of history of the Levant, here's your reliable source. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 13:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I will gladly provide 100 more if you'd like... EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 13:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Opinion pieces are not reliable sources. And if it exists it is a fringe viewpoint in the literature. Doesn't belong in the lede as a summary of the body anyway. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:02, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It is a geographical fact, geography is not an opinion. The British Mandate for Palestine included both "Palestine" and "Jordan". Jordan constituted 80% of the British Mandate for Palestine. This is not an opinion, this is fact. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 14:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Here I have provided additional sources to support the geographical fact that Jordan comprised roughly 80% of the british mandate for palestine. Do you think this is satisfactory to update and correct the article?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/28/dueling-histories-debate-over-historic-palestine/

https://lsa.umich.edu/content/dam/cmenas-assets/cmenas-documents/unit-of-israel-palestine/Section1_BritishMandateInPalestine.pdf

https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/The%20League%20of%20Nations%20Mandate%20for%20Palestine%20-%201920.aspx?itid=lk_inline_enhanced-template#:~:text=The%20territory%20of%20the%20British,separate%20administrative%20entity%20called%20Transjordan.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/israel-palestine-gaza-west-bank-borders

EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 15:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

it's essential to note that the combined territory of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza constitutes only 23% of the British Mandate for Palestine. Rubbish, this is the propaganda nonsense that includes Jordan in the Mandate. Selfstudier (talk) 16:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Your response is completely unconstructive and baseless. Jordan was indeed a part of the British Mandate for Palestine, ummm Mandate for Palestine. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

And excluded from the Zionist provisions for nearly all of it, administered totally separately, and the border was not set until later so it wasn't even Jordan, it was just the other side of the Jordan. Selfstudier (talk) 16:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand the relevance between that and the fact I am trying to include for the sake of neutrality. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Me either, stop writing rubbish and I won't respond to it. Selfstudier (talk) 16:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The administration of the area that constitutes Jordan today does not alter the historical fact that approximately 77% of the land allocated under the British mandate was used to establish the state of Jordan. The timing of border agreements made by outside additional parties does not negate the established borders and the allocation of land. Your argument appears to rely on a strawman fallacy EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Please cite a reliable source showing this 77%. When you can't find one, let me know. Selfstudier (talk) 16:23, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Are these not Wikipedia:Reliable sources?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/28/dueling-histories-debate-over-historic-palestine/

https://lsa.umich.edu/content/dam/cmenas-assets/cmenas-documents/unit-of-israel-palestine/Section1_BritishMandateInPalestine.pdf

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/israel-palestine-gaza-west-bank-borders

EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Idk, you tell me. Selfstudier (talk) 16:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It was a rhetorical question. They are obviously reliable sources. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

You mentioned the Mandate for Palestine -> "Whilst the Mandate for Palestine document covered both Mandatory Palestine (from 1920) and the Emirate of Transjordan (added in 1921), Transjordan was never part of Mandatory Palestine." and 4 reliable sources cited to that. Selfstudier (talk) 16:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Awesome, from strawman fallacy to now changing the goalpost. :) I provide reliable sources, now they are not good enough. We're not talking about Mandatory Palestine, my edit CLEARLY said British Mandate for Palestine. EdmHopLover1995 (talk) 16:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

British Mandate for Palestine was a document, but your edit falsely and misleadingly makes a geographic connection with the area size. This point is irrelevant as far as the literature is concerned. And it still does not belong to the lede. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Israel Hebrew Name

in the Hebrew name of Israel the vowels are very hard to read. Rishypeasy (talk) 21:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@Rishypeasy not everyone can read niqqud. Ahri.boy (talk) 21:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

English

Just like Arabic, English is also a recognized language in Israel. Please add English alongside Arabic in the "recognized languages" section in the infobox. Here are the sources, as added to the article List of countries and territories where English is an official language.

MylowattsIAm (talk) 23:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 15:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Please add English alongside Arabic in the "recognized languages" section in the infobox. The sources I already gave. MylowattsIAm (talk) 08:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: English is not a de jure official language in Israel as stated in your cites. The article text appears to cover this correctly. O3000, Ret. (talk) 10:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Then why not add it as a de facto recognized language with these citations and footnotes explaining it? It's stared that it's use comes even before Arabic so it makes no sense to leave it out of the infobox. MylowattsIAm (talk) 14:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

There are a very large number of languages spoken in Israel as can be seen in the article on this at: Languages of Israel linked to in the languages section of this article. We cannot put them in an infobox. Please stop reopening this request. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

But English has a completely different status. One of the sources literally states "after Hebrew but before Arabic". It's not just another language used by someone in Israel, it is a working language of the state, a bit less important than Hebrew but more important than Arabic. Some articles use a row titled "working language" so perhaps we could use that here. I will reopen the request again for the last time. MylowattsIAm (talk) 08:18, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to support this suggestion. More sources are needed to back the claim of English as the working language. Ahri.boy (talk) 21:43, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

English is used around the world, somewhat like French centuries ago. I've been to many countries in South America, Europe, and Asia-Pacific and had little problem using English. {OK, some difficulty in parts of the US.) This is partly due the prevalence of tech related documents written in English, and partly due to pop music and movies, and partly due to the annoying American tourists countries put up with. Israel is a special case. But these factors still exist. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:11, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 00:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Separate section for "Criticism (of Israel)"?

In the Government and politics section, there is a "see also" link for the Criticism of Israel. I wonder if there should be a separate section altogether for that, especially considering some of the criticism for the state is not entirely about "government and politics" (examples: islamophobia, antisemitism, etc). Josethewikier (talk) 03:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Not what we are looking for...WP:STRUCTURE "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure..." WP:CSECTION " Sections within an article dedicated to negative criticisms are normally also discouraged. " Moxy🍁 03:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

NPOV in the lede

Does anyone disagree with the content or the phrasing in this paragraph:

Israel is located in a region known historically as Canaan, Palestine, and the Holy Land. In antiquity, it was home to several Canaanite, and later, Israelite and Judahite states, and is referred to as the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition. The region was successively conquered and assimilated by the Assyrian, Babylonian, Achaemenid, Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine empires, the Arab Caliphates, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mamluks and the Ottomans, causing the region to become very cosmopolitan. The late 19th century saw the rise of Zionism in Europe, a movement seeking a Jewish homeland, which garnered British support during World War I. During the war, the Ottomans were defeated and the British Mandate for Palestine was set up in 1920. Jewish immigration to Mandatory Palestine increased considerably, leading to intercommunal conflict between Jews and Arabs. The 1947 UN Partition Plan triggered a civil war between the two groups, which saw the expulsion and flight of most of Mandatory Palestine's predominantly Arab population, a central component of the fracturing, dispossession, and displacement of Palestinians known as the Nakba in Palestinian society.

Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I've added

...exacerbated by British colonial policy of divide and rule.

at the end of the sentence on intercommunal conflict Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Can you remove the cosmopolitan part in the lead OR add the corresponding info in the body as the lead is supposed to be a summary of the body? Also could you please check the article length as this article was previously tagged as being too long? Wafflefrites (talk) 11:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

That is a small paragraph summarising thousands of years of history, I think it is very concise, and smaller than a lot paragraphs in other ledes or even in this lede. Are citations included when discussing the article length?

Is that not a basic fact backed up by sources, therefore not needing to be in the body as per WP:Lede? Regardless I agree it needs to be mentioned in the body of the article, I'll work on it now. Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:28, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal: Please revert first and seek consensus, rather than the other way around. As much as I agree with the framing of your edits, but this is really overdetailed. Lede should be as brief and factual as possible, without any analyses or the mention of multiple other things. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll shorten the final sentence to

...Arab population, a central component of what is known as the Nakba in Palestinian society.

Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:10, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Still overdetailed, especially the cosmopolitan and the whole Nakba thing. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

They're small one clause sentences. The cosmopolitan part summarises the effect lots of different ruling empires had on the region and links that sentence back to the region/rounds it off. The Nakba sentence is just a few words long to add a highly relevant page link. Furthermore, the paragraph still remains quite short. Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I changed very to fairly cosmopolitan Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm trying to think of a couple words we could add to imply previous Jewish migrations such as after the Spanish inquisition Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I am ok with shortening the sentence and don’t mind keeping the link to Nakba, but I will admit I my reasoning is completely biased, so I cannot really provide appropriate reasoning on that. Please see WP:LENGTH for article length guidelines. Wafflefrites (talk) 13:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The guidelines are quite ambiguous, there might be a way to include the information in this paragraph with less words without killing the flow but I'm not seeing it Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s under WP:SIZERULE. I can check the length later and trim appropriately if needed. I think I am ok with keeping the link to Nakba because the link was previously in the lead and seemed important to some editors, but that is pretty much the reason. Probably need additional feedback from others. Wafflefrites (talk) 13:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the part saying in Palestinian society is key to state the perspective Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Would it not be easier to trim the sections down a little rather than the lede?

Also would very cosmopolitan be lede worthy? The only reason I put fairly was because I only had two sources. I suppose the word assimilated alludes to this, idk, but it wasn't necessarily the various empires causing this but waves of migration Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I do really think this is key to the history of Israel/Palestine region and I'm amazed it wasn't already talked about in the article. Also, I don't understand why you referenced malaria Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not familiar with that part of the history. Is it in the Wikipedia article for Palestine (region)? I mentioned malaria because I am wondering how cosmopolitan the region was if malaria was endemic. Also I am wondering if the cosmopolitan part is not mentioned because this article is mostly focusing on the region when it was/is named Israel. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:04, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I suppose it’s the age old focus on political history rather than social history Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:12, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@Wafflefrites how about rewriting the sentence that lists empires and replacing it with:

Located at a continental crossroad, the southern Levant came under the rule of many different empires, such as the Assyrian, Babylonian, Achaemenid, Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine empires, the Arab Caliphates, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mamluks and the Ottomans, with its wide array of holy sites in various faiths attracting waves of immigration throughout history.

This leads into the next sentence well and flows well, and we could trim the 26 words from elsewhere. Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I would remove “many” and “its wide array of” for concision Wafflefrites (talk) 21:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, I suppose 'many' is rendered superfluous by the long list immediately after Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:16, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

What I'm seeing is mass changes by 2 new editors....... let's make sure we give good edit summaries. And let's make sure if there are reverts this is not taking personally....we can discuss things. Moxy🍁 03:57, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah sorry I get impatient Alexanderkowal (talk) 06:50, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Obv the premise for discussion shouldn’t be me defending changes but rather multiple people contributing to a consensus on the changes Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:11, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

The list of empires wasn’t random, it was a list of empires in the order of those that ruled over the region. I really don’t think it makes sense for this period of history to be entirely ignored here. Alexanderkowal (talk) 05:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the copyedit; naming the various empires is unnecessary detail for the lead; "many different empires" is better. Although, I think even better would be improved by mentioning (in some brief formulation) that the different empires included Jewish, Islamic, Christian, and "other" empires. The whole "crossroads of three continents" thing. It explains why the area is important to Jews, Muslims, Christians, and others. Levivich (talk) 06:05, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with that, although the many different empires refers to the time period after Judah. I think that would have to be in the first sentence of the paragraph Alexanderkowal (talk) 06:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

How about “… Holy Land, and has been controlled by Jewish, Muslim, and Christian polities throughout history.” Alexanderkowal (talk) 06:30, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

References