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Israeli vs. Arab Salad

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Israeli Salad need not be chopped too fine, and most often includes fine diced onions, preferably red. Israelis of Hungarian origin add also garlic. The seasoning includes black pepper and salt too.

The more finely chopped salad described in the article is the one referred to as "salat Aravi", i.e. Arab salad, which is characterized by being very finely chopped.

I have lived in Israel, and "Salat" always means finely diced salad. Can anyone find a better picture that is actually cut small?

The onion is optional. Diced raw tomatoes and unpeeled cucumbers is a basic Israeli salad, and that's what you'll get on the side in many Israeli cafes over here in NYC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.116.101 (talk) 21:42, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

whoops.

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sorry. i didnt realize there already was an Israeli Salad article. If anyone can delete this, that would be great. thanks. Ilikefood 20:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli Salad now redirects here, so job seems to have been acomplished. Nahum 04:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Salad Shirazi

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Hi @JBW: it's "Salad Shirazi" and not a "Israeil Salad" with simple search on Google can be know, please change the article title or move that, thanks 𝕬𝖋𝖑𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖜𝖔 11:43, 13 June 2020 (UTC)Aflantwo[reply]

See Shirazi salad. --Off-shell (talk) 19:40, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Off-shell: but both is one thing man! Salad Shirazi is more historical! for example can I change the Pizza name and say it's for UAE?!!! no man! they just change the name and put the Israeil on it and say that is for us!! is like a joke man!! so Tamburger (Hamburger) is for Afghanistan!! haha just name changing!!!!!!!! ----Aflantwo (talk)

Lettuce

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I just can't believe that i'm marking this as "dubious", but why can't the "Israeli salad" contain lettuce?

A source that speaks strongly against lettuce would be nice. If there's no source, just remove lettuce from the article.

(It doesn't mean much, but lettuce is mentioned in the commentaries to one of the sources cited here.) --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 23:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that the salad "can't" contain lettuce, but that lettuce is not a traditional ingredient. The whole point of this article is to accentuate the difference between "vegetable salad" in general and the specific salad known as Israeli salad or Salat Aravit - which consists of finely diced tomato and cucumber. I can't believe this is something anyone has to argue about. Google a classic recipe for "Israeli salad" and see for yourself.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One of the first results on Google: http://humus101.com/EN/2007/09/08/israeli-salad-recipe/
And it includes lettuce.
Do you have a reliable source that says "no lettuce in the Traditional Salad"? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 07:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Middle easterns generally don't use lettuce in their salad. They eat lettuce separately with sliced tomato's, peppers and feta cheese (in a sandwich) but not mixed into a salad. Look in your local kebab shop, you will see lettuce (often not used at all in ME) is always kept separate from other ingredients. Probably because middle eastern countries are hot and lettuce would wilt too fast, especially if it was sliced and mixed with other vegetables, oil and lemon juice. A salad without lettuce but with tomato's, onions, parsley, garlic, cucumber and olive oil would turn to a sort of salsa in the worst case scenario (and perhaps make it even tastier as the flavors mix into the oil). This salad was eaten in Palestine and the rest of the middle east long before Israel was created and there should be no doubt it is part of the middle eastern cuisine. I have no problem with calling it israeli salad though, since israeli's call it arab salad (salad aravit) and acknowledge the arab/middle eastern origin. It is only logical that Israeli's (mostly european jews) are changing their cuisine from european style to middle eastern style because they are in a different geographically region now with different ingredients. Ibrahim4048 (talk) 23:19, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Just to make this clear, to answer the original question - This article is about a particular kind of salad, common in Israel, and commonly referred to as "Israeli Salad" in USA. It is commonly sold in cafes and delis, especially in NYC, as a simple product of diced tomato and cucumber. The diner, or course, may add ingredients like croutons or creamy dressing etc. It might be possible to imagine a classy restaurant serving this salad on top of a broad lettuce leaf, but otherwise, even fancy versions of "Israeli Salad" only contain food that can be cubed, or have some comparable shape.

Mediterranean Cuisine

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Israel is a country located on the Mediterranean, and its cuisine has been vastly influenced by Middle Eastern as well as Mediterranean countries. Is there a reason why this food shouldnt be included in Mediterranean cuisine? Some editors have felt it should be removed from the category. --Nsaum75 (talk) 07:03, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

this food article belong in Mediterranean need to be renamed arab salad because it is arab food that israeli state have adopted and try to pass off as their own. Ani medjool (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:44, 9 February 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Can we leave out Anti-Israel comments from an article on food please! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.37.235 (talk) 23:56, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I don't think that tomatos have been cultivated by Arabs for all that long. Also, as far as I can tell, Arab salad is usually more finely chopped than Israeli salad, and uses slightly different vegetables.
Jacob Davidosn —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 05:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

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The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was do not move: see WP:SNOWBALL Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:37, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Arabic salad

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A new article Arabic salad has just been written. Please visit it and express your editorial judgment. --Zlerman (talk) 06:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's fine with me. Maybe it will help stop the vandalizing of this page.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd agree with Gilabrand, that hopefully it will stop the vandalizing of Israeli salad. Maybe this is just wishful thinking though, as there seems to have been an uptick of vandalism recently involving the removal of Israeli/Jewish/Hebrew references from a number of food articles. On a side note, it looks like parts of Arabic salad might have been copied from Israeli salad; for instance, "salad shirazi" is in bold text, just like it had been in Israeli salad until recently. --Nsaum75 (talk) 22:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It might be that parts of the arab salad article were copied from this article but it is a fact that the israeli salad itself is based on the arab/middle eastern salad. Prior to 1948 israel didn't even exist and palestine and its inhabitants (arabs and mizrahi jews alike) were part of the arab world. Since this israeli salad is actually the arab salad (as it is called salat aravit by israeli's) why do you object to someone creating the arab salad article and copying some parts of this article? Ibrahim4048 (talk) 00:41, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Shalom Ibrahim4048, I have no objection to the Arabic salad article. Our editorial opinion was asked for by Zlerman, so I simply stated the obvious - that it appeared sections were copied & pasted from Israeli salad. --Nsaum75 (talk) 00:59, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Shlomo/Selam. If you look at the history [3] of this page, you can see that from the very beginning this article was about a middle eastern (arab) salad that was served with falafel. What annoyed me was that even tough it clearly was a middle eastern salad and in time the similarity to the persian and the turkish salads were added, the words middle eastern and arab were carefully avoided for a long time. Somebody added the fact that it was actually called salat aravit by israeli's but that got deleted several times. Why call it a mediterranean salad and not middle eastern? Did they want it to sound like a spanish, italian or greek salad instead of something from the filthy middle east? This is not only done with food but with everything from the middle east/arabs/mizrahi jews. They call it mediterranean (yam tikhonit) instead of middle eastern or arabic. If ashkenazi jews are really jews, they are descendants of camel riding, tent dwelling towelheads just like the rest of the middle eastern arabs, assyrians, arameans, kurds etc. The moment they (or their parents) started living in israel and became palestinians/israeli's they ceased to be ashkenazi (region in europe) and became mizrahi's. They have to accept being middle easterners because they just are. I'm sorry if I accused you too quickly but the fact that many ashkenazi jews look down on middle easterners and even mizrahi jews makes me edgy about possible negative comments about the ME. Ibrahim4048 (talk) 09:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Merger proposal

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The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was do not move: see WP:SNOWBALL - Epson291 (talk) 03:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Arabic salad. They are the same salads and even in Israel this salad is known as Arab salad-salat aravi. They also use some same sources. AlHabibi1958 (talk) 01:14, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Salat aravi is only one of its names in Israel. There are others. This proposal is essentially no different than that discussed recently (please see "Requested move", above), which resulted in a strong consensus opposed. It would seem pointless to pursue further. Hertz1888 (talk) 02:09, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly Oppose -- Israeli salad was created on 9 May 2006, Arabic salad was created three years later, on 3 March 2009, liberally borrowing text from the existing article on Israeli salad. If any merging is to be done, then Arabic salad should be merged into Israeli salad, and not as suggested. --Zlerman (talk) 02:58, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Hertz1888 that this has already been discussed and rejected as part of the previous move proposal (see "Requested move" above). The merge proposal tag should be removed from the main article forthwith. --Zlerman (talk) 03:58, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly Oppose -- It seems pointless to persue this, given the recent attempt to rename it failed unanimously. Also, the recently added photo in the Arabic salad article seems to contain lettuce. Israeli salad does not contain lettuce. --Nsaum75 (talk) 04:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - While it is clear that Israeli salad is a knock-off of Arabic salad, it should not be merged into Arabic salad. In fact, the article Arabic salad should be renamed Arabic salads and contain sections for each Arabic salad, such as Fattoush, Tabouleh, etc., etc. The Israeli salad article should mention that what is marketed as Israeli salad in New York delis is in fact Palestinian rural salad. That it was appropriated, like many other foodstuffs by Israelis, does not change the fact that it exists as something people refer to by that name.Tiamuttalk 13:13, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly oppose and speedy close - This was just discusssed and unanimously rejected - Epson291 (talk) 23:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Tiamut and Epson291. Ian Pitchford (talk) 19:39, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Reading these two articles suggests to me that the difference between Arab salad and Israeli salad is the inclusion of onion (mentioned in the Arabic recipe, but not in the Israeli one). I like to put a lot of cilantro and cumin or za'atar in my salad (mentioned in neither article), so I guess what I eat is neither, and requires yet a third article. --Ravpapa (talk) 17:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

keep article and do not merge. article has value and shows example of israeli appropriation of traditionally palestian foods. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KeyanAlFaoud (talk • contribs) 21:34, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Middle Eastern chopped salad

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While there is no question that in English the name "Israeli salad" is far and away more common than Arab salad-salat aravi the fact that finely diced salad composed primarily of tomatoes and cucumbers is a regin-wide traditon, albeit not an ancient one. There were no tomatoes in the Levant before Columbus, which is part of what makes assertions that this is an old Arab tradition so silly. Pace Joseph Massad, it would be interesting to know when tomatoes began to be cultivated gy fellahin. I would bet on the late nineteenth century, possibly not until the twentieth. Raw diced salad is a highly improbably Mediterranean pre-modern peasant dish. Knowing some culinary history makes this debate very amusing. Nevertheless, we might consider merging into an article entitled something like Middle Eastern chopped salad. And discuss naming traditions and who does - and does not - add onions.Historicist (talk) 02:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While not doubting the merits of a possible merge into an article about Middle Eastern chopped salad, I do have concerns that such a merger would result in the very outcome that the two recent renaming and merging RfC were attemping to achieve -- and that is selectively denying or minimalizing certain cultural contributions to a food. I have been following and editing Middle Eastern food articles for quite some time now, and I have watched as editors have attempted to find creative ways to use Wikipedia's own "laws" regarding sourced information to try to either demonize certain cultures' contributions and adoptions of foods or turn seemingly innocent articles about mashed chickpeas into political statements about the Arab-Israeli conflict. (See here and here) --Nsaum75 (talk) 10:37, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good Lord. Truly absurd. And the history of Israeli salad is extremely poorly sourced. I suspect that the date of cultivation of tomatoes in the region is known. It would put a very firm limit on how "ancient" this typical food of the Palestinian peasants can possibly be. It is almost inconceivable that they were grown in the region before the nineteenth century. And would not be surprising if they were introduced well after the first aliyah.Historicist (talk) 00:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The politicization of food is absurd. In fact, several middle eastern foods have made it onto the WP:LAME list (scroll down to Hummus & friends) after repeated edit wars by editors on both sides of the Arab-Israeli conflict. --Nsaum75 (talk) 02:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the chuckle, and for the insight into the mad world of wikipedia edit wars.Historicist (talk) 16:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Political contention section

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It was deleted while I was away from Wiki, so I restored it today. It was deleted again by Hertz188 who writes that the reason for the deletion was given in an edit summary of May 26. [4] I don't think sourced info can be deleted with a rationale given in an edit summary. So could we please open a discussion as to whether or not and how if so this information should be included? Those deleting it are asked to explain why for starters. Tiamuttalk 17:24, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See discussion above: "The politicization of food is absurd", etc. To call adopting or adapting a food "racism" is especially ridiculous. I don't understand your objection regarding the use of an edit summary. Edit summaries appear to be used routinely to explain deletions, including of sourced material. Hertz1888 (talk) 17:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So your POV is that the politicization of food is absurd and adaptation or adoption is inoffensive and routine. The POV of Joseph Massad is that Palestinian rural salad, like Palestinian land, was appropriated and renamed by Israel, and he finds this appropriation to be racist and offensive. Per NPOV, we are to express all significant viewpoints on an issue published by reliable sources. If you publish something reflecting your POV, I would have no problem including it in the article. So why is that Massad's POV should be excluded again? Which policy exactly dictates its banishment? Tiamuttalk 17:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For one thing, it is not balanced with any contrary perspective. What policy mandates its inclusion? I refer you back again to the original edit summary for a very succinct statement. Time for others to weigh in here. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Massad is saying there is no such thing as Israeli salad. The article says there is. So the whole of the article expresses the other POV. A couple of sentences expressing the viewpoint held by many Arabs that there is no such thing, its just Arab salad with another name should not be excluded. Tiamuttalk 18:16, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, found this very funny article on the politicization issue. [5] Perhaps we should include it as an external link on all the contested food pages? Tiamuttalk 18:36, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great find! Thanks for the laughs. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problemo. Tiamuttalk 19:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Don't hide behind the "NPOV" slogan. The entire "political contention" section is anything but neutral. It reads like a polemic against Israel and a rant by someone with an axe to grind, without supplying any counter-arguments. Chopped salads similar to the Israeli salad are found across the Middle East and beyond, including among non-Arab peoples in Turkey and Iran. The tomato itself was introduced to the Middle East by a Brit in the 19th century and originated in the New World. I see no evidence that this salad was a particular innovation of the Palestinian Arabs.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 18:51, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You must be a historicist, knowing about the tomato and all that.
It doesn't matter what you or I think about origins of this salad. What does matter is what reliable sources have to say about the salad. Joseph Massad and the Israeli food editor to whom these ideas are attributed constitute reliable sources for the purposes of this article. Per WP:NPOV, we have to represent all significant POVs on a subject. That's why we have an article on Israeli salad, because there are reliable sources that describe such a thing. And because there are reliable sources that say there is no such thing, we include what they have to say as well. Tiamuttalk 19:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merged material into history section

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I've dismantled the "Political contention" section, merging its content into the "History" section. I don't think that labelling the section this way is in line with WP:NPOV. The two individuals quoted are an Israeli food editor and a Palestinian academic who both say essentially the same thing - that Israeli salad is actually Arab or Palestinian. No contention there. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who says otherwise actually. Tiamuttalk 19:26, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. As currently worded, I am OK with the merge. The political contention of a specific foodstuff is part of its history, so it is fitting to merge them in this instance. --Nsaum75 (talk) 19:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you agree, and thanks for restoring the material earlier on. Tiamuttalk 20:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The information I re added here [6] is about the history and origin of the food, so of course its important information for this article and deserves to be here. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:11, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

no it does not it is a WP:FRINGE so you can say as many times as you want that it is the truth but that does not make it reality. this trying to politicize wikipedia in every way possible, definitely does not belong in article about food. LibiBamizrach (talk) 22:15, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How is it fringe? What other sources contradict these two sources? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:23, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Epilogue

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I have to say - being Israeli, I don't really see what's all the fuss about. In Israel the salad is called - as mentioned in the article - "vegetable salad", "chopped salad" (common) and "Arab salad" (common, unique). No one calls it here "Israeli salad", and no one has any claims of authenticity on it or on half a dozen other dishes, however popular (in Israel) and identifiably-Israeli they are. On another note - the whole topic to me seems a bit petty, if not argumentative and counter-NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.138.86.245 (talk) 00:51, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tomato history - OR?

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I have some concerns about this section: The dish cannot be an ancient one since the tomato was a New World crop, introduced to cultivation in the Middle East by John Barker, British consul in Aleppo c. 1799 –c. 1825.[1][2] Nineteenth century descriptions of tomato consumption are uniformly as a part of a cooked dish. In 1881 the tomato is described as only eaten in the region, "within the last forty years."[3]

None of these sources mention Israeli salad. One could argue that the history of the salad's ingredients are relevant here. However, it a) implies the Israel was established in the region prior to 1948, which is not true and b) the first sentence would still be unjustified since it makes a SYNTH conclusion about the age of the dish based on the history of tomato cultivation in the region. For all we know, a finely chopped salad was made before without tomatoes and they were added to the mix once it became available. We cannot know since these sources do not discuss the origin of this salad. Accordingly, I think we should remove this information. Tiamuttalk 19:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hebrew was established in Jerusalem in 1891. The Hebrew State's (that is its name in its own written Declaration of Independence!) birth at 1948 makes it older than Jordan. Do you claim that there is no Jordanian culture? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.56.210.195 (talk) 18:24, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The lead states its a salad made of finely diced tomato and cucumber, therefore it shown that tomato is essential to this specific incarnation of the salad. However, I agree with some of your OR concerns; before removing it outright, we should see if it can be substantiated in some other form, since the tomato is indeed 1/2 of the current ingredients of the current form of the salad. --Nsaum75 (talk) 20:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tiamut is preoccupied with delegitimizing Israel and its right to a call a salad Israeli, citing the fact that when the tomato was introduced to the Middle East during the 19th century, Israel, as a state, was not established in the region, and citing an Israeli food editor as saying that there is no such thing as an Israeli salad, that it is in fact an "Arab salad, a Palestinian salad". However, this line of reasoning is weak, because when the tomato was introduced into the Ottoman Middle East in the 19th century, there was in fact no entity known as Palestine, and indeed such an entity would not exist until the early 20s, when Palestine was the name of a British mandated territory, and not a nation or nationality. As for the salad being an Arab salad, similar chopped salads are also a staple of non-Arab societies in the wider Middle East and Mediterranean, and the evidence cited in the article does not support the contention that the salad is ultimately Arab in origin.
At the end of the day, the right to call this salad an "Israeli salad" when it is prepared in Israel or by Israelis does not preclude the right of others to call similar types of chopped salads "Arab salad", "Palestinian salad", "Lebanese salad", "Turkish salad", "Middle Eastern salad", "Persian salad" or "Mediterranean salad", and these names are equally legitimate. However, what Tiamut is trying to do is to single out the term "Israeli salad" and delegitimize its use.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 22:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tiamut did not write the original section, but she did find the information relevant and well-sourced. Tiamut rewrote the information and added it to the article after seeing it deleted on weak rationales. Tiamut kindly asks that you do not speculate as to her intentions, since she is quite sure you are familiar with WP:AGF.
Now back to the content: The material is relevant and well-sourced and reflects WP:NPOV and WP:V well. I don't see the problem. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid rationale for removing information from an article. Tiamuttalk 22:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Does it matter what I say? Tiamut will have her way.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 17:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'm running a miniature theocracy here, where I, Tiamut, rule as goddess of the void from which Wikipedia is produced. Listen, if you something of value to add this article, please add it. I'm not stopping you. Truth is, you haven't yet bothered. It's much easier to sit on the sidelines and yell instructions than it is to actually play the game. So if you're quite done here, I have other matches to move on to. Thank you very much and have a nice day. Tiamuttalk 18:05, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think israel salad should be merge and become a section of Arab salads. It basically same thing and duplicate information on wikipedia. Two source in article already say it is arab salad that Israeli rename Israeli salad. This back up my reason to merge article with Arab salads. Also anyone looking to read about salad in middle east will look for arab salad, so in actualness the Israeli salad information would get readed more as section of Arab salads than in article by self. Ani medjool (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:41, 26 August 2009 (UTC).[reply]

If there is enough material in reliable sources to justify having an article on Israeli salad (and it seems that there is), then we can have an article on it. In this article, we can include all the viewpoints of significance, including that of many Palestinians and Israelis who say this is Arab salad (Heck, its in the introduction as one of its alternate names). I can understand the rationale for a merger proposal, but I don't think its worth pursuing. Tiamuttalk 22:51, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe article should still be merge. When main quote and source say it be Arab or Salat Palestine then that make difference. Other articles of salad similar to Arab salad do not have quote or source saying they are the same salad with new name. So I say merge into section of Arab salad. Thank you. Ani medjool (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC).[reply]

References

  1. ^ British Consuls in Aleppo
  2. ^ Syria under the last five Turkish Sultans, Appletons' journal Published by D. Appleton and Co., 1876, p. 519 [1]
  3. ^ The Friend, 1881, p. 223 [2]

censorship

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Please do not remove documented information as you did here [7], you have no consensus for its removal and it is important to show the appropriation that took place. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Censorship? Aren't we being a little quick here with the accusations? I suggest following the advice of Tiamut at Talk:Hummus#Controversy, specifically in regard to using this quote without the last line. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Wikipedia:Quote#When_not_to_use_quotations" states that quotes should not be used when "the quotation is being used to substitute rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias. This can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject into Wikipedia's narrative on the subject, and should be avoided. It appears that this may be occurring in this instance, as has been the case at other articles with this same quote. Furthermore the quote is giving the opinion of one person interviewed for the article, not the opinion of the article itself. --nsaum75¡שיחת!‎ 19:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that the entire quote to be used, removing the last line is censorship, the entire truth must be shown. There is nothing rhetorical in the quote, he was just speaking the truth about what has happened. The quote is presented as a quote from one person, so there is no problem there. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:53, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to rewrite the disputed paragraphs in a way that might be palatable to everyone. I suppose now everyone will be mad at me. Ah, well. --Ravpapa (talk) 07:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted. Your changes are OR and SYNTH. Tiamuttalk 07:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ravpapa, please first discuss here any changes you want to make before. Where in the sources does it say: "The Levantine origins of this dish have caused Arab nationalists to decry what they consider the "appropriation"" and what does the president of Lebanese Industrialists Association talking about hummus have to do with this article? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:36, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are both right. Much better to edit war endlessly over the section. Adds to overall credibility of the Wikipedia. --Ravpapa (talk) 07:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Much better for the credibility of wikipedia to let editors remove sourced historical content from articles without being able to back up the reason for its removal on the talkpage and then re write texts so it doesn't follow the source. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:53, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why are instruments of the Jewish state being allowed to pervert this article by censoring quotes and statements that reveal discontent with israels attempt to fabricate a cuisine and culture out of arab food and arab contributions to the world? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bulgarwheat (talk • contribs) 17:31, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dear, Arab scholars during the 7th-9th centuries made many mathematical and astronomical discoveries while advancing human knowledge, that you should hardly defend their salads as contributions to humanity. No need in drama or conspiracy theories. 89.138.1.56 (talk) 23:07, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that the Israeli Cusine article is called a good article but it has the same factual censorship problems as well as outright lies like presenting the golan heights as if it and the wineries there are part of Israel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bulgarwheat (talk • contribs) 22:30, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not everything that doesn't suit your political world view is necessarily censorship. Regarding the Golan heights - they ARE part of Israel at the moment, and are recognized by many states as such. Nevertheless, even if you will refer to it as Syrian territory, the wineries and vineyards are certainly Israeli - a whole industry that was non-existent there at the time of Syrian control. 89.138.1.56 (talk) 22:59, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Food editor Gil Hovav

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Gilisa, No one has said Gil Hovav is historical authority, he is a food editor and its presented as from him. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gilisa, Please stop edit warring and get consensus first at the talkpage if you want to remove it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed! Edit warring is unproductive. NickCT (talk) 16:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My last edit

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Hello everyone. I've made a bold edit to the History section.

  1. I've removed the OR/SYNTH material about the tomato and the speculation regarding the antiquity of the dish.
  2. I've moved the quote froom Gil Hovav into a footnote and moved up and rephrased the Massad material so that the two, which discuss the same thing, areplaced together.
  3. I've copyedited the text througout, clarifying where there seemed to be ambiguity and moved paragraphs/sentences around for better logical flow.

Thanks to Ravpapa for reminding me about this section. I disagree that Massad needs removing, but look forward to hearing critiques/comments/or seeing followup changes undertaken. Tiamuttalk 21:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks okay to me. I'm a bit sorry to see the tomato history bit gone - not because it was relevant, but it was so interesting. Really the most interesting part of the article, the rest is kind of boring. Well, I'll just have to read about it at Tomato.
The Hovav and Massad quotes ostensibly are about the same thing, but there is a subtle difference between them, that is lost in this edit. Hovav is stating a simple, historical fact - that Israeli salad has its origin in Palestinian salad. Massad is imbuing that fact with political significance. That political significance - that Israelis' total adoption of the salad is a form of "appropriation" and a way of denying Palestinian identity - is actually lost in this version. It sounds like Massad is simply reinforcing Hovav's statement - something that is convincing enough on its own.
It is, of course, problematic to present Massad's thesis out of the context of his original article. The article is very convincing, but the quote here, IMHO, makes his argument seem trivial, like accusing Americans of cultural imperialism against the Neapolitans for Pizza Hut. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your feedback Ravpapa. How do you propose rewording the text to make clear the difference between Hovav and Massad's work? Or is it that you think there is no good way to present Massad's thesis here? Good to hear from you as always. Tiamuttalk 08:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What Ravpapa is saying above and the text that Tiamut added is inaccurate, Hovav did not say that "Israeli salad has its origin in Palestinian salad", he said that "Israeli salad" is actually a Palestinian and Arab salad. How is Massad text taken out of context? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think what i added was accurate. But i accepted your change and just cleaned up the language a bit. Tiamuttalk 17:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The solution that comes to mind involves a lot of work, perhaps for naught, but perhaps worthwhile. I would suggest moving the quote out of this article and into Israeli cuisine. There, I would create a new section called, "Food and Politics" and I would discuss the idea that the adoption of local cuisine - like the adoption of local musical modes, of local forms of dress, and so on - was an attempt by early Jewish settlers to create a new identity, divorced from the shtetl identity; and that, the flip side of this was a feeling of "culinary imperialism" felt by the local Palestinian population. I am sure there are sources that discuss this (I know of sources that talk about this with relation to music, but not food). The person who would know is Gadi Algazi, a medieval history professor who is also an expert in culinary history and an activist in Taayush. You should write him through his website.
I think a section like that in the Israeli cuisine article would be a really valuable addition to the article, and would be a natural home for Massad's comments. But, as I say, it is a lot of work. Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 10:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even if you created a section like that in Israeli cuisine, that would not be a reason to remove well sourced information about what this dish actually is from this article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are free to do with the quote as you please. My edits to the section were intended only to end the edit war; I have no particular interest in this article. My only point is that the quote as it is now, and as it was in the previous version, is a little ridiculous and not worthy of Massad's excellent scholarship. But if you like it, by all means keep it. --Ravpapa (talk) 12:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You don't end an edit war by removing and twisting sourced information so they don't follow the sources. Especially when those edit warring trying to remove the sourced information are obvious socks through IPs and fake "clean start" accounts or other editors who are removing it based on misrepresentation of the sources. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think Ravpapa's suggestion is a good one. I wish I had more time to edit these days so as to do that. I'm not sure I would remove Massad's view from here completely, but a quick reference to it and a link to Israeli cuisine where the idea could be expanded upon further, as it applies to other foods as well, would be an improvement I think. Tiamuttalk 17:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli salad is distinct from Arab salad

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In Israel, the vegetables are not finely chopped and onion is added, peppers are sometimes also added (bell pepper usually at morning and chili peppers while eating a grilled meat). Vinegar made of red wine, pomegranate or date (depending on which region you live) sometimes replaces the Lemon Juice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.221.237 (talk) 16:08, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And yet Israelis refer to the food as "Arab Salad". "Israeli Salad" is an American expression, probably because the food was first popularized in America by Israelis. It's a bit similar to "French Fries" (that expression is not used in France). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drsruli (talk • contribs) 00:05, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, Israelis refer to this as Israeli Salad. When served in an Arab restaurant, seasoned in a particular manner, and diced finely (as opposed to bigger cubes) it is called Arab salad - see hewiki.Icewhiz (talk) 18:38, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Both "Arab Salad" and "Israeli Salad" are copies of Shirazi Salad. Secondly, the vegetables in "Arab/Israeli Salad" are finely chopped (I just watched two videos of an Arab and Israeli chopping it and they both said to finely chop it", and it doesn't matter if it is or isn't finely chopped because it's CULTURAL APPROPRIATION. Sickofthisbs (talk) 02:08, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 October 2017

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This is Shirazi Salad that originally was made in Iran 2001:56A:F6B6:6100:3005:74BA:B936:192D (talk) 03:06, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 04:37, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Propaganda

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Gil Hovav, Israeli food editor and chef, as History. negation of israel culture, as if it was palestinian. No, there is lot of diced salad, it doesnt mean it's the same salad. Some honest people here? Or everyone is terrorized or ignorant? --Laseitainravi (talk) 22:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This whole article must be removed, it is cultural appropriation and cultural theft

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There is no such thing as "Israeli salad". This salad is a copy of the famous and historical Shirazi Salad that comes from Iran.

If UAE decided to one day culturally appropriate Pizza and call it "Arab Pizza", it'd be equally absurd as "Israeli Salad". Do you understand?

Also, watch this and go to 03:20 to find out who made this article. https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=201&v=4xl30Re1EUI&

Please provide references to reliable sources that support your assertions. Similar dishes can have different names and constitute discrete topics on Wikipedia. This is commonplace. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:27, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Chopped salads made with tomatoes and cucumbers are a relatively modern innovation, emerging throughout the Levant and the Middle East including Iran in the late 19th century. Tomatoes are not long-standing culinary ingredients in any of these countries or cultures. Tomatoes as food emerged in southern Mexico about 1500 years ago and they were unknown in this region of the world until modern times. There is no evidence that anyone appropriated anything, but rather that this is a type of salad that became popular almost simultaneously in many countries in that region within the last 150 years as tomatoes became popular in those countries. Nobody is arguing that tomato dishes worldwide are cultural appropriation from Mexican cuisine. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:42, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of removing it, we should "teach the controversy" regarding the dish's origins.FrankForAllAndBirds (talk) 13:00, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 December 2024

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You should remove this entire section "In an interview with the BBC, Israeli culinary journalist Gil Hovav said that the Israeli salad is in fact a Palestinian Arab salad.[7] The idea that what is known in New York delis as "Israeli salad" stems from a Palestinian rural salad is agreed on by Joseph Massad, a Palestinian professor of Arab Politics at Columbia University, as an example of the appropriation of Palestinian and Syrian foods such as hummus, falafel, and tabbouleh by Israel as "national dishes".[8]" Jewish immigrants to Israel in the late 19th century adopted the salad and made it a staple of Israeli cuisine. Palestine was not a country until 1988. 168.200.6.3 (talk) 21:59, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He appears to have been talking about the ethnic group, not the country. Hence "Palestinian Arab". Sumanuil. (talk to me) 22:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: this is neither an uncontroversial improvement nor one that is already supported by a consensus (see per WP:EDITXY for more information of what an uncontroversial improvement is). M.Bitton (talk) 11:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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