Talk:Ivor Novello

Old comment

Was it the Prime Minister or a different person also named Winston Churchill who Novello slept with? Apparently, there was a different person with that name, and a few sources say it was him and not Sir Winston.

Ewan MacColl

Someone wrote this:
"Ewan MacColl's song Ivor contrasts the supposedly favourable treatment of Novello with the harsher experience of ordinary prisoners." Is this true? What is the source? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Here are the lyrics: http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/song-midis/pdf/Ivor-lyrics.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1981Marcus (talk • contribs) 15:17, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I put the sentence in the Personal section. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:04, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Taken up

What is meant by "he was taken up by ... Marsh". A mentoring relationship, or something else? -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:06, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I rather think Eddy Marsh was one of those confirmed bachelors whose carnal instincts are never put into practice. He certainly seem to surround himself with attractive young men, not all of them conspicuously heterosexual, but I have not seen it stated anywhere that the bedroom played any part in his relationships. He certainly was a mentor, and a notable one, whatever else he was or wasn't. Tim riley (talk) 19:18, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I tried to clarify this. See what you think. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:34, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

That is indupitably clarified, and decidedly improved thereby. You will rejoice to note that I substituted "received a rapturous ovation on his first entrance" for my earlier draft, "he got a warm hand on his entrance." Tim riley (talk) 22:38, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

LOL! -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:21, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Pub

There's a Wetherspoons pub on Cowbridge Road in Cardiff named the Ivor Davies, which uses a picture of him for its sign. It seems trivial but a similar note is made about a pub in the article about Larry Grayson. DewiMR (talk) 20:12, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

If there's a newspaper article about it, you can mention it. See WP:V. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:57, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Bobbie Andrews

The dates given for Bobbie Andrews on this page (1916-1951) do not match the dates on the Robert (Bobbie) Andrews page of 1895-1976. I've never edited a Wikipedia page so could someone else please look into this and sdo any changes they feel appropriate. Thanks 2.103.103.170 (talk) 20:33, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

There is no error. The dates in the infobox state the length of the relationship between Novello and Andrews and not Andrews' birth and death dates. Hope this helps.FruitMonkey (talk) 21:59, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, must pay more attention in future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.102.71.208 (talk) 17:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Half Italian?

Was his mother Italian? Valetude (talk) 09:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Not from the biography: "Born Clara Novello Davies, of pure Welsh stock (having been christened Clara Novello by her music-loving father, Jacob Davies, after her godmother, the famous Italian singer). FruitMonkey (talk) 18:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Dates

Hi, In the opening paragraph it states 'The lodger' as being 1927, later in the article it says 1926. It may well be that both are right, but refer to different things? PeterM88 (talk) 17:33, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I have corrected the date to 1927. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Birthplace address

I'm surprised that the address of Novello's birthplace, at "Llywn yr Eos", Cowbridge Road East, is considered "too specific for encyclopedia". I'd have thought that was a basic fact. After all, Cardiff is quite a large city, not a tiny village, with many different areas and districts. If we compare with, for example, Dylan Thomas, Arthur Machen, Idris Davies or Harry Secombe, perhaps the address is best added to the picture caption. I'd agree that a source would be useful (although I don't see one in those other articles). At the moment the source for his birth in Cardiff is given by the ODNB biog, which seems to be a subscription site and so hidden. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

But the plot thickens. The geograph image here verifies that the house with the plaque, on Cowbridge Road East, was indeed his brithplace. The property he then moved to, at 11 Cathedral Road, was sold in January 2013 for close to £350,000: [1] Martinevans123 (talk) 17:52, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Here are some sources for his birthplace address: [2], [3], [4]. "Llywn yr Eos" translates as "Grove of the Nightingale". No. 95, Cowbridge Road: [5] is the number. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:35, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's important information about Novello's life or career. Wikipedia is not a travel guide. Instead of WP:Edit warring, you should have waited to add back the information until you gained a WP:Consensus by discussion, pursuant to the WP:BRD rule. But I've decided not to escalate the argument, and I added the BBC ref. Do you have any interest in this article, or did you stop by just to force this information into it? -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Ssilvers, adding this information doesn't actually contribute to Novello's career, and certainly not his life. I've read it extensively and it's clear that it's starting to look very much like a travel guide. The alternative might be to present the information differently and give it an alternate section. I agree that getting into an WP:Edit war wouldn't be ideal, why not introduce the same method as that of Dylan Thomas, Arthur Machen, Idris Davies or Harry Secombe, with the caption to the photo, as described earlier ? Being too "specific" is odd considernig the size of Cardiff, but oh well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chewbakadog (talk • contribs) 04:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Apologies, but I thought all articles were free for anyone to edit? What's all this about "edit warring" and "stopping by just to force this information into it"? Why do you think it's "an argument"? You reverted me once and asked me to use the Talk Page, which is what I've done. I think your reaction is quite over-the-top. I'm quite happy to abide by consensus. But your opinion about birthplace address is just an opinion, and not based on any policy I can find. User:Chewbakadog makes a sound suggestion for compromise. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Editor objection seems to be that including Novello's place of birth is unnecessary trivia. I was unable to find a relevant MOS guideline. However, several Featured articles include such detail in the body text i.e. Joseph Barbera, Charles Darwin, Lady Gregory Augusta, Ian Fleming, Edgar Allan Poe etc., so noting the subject's full place of birth satisfies the FA criteria. The house in which Novello was born is notable enough to have a blue plaque, to have been noted by several reliable sources, and seems to me notable enough to be included in his biography. Are there any other objections to including the full address? Daicaregos (talk) 08:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes. It is not customary to list the full address. There are far more articles without the full address at WP:FA. A similar example would be Noël Coward. But what I was objecting to was that this drive-by editor, who has never previously shown any interest in this article, knowing that another editor objected to adding the information, added it back in violation ow WP:BRD. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:23, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

In the FA biographical articles I have been closely involved with we have mentioned the address when it is of particular significance (e.g. we mention John Barbirolli's because we also say that he reckoned his place of birth qualified him as a cockney) but have generally otherwise omitted it: e.g. for JB's fellow musicians Adrian Boult, Thomas Beecham, Benjamin Britten, Frederick Delius et al. On the whole I think is a sensible policy: it is our job as editors to home in on the essentials, and to my mind the precise address of a subject's birth is usually inessential. To say in the main text that Delius was from Bradford (a larger town than Cardiff if I correctly read their WP articles) has seemed sufficient to PR and FAC reviewers, and to my mind it suffices, mutatis mutandis, for Novello. It is reasonable to include the address in the caption of the picture of the building, but as Novello was British we should use British English rather than the Americanism "on Such-and-Such Street". As to the BRD aspect, I think Ssilvers's point is correct. – Tim riley talk 15:48, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess being born anywhere in Cardiff qualifies one as a Taffy. But being born a few hundred yards from the banks of the river might qualify one slightly more. W. H. Davies' birthplace address gets a mention as there is a story behind it. But generally, I think the location of any blue plaque deserves a mention somewhere in the article. The image caption seems quite an appropriate place. I rather resent being told that I'm passing by an article just to "force something" into it. Editors sometimes get very protective of articles to which they have contributed most. But thanks for such a warm welcome. Another one off the watchlist, I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I really don't know what you are talking about. The name of the street on which Novello was born (the location of the blue plaque, is stated in the article, in the caption of the image of the house. Please stop edit warring, and please read WP:OVERLINK. As a longstanding editor here, you should understand it. If you resent being called out on it, then don't do it. Editors sometimes behave badly with respect to articles where they have contributed least, which is rather more surprising! -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:03, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I think your notion of "edit warring" is others adding things you don't like. Good luck with your article, Ssilvers. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:12, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Simpler syntax

Why is "He was born into a musical family, and his first successes were as a songwriter" preferable to "Born into a musical family, his first successes were as a songwriter"? Which syntax is actually "simpler" here? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:41, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Because WP:BROKE. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:45, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Because WP:OWN. -- Martinevans123 (talk) 20:47, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I simply disagree with your change and have reverted it. Per WP:BRD, if you want to change it, then build a consensus here to do so. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:05, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Had you considered nominating your article for WP:GA? You might find a range of views on both its content and style. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:10, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

It's not "my" article. I never nominate articles for GA unless I possess books about the subject. In this case, I do not, so I am not, in my opinion, well-positioned to improve the article much beyond where it is now. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:12, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I think we'd have to agree on your opinion there. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

This is basic copy editing, nothing to do with WP:BROKE. "Born into a musical family, his first successes were as a songwriter"? improves the article's readability and, therefore, should be re-instated. Daicaregos (talk) 10:30, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

I disagree. Both sentences are clear enough to the average reader. But the point can be made that in the "Born into a musical family, his first successes were as a songwriter" version, the subject of the sentence is "his first successes" - so the subordinate clause "Born into . . ." refers to those successes and not to Mr.Novello. Grammatically, I prefer the more direct version.2600:1700:77C1:1E70:147F:6126:25AE:B8A0 (talk) 19:59, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

MOS:OVERLINK

[Note to anyone joining the discussion: the following concerns the reference to Novello's nationality in the Lead sentence, and whether or not to link it as follows: Welsh peopleWelsh. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:30, 15 June 2017 (UTC)]

Also, MOS:OVERLINK says not to link common English words like Welsh or Wales. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:52, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

The word Welsh doesn't appear in this sentence. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:57, 14 June 2017 (UTC) .. but thanks for breaking into a new section after I made this comment, which originally referred to the sentence discussed above.

You have never understood MOS:OVERLINK. In the past, you have tried to link such common words and place names as London and Hollywood. You should really read the guideline. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:04, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Maybe this is why we have Welsh linked in the lede section of Harry Secombe, Max Boyce, Shirley Bassey, Tom Jones, etc. etc. etc...... The "last good version" of this article seems always to be yours, doesn't it? Martinevans123 (talk)

I see that another experienced editor reverted your change. It is a shame if the articles you mentioned are overlinked. The purpose of blue-linking is to help people find out important information related to the article that they are reading. No one goes to the Novello article to find out basic facts about Welsh people. Instead, as MOS:OVERLINK explains, it merely encourages people to click away from your article to other articles that are not "likely to aid the reader's understanding significantly." -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:22, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to see your evidence that "No one goes to the Novello article to find out basic facts about Welsh people". Why would clicking away not "aid the reader's understanding significantly"? How can you possibly know? How can WP:OVERLINK possibly know? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:26, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Are you asking a serious question? If you would like to have a serious discussion about why overlinking is not helpful, and why the guideline discourages the linking of common words and place names, I would be willing to do so, but I would not be able to add much that is not already mentioned at MOS:OVERLINK. Briefly, if someone wants to find out basic information about Welsh people, they would likely search for Wales or Welsh people, or Welsh language or some other article far more directly relevant. People coming to this article want to know about Novello's life and career. It is helpful to them to link his works (shows, movies, etc.) and the names of people important to his career, for example. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:36, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I suspect that many of the readers who come to this article will not know what Welsh means. If you have any actual evidence that they do, or how many of them do, I'd love to see it. Meanwhile, I see MOS:OVERLINK as a style guideline, the interpretation of which may vary on a case-by-case basis. Why do you assume I've not read this? Many times over. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:46, 14 June 2017 (UTC) ... apparently this guy was a "Russian" (whatever that means)...

The guideline specifically states: "Unless a term is particularly relevant to the context in the article, the following are not usually linked: ... nationalities...." In a bio article, where the Lead nearly always identifies the person's nationality, that identification is background. It is not "particularly relevant to the context in the article". In unusual cases, for example where someone defects to another country, and that is why they are notable, or if the person is best known for something particularly associated with their nationality, it could be "particularly relevant." See my previous comment for more. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:10, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I reverted the edit as in my opinion the Welsh people link was not relevant to the context of the article and so was Overlink. Jack1956 (talk) 22:34, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

MOS:OVERLINK "is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow..." and I agree with Ssilvers's statements regarding the proper application of the standard. Somambulant1 (talk) 22:40, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry guys, I've been out of the game a while having basically retired from Wikipedia this year, but this argument doesn't hold water. Wales should be linked at least once in this article. Links should take people to articles where they may think "I don't understand that statement". So if there's a football article that states John Charles trialled as a central defender before switching to midfield, then central defender should be linked to allow the common reader the chance to quickly link to what that role was. Many, many people do not know what Wales or Welsh is. It will confuse some who do not understand it is a country in the UK, The same way that people may not know that Andorra is a country and principality bordered by Spain and France. If I read an article about Novello and it said he was born to Andorran parents, I would expect Andorra to be linked so I can find the article quickly. It's not common knowledge to the majority of readers so IMO - link it. FruitMonkey (talk) 23:51, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

With a name like Novello I suspect many new readers would assume he was Italian. I don't see how Welsh is "not relevant" to an understanding of Novello's life. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:44, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree that it is relevant to state his nationality, as we do in the article, but that it is not helpful, in the context of the biography, to link his nationality to Welsh people, because this article is about Novello's life and work, not primarily about his ancestry or other particular connection to his heritage. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:33, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Have to agree with Martinevans123 and FruitMonkey here. Welsh or Wales should be linked on this article. The best place to do so is on its first use i.e. "Ivor Novello... was a Welsh composer and actor...". Daicaregos (talk)

Ssilvers alerted me to this discussion. My feelings are:

*Who doesn't know where Wales is? And if they don't, why don't they either go back to grade school or type five characters into the search box at the top, which would take all of five seconds?

*The lead is already heaving with (more important, useful) links, and there's a general principle of avoiding unnecessary dilution of them.

*What useful information would the reader gain by diverting to the article on "Welsh people" or "Wales"? These articles are very very broad: "It is bordered by England to the east, the Irish Sea to the north and west, and the Bristol Channel to the south. It had a population in 2011 of 3,063,456 and has a total area of 20,779 km2 (8,023 sq mi). Wales has over 1,680 miles (2,700 km) of coastline and is largely mountainous, with its higher peaks in the north and central areas, including ...". Really? We want to know about Ivor Novello, please. Linking is most useful to readers when it's narrowly focused in ways that are more relevant to the anchor article. Here's a better idea: link to Music of Wales down the bottom under "See also"; don't pipe it to "Wales", or you'll lose 90% of your clicks because they'll think it's useless. There's even "Music of Cardiff", but I believe the former would be preferable.

*His place of birth, "Cardiff", is linked in the first main section; that's a little easier to justify. I doubt that the current linking of "Glamorgan" is justified. Is there some extra cultural significance to Glamorgan? Better to focus readers on the blue "Cardiff" alone, I'd say. From there, they can link to Glamorgan if they really feel the urge. Tony (talk) 15:46, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to post in this little discussion. Do you have any views on Canvassing? Daicaregos (talk) 16:58, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

I do: canvassing should be interpreted case by case according to a number of issues. Here, I immediately declared that I was asked to comment here. What more do you want? Tony (talk) 07:15, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

I was also interested in your view on those who canvass inappropriately, and what action should be taken against them. Daicaregos (talk) 07:23, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

A link to Welsh composer might be ideal. But there isn't yet any article with that title. Unlike List of English Baroque composers, for example. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:22, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

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