Talk:Izium mass graves

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The hand with the yellow and blue bracelet[edit]

The body has been identified. See [ https://m.censor.net/en/photo_news/3368235/an_arm_with_blue_and_yellow_bracelets_from_a_burial_in_izyum_a_fragment_of_military_man_from_nikopol here]. Yug (talk) 🐲 17:53, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 September 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: It looks like there is no consensus to move this article at this time. I recognize that this is still a reasonably recent event, and that new data may come to light. I invite interested parties to reconsider a move request at that time. I concur with User:Robertsky's previous assessment, and note war is atrocious. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Izium mass graves → Izium massacre – sources are already calling this a massacre and likening it to the Bucha massacre, and sadly it already looks like an even bigger scale. Each mass grave of 10-25 people with one 440 people; the name "mass graves" suggests more of an archaeological discovery than a macabre mass-crime scene Abcmaxx (talk) 18:52, 16 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 04:16, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agree - mass graves refers to sickness and plagues along with massacres, whereas massacre refers to the intentional killing of people. This BBC article, this Guardian article, and this LA Times article all state that the civilian deaths were caused by Russian soldiers, by definition making it a massacre. Jebiguess (talk) 19:20, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I was thinking of proposing this myself. Do we need sources for the name change, though? NytharT.C 20:26, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    If the argument is based on WP:COMMONNAME then yes. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 22:53, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - No doubt it's a massacre. Horrific war crime. CR-1-AB (talk) 20:46, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Sad and horrific. I have no doubt. A massacre clearly happened. CastleFort1 (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Euromaidan Press is referring to the event as a massacre.[1] CJ-Moki (talk) 22:33, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A comment: While I think this looks like very clear evidence of a massacre happening, much of the news about this event is still developing and will likely have been almost fully clarified in a day or two, so I guess that oppose for now? Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 23:02, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I created the article when it was breaking news as Izyum massacre. I then moved it Izium massacre as per Ukrainian transliteration. Someone thought at that point it was too early to call it as such and moved the article and changed the infobox to Izium mass grave at which point I moved it to the plural Izium mass graves as there were clearly multiple graves. However I think more time should have been given before moving as it was pretty clear it would follow a similar pattern to the Bucha massacre, which was the article I took as a rough template of what this article should look like. Abcmaxx (talk) 23:08, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose for the time being. While it is by now clear that torture occurred under the Russian occupation in Izium, and multiple were killed as a result, it is not yet clear how many were killed as a result of torture or other violence on the Russian behalf, and how many were killed as a result of fighting and shelling. It is also worth noting that Ukrainian news sources may not be the best thing to use here, as they are (quite fairly) emotionally-charged.
If further information comes forwards indicating a significant number of people were massacred in Izium rather than tortured or shelled to death (both of which are occurring in numerous other cities), or if western news sources adopt the term "massacre" as Ukrainian sources have done, I am completely open to and supportive of changing the title.
Mupper-san (talk) 00:00, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mupper-san, unless you have evidence that all journalists working for Ukrainian news sources are unreliable on this subject, your comment could be reasonably perceived as reflecting a colonial or racist attitude to Ukraine. At best, it is an attempt to reinforce WP:BIAS against the Ukrainian sources who are best positioned to understand the subject. I’m sure that’s not your intention, so I suggest you re-examine and retract the remark. —Michael Z. 14:45, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mzajac I'm not at all saying that Ukrainian sources are unreliable, I'm simply saying that they quite understandably are going to be calling it a massacre before the majority of English language sources do due to the fact that this is their people, and there is to an extent an emotional investment here. I do not feel that it should be completely discounted, of course, but I think that it doesn't yet represent the position of news on a global level. I apologise that my remarks can be interpreted as biased against Ukrainians - in no way did I mean to imply such a thing, it's simply that I feel sources which are from tertiary nations may be closer to representing the common name used in the Anglophone world.
Mupper-san (talk) 15:12, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mupper-san, you’re saying it nicely, but your point is still that Ukrainian journalists are unreliable and unprofessional because you personally have a hunch that they are unable to control their emotions. Also implying that these atrocities are really not something to be upset about because, in your opinion, journalists coming from anywhere else are not emotionally affected by them. With respect, it is blatantly pushing your unsupported opinions against a group based on nationality. That is called prejudice. —Michael Z. 16:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we should check reporters’ bylines for Slavic sounding surnames, hmm? Comb the internet for their bios and social media profiles to confirm their place of birth, passport, parents’ and spouses ancestry? Anti-Ukrainian discrimination is unacceptable, whether to small or large degree. —Michael Z. 16:39, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's not at all the case. I think that whenever an event happens, it is better to rely on sources from a tertiary perspective. Assume good faith - good friends of mine have become refugees from Ukraine because of Russian aggression, and I have donated real, actual money to the Ukrainian army. Accusing me of anti-Ukrainian prejudice is not only completely incorrect, but deeply offensive.
Mupper-san (talk) 17:03, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am backing Mupper-san's position here. Just because we disagree with the proposal to change the title doesn't mean we are 'anti-Ukrainian'. Both of us have, in fact, taken the liberty to express our personal opinions in expressing solidarity with Ukrainian civilians and condemning Russian war crimes - but that personal opinions should not determine how we write about it on Wikipedia per all the relevant policies. (I think the only actual pro-Russian user on this talk page is Radosveta Evlog2, who is most likely an SPA). Assuming good faith on the part of users we disagree with but who do appear to be following Wikipedia's rules is important. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:50, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the above discussion about Ukrainian journalists and colonial or racist attitude to Ukraine. I think the point made by Mupper-san is commonsensical and has nothing to do with racism. To put it simply: if England will ever enter into a war with Scotland, I will not trust the BBC - the beacon of independent hiqh-quality journalism. I will read and possibly also quote their reports, but I will not expect them to be fully reliable. When you are in a war, there are things that inevitably look more important to you than journalist deontology (or Wikipedia's pillars, by the way). Am I racist towards the English people? Nonsense. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:20, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support “mass graves” was the initial headlines when these were first discovered but now it’s clear that these were people who were tortured and massacred. Current title is at very least outdated. Volunteer Marek 12:50, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's a massacre done by the Russian military, simple as that. Dawsongfg (talk) 22:25, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Very few sources are using the term massacre, it's unclear how many of the bodies were of people deliberately killed by the Russians versus how many died of shelling, starvation and disease. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:11, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also note the difference with Bucha (where sources almost immediately described it as a massacre) versus Izium (where almost no sources have described it as such, despite several days having passed). Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:14, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly this is how it is: "Izium mass graves is insensitive" "Izium massacre is inclined to morality"
You'll get that especially in these types of articles. Dawsongfg (talk) 23:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article also talks about things other than mass graves, like very behind. Dawsongfg (talk) 23:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Zabrisky, Zarina (September 16, 2022). "Izium Massacre: mass graves with over 400 bodies discovered". Euromaidan Press.
  • Support per above.--BrayLockBoy (talk) 14:10, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and this per WP:COMMONNAME. There's no doubt any more amongst the reliable sources.Knižnik (talk) 15:04, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah no, I can't find many sources using the title "Izium massacre." Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 19:46, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    A source mentioned below, https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-izyum-russia-mass-graves-torture/, uses the term 'mass graves', but not 'massacre'. Moreover, as with examples in many other sources, one person is said to have died due to shelling rather than execution. It isn't black-and-white. The term 'massacre' assumes cause and intentionality that 'mass graves' does not. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:04, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know which 'reliable sources' Knižnik is talking about, but I checked every single source currently used in the article, and not a single one of them uses the word 'massacre'. Instead, they all say either 'mass graves' or 'mass burial site'. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the title should stay as it is. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Mupper-san (ongoing investigation, see also WP:CRYSTAL), WP:PRECISE (many deaths do not appear to be executions, we shouldn't generalise/jump to conclusions), WP:COMMONNAME (RS do not call this a 'massacre', all sources cited in this article only say 'mass graves' or 'mass burial site'), WP:OR/WP:SYNTH (if RS don't call it a 'massacre', Wikipedia can't conclude that it was a 'massacre'), and WP:NDESC/WP:NPOVTITLE ('massacre' is a judgemental description favouring one point of view and discrediting the other; unless the conditions for WP:POVNAME can be satisfied, we should exercise caution and choose a neutral title, which in this case means maintaining 'Izium mass graves'. WP:MILNAME also states: "Non-neutral terms such as "attack", "slaughter", "massacre", or "raid" should be used with care."). Investigations are ongoing, it's too early to conclude what exactly has happened. Although there is clear evidence that some people were executed, we should not generalise, nor jump to conclusions. Especially if some of the people were killed by shelling, airstrikes, malnutrition or lack of medicine, as other evidence indicates, these are not all targeted killings carried out at the same time. More likely, this was a dumping ground for people who died or were killed for all sorts of reasons, and perhaps at different times throughout the occupation, rather than in a single intentional massacre. "Mass graves" is an uncontroversial title (although singular may be better than plural, I have no preference), it covers the topic better than "massacre", because the latter is assuming a conclusion that cannot yet be drawn, and has some evidence going against it. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:30, 17 September 2022 (UTC) PS: I updated my arguments as a result of the exchanges below. There are many more reasons to oppose a move that I initially thought 2 days ago. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:17, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support based on the WP:TITLE criterion of naturalness per the sources currently used in the article. The fact that a lot of people were buried together is not what is most notable; what is most notable is that a high number of civilians and POWs were killed in violent ways in a 6-month (maybe shorter) event.
    The meaning of massacre is not limited to a single day (the Sétif_massacre took place over about six weeks), so the time length of the event is only a weak argument against massacre; it's rather an argument in favour of massacres as a possible future title once date estimates are available. Boud (talk) 20:00, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • support a true massacre.
    Panam2014 (talk) 01:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Please clarify what you mean by this. Simply saying "a true massacre" can mean multiple things, and is generally unconstructive without further evidence to back it up. Additionally, please note that simply saying you feel that a massacre has occurred is both a violation of WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH.
    Mupper-san (talk) 02:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The article est multisourced. Panam2014 (talk) 18:06, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    None of the sources mentions 'massacre', so that's irrelevant. They do, however, mention 'mass graves'. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:58, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It is clear it was a massacre, we should call it what it is—blindlynx 18:58, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    An examination of the bodies is still ongoing so I think we would need to wait for that to be completed first Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 19:55, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    As Dunutubble says, it's not clear yet. Wikipedians are not in the position to call this a 'massacre' if reliable sources do not. All sources cited in this article say 'mass graves' or 'mass burial site', not 'massacre'. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This article is more about the event as a whole than just the graves, i don't object to 'Izium mass killings' as a purely descriptive title if that's better in the short term—blindlynx 21:55, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
One of the problems is that this probably wasn't a single 'event', but rather a series of events. These people seem to have been buried at various different times and have been killed or have died by various different circumstances. And even though 'killings' is a more neutral term, someone who died due to starvation, lack of medicine or shelling isn't really a 'killing' of that person, I think. The evidence recovered thus far is just quite complex and ambiguous to be summarised with a single word describing a particular action. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:08, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See Sétif and Guelma massacre - a massacre 'event' that took place over about six weeks. Boud (talk) 21:04, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Whether the 1945 events in Sétif and Guelma should be called a 'massacre' or something else is also disputed, both in the article itself (Sétif and Guelma massacre#Semantic debates: genocide, massacre or politicide) and on the talk page (returning topic). It's not clear to me why the current title ('Sétif and Guelma massacre') has stuck (perhaps per WP:COMMONNAME?), but the length of the event does not seem to be an objection that anyone has voiced.
What the article does say, however, is that the nature of the events in Guelma is disputed (namely 'genocide', 'massacre' or 'politicide'), and that they are distinguished from those at Sétif, so this is probably best understood as a series of events, not all of which are necessarily classified the same. So, you could be right that the length of an event doesn't make calling them a 'massacre' impossible. But my point, that a series of events in which people 'at various different times have been killed or have died by various different circumstances' shouldn't be 'summarised with a single word describing a particular action', still stands. In fact, the semantic debate about Guelma supports my urge for caution.
Finally, the article states: 'The term massacre is, according to Jacques Sémelin a more useful methodological tool for historians to study an event whose definition is debated.' This suggests the term has some kind of 'neutrality', but there are good reasons for not accepting it as such. For example, at Talk:1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners#Title, Wikipedians agreed that "massacre" and "slaughter" are POV words, and "execution" is NPOV, therefore the title was changed from "1988 massacre of Iranian prisoners" to "1988 executions of Iranian prisoners" on 19 February 2007. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:50, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - the situation is now being compared to the Bucha massacre, with several reports saying the number of vitims might be higher. Several sources call it a massacre: 1 2 3 4 5 6 etc. BeŻet (talk) 20:13, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - the topic isn't merely about graves but also about killing of those people, I would be also fine with something like Izium killings.--Staberinde (talk) 19:27, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Wikipedia should not be a vehicle for propaganda. Things have been getting better here as the hysteria of the first couple of months died down, despite the omnipresence of NAFO-style editor warriors. We should not repeat the mistakes of Bucha. Even western sources are being more cautious now. Radosveta Evlog2 (talk) 09:35, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The Kyiv Independent: 23 Sep 2022 - A total of 436 bodies have been exhumed, with most of them containing signs of "violent death" and 30 of them "traces of torture," he said. The governor said there were bodies with ropes tied around their necks, tied hands, broken limbs, or gunshot wounds. Several men's genitals were cut off, he added. Most of the exhumed bodies belonged to civilians, while 21 were military personnel, according to Synyehubov. Under the naturalness criterion, it's clear that this was a massacre (spread over several months) in the plain English sense of the term. It wasn't just people who died and happened to have been buried together. No need for propaganda or hysteria, just reliable sources. Boud (talk) 20:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Some of the commenters here don't seem to realize that a "massacre" is the killing of a large number of people (read our massacre article or search for its definition). They seem to think the word "massacre" is not neutral and needs reliable sourcing to be included. NytharT.C 20:44, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Note that Radosveta Evlog2 is a brand new SPA account with less than 20 edits. Volunteer Marek 17:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Marek has a point, Radosveta Evlog2 looks like a pro-Russian SPA. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:16, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've gone ahead and moved the article since this is pretty much in WP:SNOW territory. Volunteer Marek 06:06, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Note: @Volunteer Marek As one who is WP:INVOLVED, you should not have done the move to Izium Massacre. That title was not discussed as well. I have reverted the move. Uninvolved editor should conduct the closure. – robertsky (talk) 09:41, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note yourself, I'm not going to undo your revert of my move, but for you to do a non-admin closure of this discussion with "no consensus" is simply ridiculous. This is a WP:SNOW in support. There are fourteen !votes "support", one "weak oppose" and one "oppose" from a normal account and then another "oppose" from a WP:SPA account with like five edits. So 14 vs 2 (more like 1.5) in favor of "massacre". Please don't do any more RfC closures. This is a really bad attempt at closing this here. Volunteer Marek 17:37, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For transparency, robertsky attempted to close the discussion as "no consensus" (lol) here [1]. Their rationale is there as well. I undid it. Volunteer Marek 17:46, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For transparency, I closed it as such because 1, it is not WP:SNOW when there are three opposes, no matter if it is stated as weak or not. 2, consensus is not WP:VOTE. As stated in my close, the three who opposed are compelling in their argument. While the rest? What's the basis other than 'it is clear'? – robertsky (talk) 04:14, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Many of the support votes are, to be quite frank, blatant violations of WP:TALKPOV. I oppose non-admin closure, but I do not think you can equally count at least some of the votes when they simply say "I like this". Furthermore, note WP:TALKDD - neither you nor I, nor most of the people who have been involved in this discussion, should be changing or reverting changes on the title.
Mupper-san (talk) 18:07, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thing is, when it's so skewed (14 support and 2 opposes), it doesn't make much difference if one or two of the support votes are superficial. BTW, since your own oppose was a "weak" one, have you had the time to take a look at the sources given above by User:BeŻet? Volunteer Marek 18:28, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm opposed to basing them off of BeŻet's sources as none of them are English-language, and I feel that we should generally base our title off of the English language sources. My oppose is a weak one as I do believe it's a massacre, but that's based off of my own feelings rather than hard evidence in favour, and I think we should wait for the MES to release its findings before changing the name.
Mupper-san (talk) 18:35, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A massacre is a massacre. Robertsky's move, citing "incorrect title" and closing a discussion with 14-3 as "no consensus" appears to be entering POV territory. Robertsky, if you think the title is incorrect, discuss it. NytharT.C 19:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed a massacre is a massacre, but the extent to which the mass graves includes those who were massacred and tortured to death, to the extent that it includes those who were killed as part of Russia's capture of Izium, and to the extent that it includes people who died during the occupation from things such as food insecurity and other such means is, as of now, still unknown - and according to AP (provided by ABC) and The Kyiv Independent, around thirty of the 436 show signs of torture. It's not yet clear what the majority died from - it could be from starvation or disease, which are equally terrible, but not a massacre - or it could be a massacre.
However, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and it is too soon for us, in my view, to say that the majority of them were killed in a massacre, or massacres. As noted by OHCHR spokesperson Liz Throssell on mass graves in Mariupol, "It was really a case of looking at whether people had been killed or had died of natural causes because they weren’t able to get treatment[.]" This could very well be the case here, as well, and we are receiving conflicting reports (such as Synyehubov claiming that "99%" of the bodies were civilians showing signs of torture versus the current claims that 30 of the 436, or only 6.8%, exhumed showed signs of torture), so I do not think that we can rely on them over the currently-ongoing investigation.
Mupper-san (talk) 19:53, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Mupper-san makes very good points. There are still conflicting reports about how the people found in the mass graves died, and we already have evidence that a significant number of them were not executed but died to other causes. The word 'massacre' just erases every nuance, as well as introducing accusation and condemnation. We would do well to wait for the results of the ongoing investigations.
Moving page titles is not done purely based on 'votes' (WP:DEM), but on the merits of the arguments, which means they must be based on Wikipedia's policies. The majority doesn't simply 'win' the discussion, especially if their arguments do not align with Wikipedia's policies. A lot of these 'votes' are very much based on emotion, people saying 'it's clearly a massacre to me', without referring to any Wikipedia policy, and therefore having no significance. (Equally, Radosveta Evlog2 is most likely an pro-Russian SPA who just came here to 'vote' oppose based on emotional arguments alone, and is probably WP:NOTHERE to help build Wikipedia according to its policies). Invoking WP:SNOW based purely on 'votes' alone rather than policy-based arguments was a regrettable error. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:45, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nythar do not put words into my mouth. I didn't say it is 'incorrect title'. – robertsky (talk) 04:15, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My close is not a supervote if you inclined to think so, but on basis of the strength of the arugments. – robertsky (talk) 04:23, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You said in your edit summary here "incorrect title". NytharT.C 08:17, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nythar that was about Izium Massacre, which is not the title discussed here: Izium massacre. Mind the difference. – robertsky (talk) 08:27, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I didn't notice that. NytharT.C 08:29, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist note: This normally should go should go to the WP:MRV, but since Volunteer Marek unilaterally reopened the discussion, I am inclined to let it be and let the conversation continue. My initial closing statement was "The result of the move request was: no consensus. While there are many here supporting the move, the points put forth by the opposition here are compelling, weighing on WP:COMMONNAME(→), WP:RS(→), to a smaller extent: WP:CRYSTAL(→) and WP:POVNAME(→). As with inconclusive outcomes, do take the time to gather more/new arguments and have fresh discussions sometime down the road to see if the article should move." As with other typical reopening of RM dicussion, other pagemovers/admins are welcomed to close the discussion. – robertsky (talk) 04:23, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Probably this is was massacre, but no reliable source calls it that way (the only exception being Euromaidanpress); they are still calling the subject of this article "Izium (mass) graves". As per WP:RECENT, we'd better take it easy and not rush to conclusions. What about it if at Izium the Russians had set up a burial site for people who were killed elsewhere, in the nearby villages? If that were so, "Izium massacre" would be a hasty original research on our part. I suggest we stick to WP:COMMONNAME, wait for more sources and in the meantime keep the title as it is. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:17, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • but no reliable source calls it This is absolutely falls. See, for example the six sources provided by User:BeŻet. Please do read the discussion when !voting. Volunteer Marek 16:50, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      None of those sources is in English. Please do read WP:CRITERIA when participating in a discussion on an RM. See especially WP:COMMONNAME:

      Wikipedia ... generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources ... A search engine may help to collect this data; when using a search engine, restrict the results to pages written in English

      I published the only reference to an English-speaking source (Euromaidanpress) using "massacre" here above. I think this rules out that "Izium massacre" is the common name. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Gitz is correct; English Wikipedia policies such as WP:RECENT, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA all favour keeping the current name, and not moving it to 'massacre.' Besides, Euromaidanpress is quite a pro-Ukrainian and anti-Russian website, I'm not sure if we can really call it a 'reliable source'. I'm sure its contents are very interesting, but they are not the kind that Wikipedia requires. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:15, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support  1) The subject is not a set of earthworks, but the evidence of atrocity crimes. For those objecting to massacre, consider mass killing, murders, etcetera. 2) For those objecting because you suspect that not every single grave is a victim of mass killing, then tell us how many is the minimum threshold. If only 400, only 100, or only a dozen turn out to be victims of indiscriminate and brutal war crimes, then this is still the result of a massacre by my dictionary’s definition. —Michael Z. 14:55, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The point is not for us to make up our own definitions, that would be WP:OR. Nor should we draw our own conclusions, that would be WP:SYNTH. Only until reliable sources actually overwhelmingly call it a 'massacre', we should do so too per WP:COMMONNAME. There are many other English Wikipedia articles with 'mass grave(s)' in the title, it is perfectly acceptable as a name. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:20, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Comment. As one of participants said, it is still the massacre that is more notable than the burial. No doubts most of the people were murdered by Russian forces and therefore buried in the same place. This is similar to Katyn massacre. My very best wishes (talk) 21:57, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Whether a 'massacre' as such has occurred is yet to be established. The 'burial' as an action is indeed not as important, but that is not the subject of the article: the existence (and subsequent discovery) of mass graves is. In other words, this article is about a site rather than an event. What event(s) happened is still subject to investigation, and Wikipedia is not in a position to rush to any conclusion that reliable sources have not yet reached. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:23, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that sounds reasonable. That was not a single massacre. Perhaps there are better ttles. My very best wishes (talk) 15:54, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: WP:MILNAME states: "Non-neutral terms such as "attack", "slaughter", "massacre", or "raid" should be used with care." It's not saying we can never use the term "massacre", but identifies it as a "non-neutral term" to "be used with care". We should take that into account for our decision. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:11, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

PS: Apart from implying a single event and intentionality by a single party to the conflict, the term "massacre" also carries subjective elements of accusations of immorality against that party, and thereby condemnation by another party. These terms have to be used carefully. (Similarly, what for one party may be the "Fall of Izium" (to the enemy) may be the "Liberation of Izium" (from the enemy) to the other). As human beings we will have the urge to condemn what we see as wrong (and I personally feel a strong urge to condemn every lawless killing that appears to have happened here), but as Wikipedians we must describe the evidence from reliable sources. I think "mass graves" is the best description for now. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:53, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes still we're inclined towards morality more right now Dawsongfg (talk) 23:15, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Calling B.S. That’s a superficial argument attempting to present a false balance, and falls apart under even cursory examination. objectively, only the unilateral illegal military invasion by a dictatorial foreign power for the purpose of destroying the Ukrainian state and nation is occupation. Objectively, only the freeing of democratic Ukraine’s territory and people from occupation by defending forces with a high level of volunteerism is liberation. Seldom has there been a war where this can be more clear than in this one.
The morality of the numerous systematic atrocity crimes committed in the process is equally objectively clear.
It’s not hard to find reliable sources that say so. —Michael Z. 16:22, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As much as I agree with your description of the conflict from the point of view of international law and human rights (e.g. per Legality of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine), the writing we do for Wikipedia (on an article like this) is subject to its own set of policies, including WP:NPOV. Unless conditions such as those stipulated in WP:POVNAME can be fulfilled, or unless we're dealing with relevant quotations, words such as 'massacre', 'liberation' or 'fall' should not be in Wikipedia's military history vocabulary, certainly not in titles. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:28, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I just found out that Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history (at least partially) agrees with me. WP:MILNAME states: "Non-neutral terms such as "attack", "slaughter", "massacre", or "raid" should be used with care." It's not saying we can never use the term "massacre", but identifies it as a "non-neutral term" to "be used with care". We should take that into account for our decision. As an example (that I also mentioned above), at Talk:1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners#Title, Wikipedians agreed that "massacre" and "slaughter" are POV words, and "execution" is NPOV, therefore the title was changed from "1988 massacre of Iranian prisoners" to "1988 executions of Iranian prisoners" on 19 February 2007. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

PPS: I would also be cautious with comparisons with the Bucha massacre, because the circumstances and evidence are quite different. In Bucha, we saw scenes like civilians lying dead on the streets with gunshot wounds in areas previously controlled by Russian forces. These people most probably didn't die to shelling, airstrikes, malnutrition, lack of medicine etc.; it's pretty clear they were killed by Russian soldiers (although not necessarily on the same day). The Izium mass graves are more complicated and ambiguous. Although I personally find it likely that the majority were intentionally killed at the hands of Russian forces, if a significant number were not, I think "massacre" may be a misleading word to describe the whole. I hope that helps explain my hesitation, and why I think we should be careful. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:08, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You do realize that the Russian military held Izium for longer, right? That's how it'd be possible to bury them here. The Russians were in a hurry in Bucha. Dawsongfg (talk) 22:26, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is a valid point. Do we have any satellite imagery of the situation in Izium throughout the occupation? I know there were already pictures of dead civilians in Bucha in March before the massacre was discovered in April; this may have been the case of Izium too. Super Ψ Dro 22:34, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-izyum-russia-mass-graves-torture/ Long enough to torture them, too. Maybe something can be found (even though searching up "izium" leads to news reports and all, but i think there's a twitter post but no idea if it's reliable) Dawsongfg (talk) 23:48, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The CBS News source you refer to uses the term 'mass graves', but not 'massacre'. Hrygory Pryhodko's wife is mentioned as an example of a civilian who died to Russian shelling rather than (torture and) execution. The rest of the article does seem to suggest most other victims were executed after torture, or died because of torture, but not in a single event, but over a period of time. I think this supports my call for caution, because 'massacre' has all these risks of generalisation, inaccuracy, subjective accusation and condemnation etc. that 'mass graves' doesn't have. Nobody really disputes that these are mass graves, but whether there has been a 'massacre' and that this has been inflicted on everyone found in the graves can be, and already has been, contested by reliable sources such as this CBS item. That is not to take away from the tragedy or the atrocities that have - in my mind no doubt - been committed here, but to ensure Wikipedia's accuracy. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:51, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Setif massacre above. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:11, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
An important thing to note is that Sétif and Guelma did still follow a similar style of action as Bucha (including summary executions, and generally "direct" war crimes for lack of any other word off the top of my head). It remains unclear if the majority of people were slaughtered by the Russian forces, or rather killed as a result of shelling and other war crimes which would not necessarily constitute a massacre.
In my view, along with ensuring that we follow the most common name (which is not yet "massacre"), it is important to ensure that we are completely accurate - something which is especially important in a case so crucial as documenting Russia's crimes. It is best, in my view, to wait for a report from an official, government source - the MES, after all, is conducting the forensic investigation, and until they formally state that a massacre has occurred, it would be hasty to say such a thing. Whenever the MES finishes its investigation, if it is found that a massacre occurred, I think everyone in opposition would support it. For now, however, simply using "mass graves" is the most common term and the one which has the most acceptance.
As an addendum, Twitter, as with any social media, is not a source which should be used, unless otherwise noted by an outside source. In this case, such a thing is inappropriate, as there is plenty of buzz about the potential massacre in the news media.
Mupper-san (talk) 01:46, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On your first point, Kharkiv Obl. governor Synyehubov stated here (in the Bloody brutal terror section) that 99% of the bodies found at the site were civilians with signs of torture, which effectively makes this a massacre of civilians. I think the biggest problem with the renaming is that "Izium massacre" doesn't follow WP:COMMONNAME as many sources describe it as mass graves, but the incident is the textbook definition of a massacre, which would fall under the naturalness and precision sections of WP:CRITERIA. Jebiguess (talk) 15:14, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
'which effectively makes this a massacre of civilians.' That's your own conclusion, which violates WP:SYNTH. The source doesn't say 'massacre' and we shouldn't pretend that it does. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:04, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Stating that something falls under the definition of a massacre is not a violation of WP:SYNTH. WP:NOTJUSTANYSYNTH states that a synth violation is original research by synthesis, which many others have pointed out this is not. A massacre by definition, albeit over a long period of time, occurred (this source states Antonio Guterres alleged it to be a massacre) but these were discovered later, hence why all the headlines mention mass graves. Similarly, the Andijan massacre and 2011 Durango massacres are examples of textbook massacres which were first discovered by mass graves. Jebiguess (talk) 01:27, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
'many others have pointed out' who did?
'this source states Antonio Guterres alleged it to be a massacre)' No, it doesn't. 'Antonio Guterres said he hopes the International Criminal Court will be able to investigate the alleged massacre in the eastern Ukrainian city.' If anything, the source confirms that it is still uncertain whether or not a massacre took place (therefore it is still 'alleged'), and that Guterres therefore thinks the ICC should investigate it.
'examples of textbook massacres' and which textbooks are you basing that on? Rather than asserting that this or that is an example of a textbook massacre, it might be helpful to cite these textbooks to see if their definitions come close to the evidence gathered at the Izium mass graves so far. (It may still constitute original research, but at least we can get a better idea of the criteria before we make a decision).
Just to be clear: I'm (still) not saying no massacre happened, I'm just saying the reliable sources don't (yet) give us enough reason to call it one, and our policies tell us to be careful and use neutral, non-judgemental titles. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:02, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
While this is almost certainly the case, we cannot afford to make our own conclusions, especially in a case like this, where ensuring a truthful version of events is absolutely necessary. I think it is perhaps best to wait for further official statements from the Ministry of Emergency Situations before we jump to saying something like "Russians killed as many people and buried them," both per WP:NOR and the fact that the MES forensic investigation has, to my knowledge, not yet concluded.
Mupper-san (talk) 17:58, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:46, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I checked every single source currently used in the article, and not a single one of them uses the word 'massacre'. Instead, they all say either 'mass graves' or 'mass burial site'. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the title should stay as it is. Moreover, per WP:NDESC and WP:OR, the title should not be changed to 'massacre'. Most users who indicate 'Support' only say that it is 'clear' (to themselves) that a 'massacre' has occurred, without invoking reliable sources or any of Wikipedia's policies on article titles. This is not about what we personally think is clear, nor how important it is to condemn the Russian military insofar it is responsible (with which I personally agree); that's not our job as Wikipedians. We'll leave that to human rights organisations and politicians. We are building an encyclopaedia, based on reliable sources according to policies and guidelines. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:32, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of the consistency criterion of WP:TITLE, there are plenty of en.Wikipedia articles with "massacre" in the title where the number of deaths was around 5 to 20 - much less than the 400 or so in this case, and the sources don't literally seem to use the word "massacre": 2022 Diyala massacre, 2021 Karachi massacre, W National Park massacre, 2019 Kulgam massacre. The fact of how the victims are buried is less notable in those cases, but it's still the massacre that is more notable than the burial. Boud (talk) 20:47, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's WP:OR to invent our own definitions of what counts as a 'massacre'. We must follow WP:RS to establish the WP:COMMONNAME and currently that is still 'Izium mass graves'. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:25, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We are "inventing" our own definitions of the word massacre, in your opinion? NytharT.C 20:37, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If Wikipedians simply take the number of deaths involved in an event to constitute a 'massacre' once an arbitrary threshold has been crossed, then that is inventing our own definitions, yes. Mind you, I'm a historian, and I know that a great many events in the past have been called 'massacres' with very low thresholds, such as the 1770 Boston Massacre, which resulted in just 5 deaths. Other much greater events such the 1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners (estimated deaths: between 5,000 and 33,000) have (so far) never been commonly called "massacres", whereas arguably they should have been. These two examples serve to demonstrate that the word 'massacre' is extremely subjective. Numbers alone don't make it more objective, because there is no objective threshold for when an event (somehow 'automatically') becomes a 'massacre'. With WP:NPOV and WP:NDESC in mind, we should not use the term 'massacre', especially without a consensus amongst our reliable sources (WP:COMMONNAME). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:58, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A "massacre" is an event where people are killed on a large-scale. Either title '1770 Boston shooting' or 'Boston massacre' could work, although the latter depends on how many deaths count as "large-scale". An editor above mentioned around 30 bodies were found with signs of torture, but there doesn't have to be torture for it to be a massacre. I think this article differs from other articles because its main focus isn't on the killings, but rather on the mass graves. Is the question here a) whether a massacre occured in Izium or b) whether this article is about the massacre or about the mass graves? NytharT.C 21:58, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think that in a few days or weeks, when we'll have more information about what happened, the contents of the article will change, and its subject will cease being the graves and will become the actual war crimes that were committed in Izium. I expect that the terminology of the sources will change: they will start speaking of massacres, killings, or whatever. Then we will be in the position of changing also the title of the article, and I won't oppose the RM. But for the time being, RS mainly speak about graves (that is, what we know for sure) and don't mention a massacre, and we should do the same, as WP:RECENT also suggests we do. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:17, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's a very good question, Nythar.
Question a) has not been answered by reliable sources so far, all of whom emphasise that investigations are ongoing, and/or cite politicians, legal experts and human rights organisations who urge that investigations must be set up and carried out thoroughly. Therefore, Wikipedia cannot answer this question yet. Therefore, I'm not taking a side on that question.
Question b) is, frankly, the question that I think we should be talking about. As I've argued above, the only thing we know for sure is that there are mass graves (technically, one mass grave and lots of individual graves) of people. Although preliminary findings strongly indicate they most likely all died of non-natural causes, and by far most will have been caused directly or indirectly by the Russian military, these aren't all simply executions, but - as mentioned - also shelling, airstrikes, died of lack of medicine or starvation etc. (Therefore, I personally find it likely that the result of investigations will categorise the actions of the Russian military against these people according to various war crimes rather than a single one, like 'massacre', which - as far as I know - is not a legal term). That coupled with the many issues that the word 'massacre' has (as I explained above), Wikipedia is probably best off not using it. 'Mass graves' is therefore a 'safe' and 'neutral' title: it proceeds from the only facts that we know for certain, is used in the overwhelming majority of our RS, does not make unsafe and contested assumptions, and does not generalise or jump to conclusions before the ongoing investigations (by actual experts) have been completed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:19, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
PS: I agree with Gitz. The results of the investigations could change the way reliable sources talk about what happened here, and that means I could take a side on question a). But pending the investigation, the title should remain as it is, because WP:CRYSTAL. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:34, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just chipping in here myself. Agree with both Gitz and Nederlandse Leeuw. As per WP guidelines, an article is named as per the common name, which in turn is based on reliable sources. Article names are not designated based on our personal opinions of the matter. EkoGraf (talk) 23:29, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nederlandse Leeuw: I see your point, thanks for explaining. NytharT.C 07:54, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. Your good question enabled me to clarify myself better. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:07, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(I) note war is atrocious What kind of closing rationale is that??? This seems to be saying "war is atrocious so we shouldn't call massacres massacres because, hey, you know, shit happens". How does that make sense, even putting the callousness and insensitivity in such a sentiment. Volunteer Marek 05:04, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How many civilians among the dead?[edit]

As far as I can see, we don't have an answer to this question yet. That's not strange: in Bucha it took months for investigators to identify all the victims. The sources we quote (Reuters, New York Times, The Guardian) don't report "440 Ukrainians murdered by Russian forces". Apart from the fact that "murdered" is POV and is also inaccurate - we should use "killed", some of them might have died in a bombing - the point is that RS don't say that all 440 bodies were civilians: it's quite likely that there were some combatants among them. Or did I miss anything in the sources? @Volunteer Marek, the problem is not that the source is written in a "human interest story" format [2]. Could you point to a source saying that all 440 or 445 graves contained civilians? If not, per WP:V we need to restore this text [3] or something similar to it. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:28, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Guardian source is almost all about torture and murder. I removed the word "civilians" to make you happy, but come on! There are sources which say that "most" were civilians [4] and other sources which say that so far at least 90% of the bodies exhumed have been civilian. Volunteer Marek 00:35, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with saying that "most" were civilians, I'm not fine with saying that all 440 were civilians, as RS don't say so. Besides, I'm not fine with the "murder" terminology. Murder is the "unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another". If at least some of the victims were killed unintentionally, "murder" is not only POV, it is also wrong, and in any case it is not supported by sources. We should use "440 persons killed by Russian forces". Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:50, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Which RS say that any of these people were killed unintentionally? My very best wishes (talk) 00:52, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As per WP:V, if we're going to publish that all these people were killed intentionally (at least 440 Ukrainians [were] murdered by Russian forces), then the right question is: which RS say that at least 440 people were killed intentionally? Do you have an answer to that? Actually we might not even know if all of them were killed by Russian forces (rather than die from natural causes). Do we have a source on that? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 06:46, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is all we know so far: [5]. Please modify the lead only on the basis of sources and avoid generalisations not supported by sources. The article has already been translated and published on many wikipedias and most of them have included our unverified content "445​ civilians murdered by Russian forces". Such is the case of es.wiki, pt.wiki and be.wiki, but interestingly not ru.wiki nor uk.wiki, as they have better sources. It's so bad we cannot read our sources carefully, comply with WP:V and be reminded of WP:RECENT. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:38, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Based on this source (Ukrainska Pravda) [6] we now have information on the number of civilians, children, tortured people, etc., as reported by Ukr. authorites. I published them in the section Izium_mass_graves#Investigation. Note that they are compatible with the lead as it is now and not with the lead as it was before, so please @Volunteer Marek don't restore again the old lead - it is not only verified, but factually wrong. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:00, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the published numbers of civilians and military should be used. No one suggested otherwise. However, all these sources including Ukrainska Pravda strongly imply that all these people were murdered by Russian forces (hence the "massacre" in discussion on this page). It is another matter that an investigation is ongoing and will lead to refining the numbers and the exact causes of their deaths. BTW, more mass graves were found in Izum.My very best wishes (talk) 13:38, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, AFIK only one "mass grave" properly called (that is, a collective grave) was found in Izium: one mass grave with 20+ bodies plus 445 individual graves. Probably the lead needs to be changed accordingly and also the current title, "Izium mass graves", although supported by RS, might be imprecise.
Moreover, I don't particularly like The graves contained bodies of people executed by Russian forces in the lead because either it suggests that all the graves contained bodies of murdered people (which is false) or, if not, it is repetitive of what immediately follows: 30 presented traces of torture and summary execution, so either it is misleading or it is redundant. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They describe it as a single "site" with multiple graves. You say: it suggests that all the graves contained bodies of murdered people (which is false). This is not false, but probably just unproven at this point. Actually, these sources strongly imply (although do not necessarily say it directly) that yes, the found graves contained bodies of murdered people. My very best wishes (talk) 23:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Given that you agree that The graves contained bodies of people executed by Russian forces suggests that all the graves contained bodies of murdered people, the point worth discussing is, as you rightly acknowledge, whether RS imply (or even say) that all the dead had been murdered/executed by Russian forces. Now, Ukrainska Pravda says Syniehubov said that most of the exhumed bodies have signs of violent death. That implies that some of the exhumed bodies had no sign of violent death. If they didn’t die from violent causes, it's hard to believe they had been "executed". Moreover, Reuters, 15 Sept, says Serhiy Bolvinov, the chief police investigator for Kharkiv region [said] Some died because of artillery fire ... some died because of air strikes. Now, describing as "execution" the killing of people in air strikes is clearly wrong. So I see two possibilities here: either we change the above quoted sentence into some of the bodies contained in the graves belonged to people executed by Russian forces, which is correct but is redundant (we already say Most of the dead showed signs of violent death and … summary execution) or, as I think it’s best, we drop the sentence altogether. Pending discussion, I'm removing the sentence. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:47, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it would be more precise to say that some of these people were "killed" rather than "executed". Yes, some of them were "killed" by Russian airstrikes or artillery fire. My very best wishes (talk) 00:08, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Massacre[edit]

Whatever the outcome of the RfC on the name of the article (which IMO was closed completely ignoring the overwhelming consensus and with a ridiculously flippant and clueless closing statement) does not apply to what categories are appropriate for the article. Whether this article is called "mass graves" or "massacre" the fact remains that a massacre DID take place here and the categories are more than appropriate. I'd appreciate it if "the usuals" stop trying to whitewash this. Volunteer Marek 21:26, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Um, can we please not edit war? It isn't helping. NytharT.C 21:45, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]


And btw, that RfC was closed as "no consensus" even though the !vote was 17 to 3 (yes, 3) in support of calling it a "massacre". It's one of the most absurd closes I've seen in awhile. Volunteer Marek 21:46, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that edit warring is not helpful @Volunteer Marek and @Nederlandse Leeuw, and probably is neither needed. I see that many articles on mass graves have categories with "massacre": Mass graves from Soviet mass executions, Mass graves in Slovenia, Mass graves in Chechnya (here "war crimes, actually, no massacre), Mass graves in Celje, Mass graves in Iraq, and more. It makes sense: if I were interested in getting information about massacres in Ukraine, I might also be interested in knowing about the mass graves in Izium. In fact, the central goal of the category system is to provide navigational links to Wikipedia pages (WP:CAT). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Mass graves suffices for that, and this article is already in that category.
We must describe this article in terms that the community can agree on. There was no consensus to call it a 'massacre', therefore the page was not moved. There is no justification for ignoring the result by categorising it as a 'massacre'. WP:NOCON states: 'In discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit.' That means this version of 18:34, 16 September 2022, after which Abcmaxx initiated the proposal to rename it to 'Izium massacre' (which the community did not accept, therefore no consensus). At the time, there were no categories containing the word 'massacre', and thus per WP:NOCON we should not categorise this article as a 'massacre' after the failure of the proposal to call it a 'massacre' in the title to be accepted. Marek appears unwilling to respect the outcome of the proposal by saying 'Whether this article is called "mass graves" or "massacre" the fact remains that a massacre DID take place here and the categories are more than appropriate.' No, it is not appropriate, because WP:RS have not confirmed a 'massacre' to have taken place; it is your own personal POV that it did, and it is not appropriate to be pushing your POV (WP:NPOV) and disrespecting the community process with disruptive editing (WP:DISRUPTSIGNS) by reverting Gitz and me because you refuse to accept the result. As Gitz and I have said many times, consensus can change (WP:CCC), but until it does (most likely when the investigations by the Ministry of Emergency Situations (MES) are complete), Wikipedia is not a crystal ball (WP:CRYSTAL) and we do not rush ahead with our conclusions (WP:NOR). Besides, we've already got:
This already greatly encompasses all the things that the community does agree on. There is no need for adding 'massacre' categories to it when the community has not accepted such a description. I'm sorry, but I must make a stand here: we build Wikipedia upon policies, guidelines, reliable sources, and striving towards consensus, and therefore we should be against the addition of any 'massacre' categories in this situation. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:23, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article name literally has nothing to do with what categories can be added to the article. Your walls of text about how не всё так однозначно are rather annoying. Kleinpecan (talk) 15:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that the name and the categories of an article have nothing to do with each other is rather silly. There, no wall of text for you. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:23, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think this also applies here [7]. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Probably so. It seems quite obvious that Marek is pushing a POV in which Ukrainians can do nothing wrong, and we need to assume the worst in cases where Russians do something wrong. Although reliable sources do seem to indicate generally speaking Ukrainian soldiers are much, much better at respecting human rights during this war than Russian soldiers are, no reliable source will claim that all Ukrainians are infallibly good (so things like Russian POWs being subjected to sexual violence by Ukrainian soldiers never happened) and all Russians are irredeemably evil; yet that seems to be the POV that Marek is pushing. I'm not sure if this policy applies here, but I'm thinking about WP:COISELF: 'If you have a personal connection to a topic or person, you are advised to refrain from editing those articles directly and to provide full disclosure of the connection if you comment about the article on talk pages or in other discussions.' Now this rule is mostly about specific people that an editor knows or is related to, but I would suggest that Marek may be strongly identifying with Ukrainians in general. The fact that he put his signature into blue and yellow might give an indication of a dedicated loyalty to Ukraine/Ukrainians that we are witnessing to be conflict with several of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, such as NPOV. If so, I would advise Marek to refain from editing articles about Ukraine that are particularly emotion-laden, and make it difficult to be editing in accordance with our policies and guidelines. Nobody who is deeply emotionally invested in a particular POV is doing themselves, nor the community, nor Wikipedia, nor its readers, a favour by being unable to accept it whenever reliable sources or the consensus happen to differ from their POV. I assume that Marek is very well capable of making good contributions on topics they are not as emotionally invested in. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:23, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've never claimed that "all Ukrainians are infallibly good" or anything of the sort. Nor did I say "we need to assume the worst in cases where Russians do something wrong". Nor did I say anything even close to resembling "all Russians are irredeemably evil".
Indeed your comment accusing me of these things is just WP:ASPERSIONS and is frankly quite insulting. So I'm going to ask you to strike those comments.
You also acknowledge that "reliable sources do seem to indicate generally speaking Ukrainian soldiers are much, much better at respecting human rights during this war than Russian soldiers are" but then turn around and claim that I am "unable to accept" reliable sources. Huh??? That's another personal attack and WP:ASPERSIONS.
Finally, your comments about my signature are just freakin' bizarre and I have no idea why you thought it necessary to comment upon it. That is also a pretty clear violation of "discuss content, not editors". Same thing applies to your specious and inane speculations about my emotional state. Please keep those to yourself (and I'm not going to warn you about that again).
And my signature is orange and blue dude! I'm actually a Marshall Islands nationalist! Volunteer Marek 19:14, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Marek, as you may have noticed, I took a short break as things were getting a bit heated (WP:COOL). In hindsight, I think you are correct that I went a bit too far in my aspersions about you, for which I now apologise. They were unnecessary and unhelpful. I've struck these comments per your request. I stand by the rest of what I've said, namely that I think you can make very valuable contributions to Wikipedia (WP:AGF) if you do not have too much of a 'conflict of interest' (broadly defined) with the topic in question. The same rules apply to me, of course. It is my mistake that I made needless aspersions when I was frustated with your disagreement with me (so yeah, I'm not without 'unhelpful emotions' either). I have chosen not to challenge the categorisation of this article as a 'massacre' anymore for now, as long as the title stays at it is. It's a compromise I can accept. I hope we can work together a bit more constructively in the future if the need arises. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I've created two new subcategories, Category:Mass graves in Ukraine and Category:Mass graves in Russia, by moving them from the general category:Mass graves. Similary by-country cats already existed for Spain and Slovenia, and more could be created for e.g. Sri Lanka. I hope this makes it easier to group, find and compare these articles. I note that some articles on topics like these are only in a 'mass grave' category, while others are only in a 'massacre' category, a third group is in both, and a fourth group is in neither. A similar pattern applies to article titles, which may or may not correspond to the categories they are currently in. Additionally, I found important guidelines at Talk:List of events named massacres, which may help us in making assessments in how to title and categorise such articles. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:46, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Of course.. when ukraine was bombing and killing innocent civilians (Donbas region) for the past 8 years since 2014, it was all good and stuff and no western country condemned ukraine but when Russia is sharing the same medicine it's not OK anymore? what happened? is Russophobia causing this ignorance ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4DF4:1313:D800:ACCA:AF8A:F76E:C3D0 (talk) 17:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mass grave vs cemetery.[edit]

Those bodies were buried in individual graves with crosses marking them, thats not a mass grave otherwise all cemeteries should be considered mass graves. 92.34.244.162 (talk) 21:53, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong link in the Reports section[edit]

In this section the sentence says ,,after Russian forces were driven out of the city in the Kharkiv counteroffensive", but its link falsely connects it to the Battle of Izium article, which was in fact written about the Russian siege back in March. I will remove the link.--Freewales (talk) 06:14, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removed section[edit]

Editor @Proletaire ex removed the entire section about the Ukrainian war crimes in Izium despite it's reliable sources (UN, OHCHR) becouse they "dont link them specifically to the mass graves". I still think that its worth to be mentioned here: the scope of the article is not a single mass grave, more like the many marked and unmarked graves in and around Izium, which were made during the Russian occupation. These graves contain the victims of the Russian atrocities, and naturally those people as well, who were killed by Ukrainian shelling and "butterfly landmines". I think this article is the perfect place to write about all the war crimes committed in Izium, but if you have an other idea for a more appropriate place, please write.

Btw Proletaire ex: Please write to the talk page first and discuss it before you erase my entire work, thank you.--Freewales (talk) 19:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is literally a paragraph which says: The United Nations responded by stating they plan to send monitors to Izium. I dont see why cant we write about the findings of this monitoring team.--Freewales (talk) 19:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First, per WP:BRD, the appropriate response is to open a discussion, not the restoration of the text. Second, the section introduce is WP:UNDUE to the central topic of the mass grave here. It would tolerable if it was just a sentence or two explaining the presence of the monitors based on third-party, independent, reliable sources. – robertsky (talk) 23:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please help me to understand what was the problem with my edit in the first place. The UN is literally the most independent, reliable and neutral source in the entire war and I quite strictly followed what they wrote in their report, and always noted who said what, based on what, etc. Can you explain it to me in more detail? Thanks: Freewales (talk) 00:56, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As a first step: do you agree, that the UN and OHCHR reports dealing with this topic are notable? Freewales (talk) 01:14, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

Are there any sources sited for this article that do involve parties to this conflict? I wouldn't consider anything originating from Europe or North America to be unbiased.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.177.104.125 (talk) 21:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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