Talk:Jack Chesbro

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jack Chesbro/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MathewTownsend (talk · contribs) 13:28, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I'll begin this review shortly. MathewTownsend (talk) 13:28, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Review

This is a wonderful article that is packed with information. My only concerns have to do with a general reader (like me) making their way through the article and not understanding some of it. Also, it is confusing when a link seems to be an "Easter egg" link, in that it goes some place unexpected or not explained. All the different name changes of teams is confusing. I have asked question about his various pitches, as after all he is a pitcher and that's how he managed to win all those games in 1904 and get into the Hall of Fame.

• Lead

• Everything in the lead should be repeated in the article, including links.
• The lead could be expanded to include more about his record, the unusualness of it, since that is the only reason he is in the Hall of Fame.

• I expanded the lead.

• Early life

• the bolding of John Dwight Chesebrough in the "Early life" is not needed and unnecessarily draws the eye. It doesn't contribute anything to understanding Chesbro so I think the bolding should go.
• Don't need to repeat the same footnote in one sentence, especially for info that is not controversial
• Where is Haughtonville? Can you say something like "the nearby town of Haughtonville"?

• Professional career

• Minor leagues - need a link somewhere to the Minor leagues for those who don't know

• Major League - also needs a link somewhere
• Pittsburgh Pirates needs to be repeated here and linked. The reader shouldn't have to get there via the various Pittsburgh Pirates seasons. (General principle: the lead is a summary of the article. Therefore, everything in the lead should be repeated in the article's body along with any additional material.)

• Pittsburgh Pirates was linked towards the end of the minor league section. I moved it into the MLB section, that should be more clear.

• Explain somewhere that the New York Highlanders are now the Yankees, so the reader doesn't have to wonder if the link is wrong. (Its confusing that the team name seems to flip back and forth.)

• Now mentioned in the lead and body that the name changed, which happened after Chesbro retired.

• "At the end of the 1902 season, news broke that Chesbro agreed to sign with the New York Highlanders of the American League (AL) for the 1903 season,[11] when Jesse Tannehill told Pirates owner Barney Dreyfuss while under the influence of pain medication." - clumsy wording - that Dreyfuss revealed the news? (I had to read that sentence several times before I made the connection.)

• "Chesbro pitched the Highlanders' first game." - that was the team's first game ever? They were a completely new team?

• Yes. I clarified this in the text.

• "slow ball" - why in quotes and what is meant? Is it explained in changeup? What is it?

• Not really sure. Back then, pitchers were experimenting with different things. It's not clear that this is the same as a changeup or something different.
• Can't find any more detail.

• "a Yankees franchise record' - it hasn't been explained that he is a member of the Yankees. When did the name change occur?

• In 1913. I changed it from Yankees to New York, since the term Yankees probably shouldn't be used as he was never on the team when it was known as the Yankees.

• "causing the Highlanders'" - confuses the reader to use Yankees and Highlanders interchangeably without explanation.

• I've tried to address this. Have I?

• How has the "current dollar terms" for the trade been arrived at?

• Source added that lists all players and sum of the cash from that trade.

• "jump ball" - can this be explained?

• I'll try, but again this seems to be one of those pitching experiments that may not be described in much greater detail.
• Can't find anything else.

• "After the 1907 season, Chesbro announced that he was giving up the spitball, intending to return to the "old style of pitching" in 1908" - what is the old style of pitching?

• That means without the spitball. I hope I clarified this by stating that the spitball was experimental at the time.

• "claimed by the Boston Red Sox in September" - this is not linked - previously they are called the Boston Americans, although the link goes to Boston Red Sox. Confusing

• Link and team name clarification added. The Red Sox used to call themselves the Americans, much as the Yankees used to be known as the Highlanders.

• "but he was placed on the ineligible list after he refused to report to the minor leagues" - is this like a farm team of the Highlanders? Or the minor leagues in general?

• Yes, it was New York's farm team. I clarified this.

• Post-MLB career

• "Chesbro returned to his farm" - hasn't been explained that he has a farm.

• Explained that he bought it about a decade earlier.

• "including Milford, Massachusetts" - does this mean in Milford Massachusetts?

• Clarified

• "Chesbro met with New York owner" - this links to Yankees so "New York owner" is incomplete - if the reader doesn't look at the link, it could mean an owner that lives in New York

• Fixed.

• "The National Commission" - what is this

• The governing body of MLB. I took it out as it isn't needed.

• Legacy

• Really an excellent section and it would add to understanding the article of more of the information in it were incorporated into the lead.

• Thank you. You're right that much of this fits well in the lead. I beefed up the lead, and the legacy section too.

• This is an extremely well written, well organized article. It appears very well sourced, although because of the "subscription required" much is not accessible to me. My list aboves is essentially nitpicks from a person not deeply familiar with baseball.

MathewTownsend (talk) 17:40, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks for the review. I'll try to have this all addressed today, as I'm leaving town on vacation later this week and I'd rather have this wrapped up before I leave, rather than having to keep this on hold while I'm away. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:45, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
• I've addressed many of your comments. Later today I'll try to see what more I can find on the specifics of those pitches, though I suspect it won't be much. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:59, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
• I can't find any more information on those pitches. Back then, pitchers were just doing anything they could think of. The spitball was one of those experiments, and it was eventually banned by MLB. Chesbro's "slow ball" and "jump ball" appear to be among those experiments. Pitchers weren't taught standardized pitches like the fastball, curveball, changeup, etc. in this time. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:58, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• Very good job! MathewTownsend (talk) 20:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Does it follow the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

• Congratulations!

MathewTownsend (talk) 20:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

"Chesebrough" vs. "Cheesbro"

The Fleitz book discusses that Chesbro's original last name was "Chesebrough". SABR is unfortunately incorrect in stating that his name was "Cheesbro". – Muboshgu (talk) 22:14, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

No. Chesbro's birth name was John D. Cheesbro. A 1903 genealogy on the Cheseborough family is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MacSays (talk • contribs) 23:25, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

What makes it incorrect? – Muboshgu (talk) 15:46, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I just performed a search and "Cheesbro" never comes up except for the SABR biography, while "Chesebrough" comes up alot. It's pretty clear that his real name was "Chesebrough". – Muboshgu (talk) 15:50, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Fleitz's bio of Chesbro is loaded with errors. It is true Chesbro's family name had been Cheseborough (& other spellings) in the past, but it was at least two generations back. If one were to look at the primary sources, one would find Cheesbro and Chesbro in eastern Massachusetts, not Cheseborough or any of the other longer spellings. The family name was Cheesbro at the time of the pitcher's birth, and his birth name is John D. Cheesbro. That really shouldn't even be debateable. (The family name often appeared as Cheesboro in the newspapers.) Fleitz also has the old canard of the suicide squeeze origin, which is nonsense. For one thing, the story changed every few years in Shirley Povich's articles (one day it's Elberfeld, another it's Keeler) yet the play in question did not happen if you go through the box scores. Fleitz also mentions Chesbro experimenting with the spitter in 1896, which is more nonsense. He probably made the same mistake others did and saw the article mentioning 'dew drops' and assumed that meant applying moisture. ('Dew drops' meant slow balls.) The Chesborough genealogy published around 1903 is incorrect with the spelling of the Mass. Cheesbro / Chesbro families. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.66.98.22 (talk) 18:03, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Don't base your edits on internet searches. View the primary sources. And it's Houghtonville, not Haughtonville.

The internet includes some of the best sources available, but is certainly imperfect. Please provide some of these primary sources you're talking about. Also, understand that often secondary sources are preferable to primary sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:10, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Also, no matter how certain you are that you are right, please do not edit war over the issue, or I'll request the page be protected from editing. I'm eliciting other editors from WP:BASEBALL on this now. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:14, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Chesbro's birth record can be found in the North Adams, Massachusetts vital records. I went through the first three binders to find all members of the Chesbro family. Chesbro's name at birth was John D. Cheesbro. I have about 300 pages of Chesbro documentation, so bring on all the editors you want. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.66.98.22 (talk) 18:21, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Can you show us your evidence? AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 18:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

What specifically do you want to see? As for the birth record, I do not have a copy of that one. The record of Chesbro's birth is written in a large ledger. His name is close to the center binding. Making a photo copy is impossible as one would need to press the ledger down on the copier machine. The North Adams town clerk said she could type the data and print out a certificate if I desired, but I declined. I saw the original record. If I couldn't get a photo copy of the original record, I didn't want a re-type. His birth name is John D. Cheesbro. Everyone else in the Chesbro family in the first 3 volumes of birth records in North Adams, Mass. had the birth name of either Cheesbro or Chesbro. While Chesbro's ancestors had numerous spellings, the spelling of that particular branch had changed to Cheesbro by the time he was born. What evidence to you have to the contrary? Numerous internet searches in which most of them simply repeat the other? To say 'Fleitz's book has such and such is ridiculous. Does Fleit cite a source for the birth name? It appears he used the circa 1903 Cheseborough genealogy, but that book does not cite the source of Chesbro's birth name. Any genealogist worth a darn knows that a birth record in the town office of the place of birth trumps a noncontemporary bio in a book that apparently cites another non-contemporary book that has no citation for another spelling. To say that "often secondary sources are preferable to primary sources" when discussing birth records is absurd. Take a look at the North Adams town directories and maps for the time period. There was a Cheesbro Street (now Chesbro Ave.) where the family lived. Don't you think the street name would have been Cheseborough Street if that were the name of the family living at the end of the street?

Well, I'm not entirely sure what the situation is, but do keep in that we need to be able to verify the information. We cannot simply take your word for it, unfortunately. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 02:21, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Then verify the spelling of the name in Fleitz's book. Go through the box scores and show me the game in which Keeler & Chesbro did the suicide squeeze. (If it happened, it didn't happen in 1904 or 1905. Read more on the squeeze, and you'll find the opponent change, the player - Elberfeld/Keeler, the ballpark, etc., but you won't find the actual game. The squeeze pre-dates those stories anyway.) Show me a contemporary source that says the wild pitch was a controversial call. Show me contemporary sources that say Chesbro's wife campaigned for a scoring change (didn't happen.) Fleitz merely repeated the old, unverified stories, two of which were occasional space-filling re-tellings in Shirley Povich's columns. My data come from primary sources. You've taken the other poster's word for it based on dubious sources. Call the North Adams town clerk and ask what it says for Chesbro's birth name -- 413-662-3015.

The Chesbro bio has 20 footnotes to the SABR bio (that I wrote.) Isn't it odd that 20 footnotes point to that article, but the spelling of the name can't be trusted? Additional footnotes are sources that are also footnotes in the SABR bio, so in a sense, there are more than 20 footnotes from the SABR bio.

I'm not sure who you are, but apparently (if you're being honest), you know what you are talking about. I have no real position on this, my only concern is that the content in question be verified. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 19:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree with AS. You certainly seem to be speaking from a position of greater knowledge on the subject than I have. Are you Wayne McElreavy? That would make a lot of sense. We do require WP:V to be met. It's basically the single most important issue on Wikipedia. Another question of name verifiability has just come up on Curtis Granderson's article as well. It makes it tough when two different sources contradict each other in these ways. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:02, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I am Wayne. Not sure what WP:V is (I don't come on Wikipedia much.) It's odd, though, how any change is scrutinized, but the intial posting doesn't seem to be. MacSays (talk) 03:29, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

The family confirms that his birth name was John Dwight Chesebrough. His father was Chad Brown Chesebrough, his sister (my great grandmother) was Ida Bell Chesebrough, and his brother was Daniel Chesebrough--they did not change the spelling. Family web sites showing this birth name include http://www.chesebro.net/ and http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=lanastl&id=I13911 It is true, however that the name is pronounced "cheez-bro" within this branch of the family, not "chezz-bro." It's also true that Houghtonville is currently the usual form of the neighborhood, although the Appalachian Trail still sticks with Haughtonville.

And how does the family confirm that? You cited two websites. The info is merely repeated from a book over a hundred years old that does not itself provide citations for the data. I spoke with the keeper of one of the sites, who told me the author of the 1903-or-so book was 'very thorough.' Maybe so, but he did not access records from North Adams, Mass. If he had, as I properly cited in my Chesbro bio, he would have seen the Cheesbro and Chesbro birth records. So take a look at those sites. Then look at the listing for Jack's father. Don't you think it's odd that someone named Chesbro or Cheesbro would name his children Cheseborough? (Even the two sites you cite contradict what you wrote above.) It seems obvious to me that the author of that book, which is the genesis for some of the misinformation that exists today in other sources, used the Chesborough spelling in cases when he didn't have primary sources. (It's a common issue with genealogies.) It's as simple as this - if your last name is Browne, and you write 'Brown' on your child's birth record, your child's last name is Brown unless you decide to change it. I have gone through all birth records in the North Adams, Mass., town office. The ballplayer's birth name is 'John D. Cheesbro.' That is indisputable for anyone who has seen the record. (And his middle name isn't Dwight, it's 'D.' One can say the D is for Dwight, but his middle name is D. just as Harry Truman's middle name is S.) Further, I challenge anyone to povide a birth record for Jack's son. The old book has a son born to him in 1898, but there is no such record in Massachusetts for him nor could I find one in Virginia, where he was playing that season. I went through the North Adams newspapers for the entire year and the first half of the following January looking for mention of this child, but I found none. The editors of the Deadball book and I decided it must have been an errant listing. As for the pronunciaton, I have sources saying it was 'Cheezboro' and that appears to be accurate since the family name was often misspelled as Cheesboro in the North Adams newspapers. MacSays (talk) 03:29, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

As for whether Aunt Mabel tried to get the ruling changed to a passed ball, my grandparents from North Adams certainly recalled this, and it is confirmed by Jim Reisler's book, p. 98. Note that it's very difficult to prove a negative ("didn't happen"). WP is not the place for original research, but my family tradition agrees with all my reliable sources, and with Muboshgu on this one. And why don't you sign your articles? Finn Froding (talk) 20:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Reisler's book confirms nothing. It's merely repeating the same old story. I would expect anyone writing a bio of Chesbro by using their personal library and onine sources to come up with the following: 1. birth name was Cheseborough (or some other spelling) 2. from village of Haughtonville 3. helped devise suicide squeeze 4. wife carried on long crusade for scoring change

In each case, the writer would be wrong. One could find internet sources saying Abner Doubleday invented baseball, too, but that's just the repeating of misinformation. There are numerous sources, both web and in print, saying that Mabel carried on the crusade of getting the scoring changed. For one thing, the rules (even then) didn't permit such a thing. The length of a 'long crusade' is debatable, but she lived about 9 years after Jack died. I wouldn't call that a long crusade. What actually happened was Shirley Povich would drum up his old stories every few years. Along with a sypathetic Clark Griffith, Mabel wanted the story told. A newpaper printed a story saying the ball might have been caught. Mabel was satisfied and considered the matter closed. That's it. No long crusade. (There was no scoring change made, so why would she consider the matter closed if she were carrying on a long crusade?) If find it really amusing that you discount what I wrote in a book despite the fact that I provided sources, and you accept something written in another book that is not sourced. Another great day for Wikipedia! You wrote, "WP is not the place for original research." It doesn't seem to be the place for any research. All it does it copy the work of others whether correct or not. Wikipedia merely perpetuates bad information. Someone asked why someone didn't sign their articles. Assuming that's to me, I don't know how. I just saw a note about 4 tildes, so I'm trying that. Hope it works. Tell you what, though. I'm done. You put what you want on the page. I can see why so many people don't take Wikipedia seriously as a source. I've looked at a lot of baseball pages, and they just pass on the same old, wrong stories.MacSays (talk)

According to the 1880 federal census the spelling of the family name was Cheesbro.Johnhreynolds (talk) 21:40, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

References

Altrock

Altrock's tenure with Washington was not continuous. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:16, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Altrock was a coach with Washington the entire 1924 season. Schacht was brought on in mid-season. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MacSays (talk • contribs) 00:23, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Houghtonville

There have been some questions about Houghtonville in connection with John Cheesbro's early life. I have a little personal knowledge which I would like to share. I was born in 1941 and grew up in Houghtenville which is actually a neighborhood within the Town of Clarksburg, Massachusetts. When I was a boy, Houghtonville was one of the three school districts in Clarksburg. The others were Center and Briggsville. Each district had its own neighborhood school. Their are newspaper stories in the North Adams Transcript about activities in the three schools. The neighborhoods have strong community identities, but but are only considered named places in the official records. According to a 1885 history of North Adams , Houghtonville was originally a large property extending as far south as North Street in North Adams that was purchased in 1868 by the developer, A. C. Houghton.

My interest in this topic started with stories told by my grandfather, John F. Greene, who played sandlot ball with Jack Cheesbro. I did some research and was excited by the connection to my old neighborhood. More research through Family Tree Maker led to the 1880 federal census . The census records show that in, 1880, John D. Cheesbro, son of Chad B Cheesbro, lived at 131 North Street in North Adams, Massachusetts. Other members of the Cheesbro family lived in neighboring homes. As there has been some discussion of the spelling of the family name, including the statement that the name was shortened to fit in the box score, I was interested to see that all the family names in this census page are spelled "Cheesbro". According to Google Earth, 131 North Street is inside the North Adams, Massachusetts city limits about a quarter mile south of the Clarksburg line, but still inside the original Houghtonville development.

Another reference, states that "As a youth, Chesbro played with the Houghtonville Nine and several other western Massachusetts sandlot teams." It is reasonable to me that the Houghtonville Nine actually played in the Town of Clarksburg. The terrain in northern North Adams is very hilly and Clarksburg may have had more suitable ball fields. Finally, does anyone have rosters for the sandlot teams Jack Cheesbro played on? One containing John Greens' name would be very very cool!Johnhreynolds (talk) 21:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

References

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