Talk:Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

→

Archive 5

Letter from Jackie to Bob's Widow

Recently in the news there has been some discussion regarding the FBI seizing a letter written by Jackie. See: [[1]]. Any relevance to put in here? MR.R (talk) 10:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Bias

This must be one of the most biased articles on wikipedia - whoever wrote it is almost gushing:

"She was not only young and attractive, but intelligent and cultivated, and possessed an innate sense of style and elegance. Though she was sometimes criticized for her aloofness, expensive tastes, and European ways, the American public quickly took to her, and made her its idol."

Is ANY of that factual? So POV it hurts. Can someone please fix this? Omgplz (talk) 12:53, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Definately the most unencyclopedic and biased article I have read. Some parts make me think it's been plagerised from a 12 year old's book report: "Jackie's skill at entertaining gave White House events the reputation of being magical." --Miczilla (talk) 08:02, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, every bit of it is factual. It seems YOU are the one with the petty bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.204.165 (talk) 18:27, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm with "unsigned" to an extent. Every bit of it is supported by some biography or article dealing with the subject, and this is true of everything I've read here so far. That's the problem. Everything on the page COULD be cited with some effort. How "true" that makes it is problematical. Contemporary magazine material as well as newspaper articles have some of the most "gushing" descriptions. Her biographers are also not inclined to be unbiased, and frequently either quote or contradict each other. Comparing Spoto, Klein, Gage, and Moutsatsos (for instance) for versions of the same events will bear this out. While I have a respectable collection to draw from, I've avoided getting into this because of the absolute murkiness of the source material. Deciding what to believe leaves you somewhere between opinion and "original scholarship". Just remember that history isn't a mathematical discipline, and some toleration of ambiguity (at the least) is going to be necessary. Jeolojist (talk) 06:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Elegance?

There is a section called Elegance in the article which appears, nearly word for word, in the "First Lady..." section. Suggestions on which to keep? Tenorcnj 13:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Death

Under her death it seems to suggest that her death was linked to smoking, there is no link between Non-Hodkings lymphoma and smoking.

Well, someone should have pointed that out to Caroline. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.117.175 (talk) 01:54, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Japanese pronounciation

Could someone help me (and other Japanese wikipedians) on pronounciation of the part "Bouvier"?

Does it pronounce like a standard french word, ommitting the last consonant (Buu Viee)? Or it is more like Buu Viee(r) with a hint of r at the end? Tomos 11:23, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

We Japanese pronounce it as Būbie（ブービエ）. --1523 19:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Well that's not quite right. It's boo-vee-eh. Tpacw (talk) 15:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Buu-vee-eih/Buu-vee-aih 88.235.89.130 (talk) 21:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Article Naming

Why was this page moved? We're supposed to use common names. "Lee Bouvier" is never used. --Jia ng 08:53, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't this article be
Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis ?
(How I commonly see it mentioned as, if it's not Jacqueline Kennedy or Jackie O)

Given Name: Jacqueline
Maiden Name: Bouvier
Husband#1 : Kennedy
Husband#2 : Onassis

132.205.15.4 04:30, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

As an Editor

She edited Larry Gonnick's first collection of The Cartoon History of the Universe while at Doubleday. It's now reprinted by another house.

ISBN 0385265204 The Cartoon History of the Universe by Larry Gonick

[1]

Booyaka to link to the nude photo? If someone wishes to see it they can easily go look for it themselves in Google. It just seems kinda disrespectful in the context of that it was not taken as a work of art, as a historical document, or any such thing. The fact that it appeared in Hustler isn't what bothers me but rather that it was a violation of her privacy (at the very least, when she had a resonable expectation of privacy).

Wiki-paparazzi is not a role we should seek out. The Jackie-O section significantly reduces the quality of the article. Rjensen 14:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Problems with this article

I just started to copy edit this, but there's almost no point, because so much of it is unencyclopedic, and there are no references. I see User:SNIyer1 has edited it several times, and I suspect may be the source of the schmaltz. Does anyone have a suggestion as to whether, and if so how, this article should be rewritten? SlimVirgin 18:09, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

Well I edited a bit of the part of her final years, because it sounds indeed like a homage page, not as an encyclopedia article 200.222.3.3 21:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

"Though just 64 at her death, she lived a life fuller than people who survive decades more. " HOW FUCKING POV IS THAT!!! im removing it immediately --TommyStardust 21:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

This article states Jackie married JFK in Newport RI. I do believe the name of the church was St Mary's. Im wondering why this wasnt included. 70.181.33.111 00:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I find the statement that she was fluent in Farsi/Persian, Arabic, Serbian etc. rather fanciful. Source?

^Seriously, the article states that she was fluent in "French, Spanish, German, Chinese, English, Japanese, Yidish, Russian, Korean, Georginan, Arabic, Persian, Serbian and Italian". Fluency in 14 languages is a bit hard to swallow without a source. 69.230.199.226 20:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm having some trouble trying to figure out what is and is not appropriate to keep in this article. I strongly believe that a good deal of this article is very biased. The main problem seems to be indirect bias - that is, the inclusion of quotes and information that is verifiable, but from sources that certainly do not have a neutral point of view. In addition, some of those quotes and information do not add to the article except to put the subject in a certain light. The "Assassination" and "Life after the assassination" sections are especially good examples of this. Does anyone have any idea how we can begin to make this article encyclopedic so that it is as factual and unbiased as possible, instead of a thinly veiled homage? I realize this is difficult given that it's a historical article and therefore opinion will play a part, but there must be a way to improve this article. Abootface (talk) 15:11, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 21:48, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Funeral Photo

The photo showing the coffin of Mrs. Onassis just prior to burial looks better than the current one. Centers 02:10, 22 Jun 2006 (UTC)

Thread lacks tons of citations

Practically all of this article requires citation.

ironic?

Ironically, although they met at this dinner party, they didn’t begin dating until they were reintroduced almost a year later.
How is that ironic exactly?

Last Will and Testament of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis

We wish to advise everyone that we (the Living Trust Network) have a copy of Jackie Onassis' Last Will and Testament posted on our website, which we believe is of interest to anyone seeking information about the life of Jackie Onassis. We have also discussed our desire to post a link to Jackie Onassis' Last Will and Testament with Wikipedia administrators [See User talk:Livingtrust], either under "references" or "external links." Last Will and Testament of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis. Wikipedia does not object to the link but has requested that we not put the link up ourselves since we are a commercial website. Instead, it has requested that we make it known that the Last Will and Testament is available, and anyone who wishes to add the link to the "reference" section or the "external links" section may do so. So, we solicite your help in adding the link set forth above. Thanks. Livingtrust 03:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis in astronomy

In astronomy, it is possible that the name, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, can be used to name one of the extrasolar planet candidates in the central bulge of our galaxy, after the First Lady of the United States. --Bryan Seecrets 13:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Where is "The Greek Tycoon"?

I find it hard to believe that an article on Jackie O. has no references, none, to the 1978 movie that is an obvious fictionalized biography from the Onassis years. Is this an unintended oversight, or is the omission intentional? Kirchherr 03:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

free wedding photos

two good wedding photos are available at the loc: http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/cph.3g11913 and http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/cph.3g04349 . 140.247.240.181 23:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

her father's 103rd birthday

I don't want to edit war about such a trivial matter, but does anyone think it is notable that she died in 1994 on what would have been her father's 103rd birthday, when her father died in 1957, almost 40 years earlier? This is coincidence and not all that interesting, seeing as her father didn't come close to reaching that birthday. And I think an edit summary explaining why the editor thinks it is important enough to re-insert as he/she did might be nice. Tvoz |talk 22:38, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It is interesting, but it is more trivia than anything else.--Gloriamarie 22:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, and no reason has been forthcoming, so I'm removing it. Tvoz |talk 05:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

jeanne (talk) 08:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Last Name

Per the way subjects are handled in most Wikipedia articles (examples of First Ladies: Betty Ford and Lady Bird Johnson), shouldn't she be referred to by her last name during the course of the article? I suppose it's difficult because she had different last names at different times, but as with Betty Ford, she could be referred to by her maiden name of "Bouvier" and then her married name of "Onassis," to avoid confusion with JFK. I see that this also came up in the featured article discussion, so it does need to be corrected.--Gloriamarie 22:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC) ==The Lee family.I have read that the Lee's were originally Jewish.I believe her great-grandfather but I find nothing about Jewish ancestry in the article.I'll do more research and see if I can be more specific.jeanne (talk) 16:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Jacqueline's words after the JFK assassination

Her quote to Lady Bird Johnson "I want people to see what THEY have done to Jack" is important. Surely, it is further testimony to the probability that Oswald did not act alone.jeanne (talk) 08:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

More likely she was expressing spontaneous dislike for Texas - both as an East coast woman in redneck land and in view of the rampant hatred of her husband in the state, which she was well aware of. Anyway, you have to count in that she was in shock at that point and had no idea of who or what Lee Oswald was. /Strausszek (talk) 22:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Jacqueline spoke to writer Theodore H. White (November 29, 1963) <http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/Camelot.pdf>

They were gunning the motorcycles; there were these little backfires; there was one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire. Then next I saw Connelly grabbing his arms and saying `no no no nonono,' with his fist beating--then Jack turned and I turned--all I remember was a blue gray building up ahead; then Jack turned back, so neatly; his last expression was so neat; he had his hand out, I could see a piece of his skull coming off; it was flesh colored not white--he was holding out his hand--and I can see this perfectly clean piece detaching itself from his head; then he slumped in my lap...Then Clint Hill, he loved us, he was the first man in the car...we all lay down in the car and I kept saying `Jack, Jack, Jack' and someone was yelling `he's dead he's dead.' All the ride to the hospital I kept bending over him saying `Jack, Jack can you hear me, I love you Jack.' I kept holding the top of his head down trying to keep the...that long ride to the hospital...these big Texan interns kept saying `Mrs. Kennedy you come with us,' they wanted to take me away from him. Dave Powers came running to me, my legs my hands were covered with his brains...when Dave Powers saw this he burst out weeping. From here down"(here Mrs. Kennedy made a gesture about the level of the forehead above the eyes) "his head was so beautiful. I'd tried to hold the top of his head down, maybe I could keep it in...I knew he was dead... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.221.101 (talk) 19:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Descendant of Antony Janse van Salee?

In the Roll Family genealogy (http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~windmill/html/murad%20reis.html) it is mentioned that one of JKO's forefathers was the mulatto son of the notorious corsair Jan Janszoon van Haarlem, Antony Janse van Salee, also known as "The Terrible Turk" (this nickname referred to his having embraced Islam rather than Turkish ancestry, as his father was Dutch and his mother a Moorish concubine); is there any family tree available to support this claim? Frank Landsman (talk) 16:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Reaction after the shooting

I distinctly remember a Lenny Bruce show were he talks about Jackie Kennedy's controversy on wether or not she was trying to run away after the president was shot (it says here she was trying to get a piece of his skull?, that sounds weird), the controversy was that if indeed she was trying to do what every human being would have done at that momment (to run away from there) then the american public would had seen it as "unamerican".190.160.128.111 (talk) 14:08, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Your comments server as a reminder that anyone can edit a Wikipedia article, even the mentally ill. Cheers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.187.190.208 (talk) 01:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Factual

How can anyone deny that Jackie Kennedy had charm, style and elegance ? Why then, 45 years after she ceased being First Lady and 14 years after her death, does she still fascinate ? Who remembers Mamie Eisenhower and Bess Truman ? If that isn't factual, what is ? --Marleau (talk) 15:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I share the sentiment. She is an example of timeless elegance and beauty and her legacy will grace history forever. --Dr.K. (talk) 03:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, it's pretty easy to deny it, if the only source is the talk page of her article. Go away. 88.235.89.130 (talk) 21:09, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean, no one remembers Mamie or Bess? I remember them quite well. And Eleanor, too. Did she have style or elegance? I don't think so. If Jackie O hadn't married Jack, this article wouldn't even exist. So much for the power of her "style" and "elegance". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.117.175 (talk) 02:00, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

There's no trouble finding lots of reliable citations confirming her status as a fashion icon and a person who symbolized elegance. Especially 'cause it was before the age when supermodels became famous people in that sense. The main trouble is protecting those references fom some internet troll who will say "Uh, I haven't heard of those people saying Jackie was a fashion influence, I like Marge Simpson!"

Revamp of this page

Am in the process of doing a bit of a revamp here - I'm fixing some of the bias and weasel wording, as well as making the article more concise - there are far too many sub-sections and information is often in inappropriate places (e.g., "Kennedy ranks among the most popular of the First Ladies" is not appropriate where it currently is - "First Lady" - but should be moved to a section about her legacy and the way she's remembered). Unfortunately though, I don't have much more knowledge of/expertise on Onassis than the average American would. Any help from more knowledgeable people who can do more than just copy edit would be much appreciated, as this article is in desperate need of a serious overhaul. Abootface (talk) 13:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Slowly trying to improve this article

Hi everyone - new to Wikipedia here. Since I have an extensive library of books and magazines (dating to the 1950s) on Jacqueline Kennedy [Onassis] and the Kennedy family in general, I'm trying (slowly but surely) to improve this article. I'm still learning the ropes as far as editing goes, so it may take some time - thanks for any and all help! :-) EmeraldCrystals (talk) 16:48, 3 October 2009 (UTC)EmeraldCrystals

Name referencing

For most of the article in its current state, JBK is referred to as just "Kennedy". It doesn't sound very right - like it or not, if the name is put in isolation most people will instantly think of Jack or Bobby. Now this one unavoidably mentions John F Kennedy a lot, so it comes out not just boorish but confusing. In the assassination/burial sectaon there were some turns that sounded downright strange, e.g. "After his death, Kennedy refused to remove her blood-stained clothing, and regretted having washed the blood off her face..."

I changed that one to "After the president's death, Mrs.Kennedy refused to remove her blood-stained clothing, and regretted having washed the blood off her face..."

Also changed "Kennedy" to "the widow" a few times.. The text would run much smoother if "Mrs.Kennedy", "his wife", "the First Lady" or occasionally "Mrs.Onassis" were brought in. And of course no referencing as "Kennedy" before their marriage (there are none of them now, but I suspect the one who imposed "Kennedy" in the main part of the article may have had weak insight in name habits in English) /Strausszek (talk) 22:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

See WP: Surname for style guidelines on this. Tvoz/talk 03:07, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Portrait pic needs realigning

The picture of Jackie's White House portrait (Jacqueline Lee Bouvier Kennedy.gif, in the life-after-JFK section) seems to be aligned with the text so that it creates a void when you edit. I removed some unsourced and misleading material from that part and it created a white space that doesn't seem easy to remove. I'm sure it's to do with the picture, so could someone resize it or realign it? /Strausszek (talk) 12:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

She deserves better

than a cobbled-together group of anecdotes that serve to glorify her. The earlier sections are OK, I guess, but the sections on her time as First Lady, the assassination of JFK, and her later life are long, rambling, anecdotal, and written in altogether far too biased a manner. I don't know much about Jackie but I plan on reading up on her and attempting to make this article something more factual and encyclopedic. Petitscel (talk) 16:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Jackie's "excommunication"

It never happened. Reference 1, reference 2. I recently removed such (uncited) info from the article so please do not re-add it. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 14:59, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

It "never happened" because the Church, apparently as a special favor to the Kennedy family, decided not to do it. The references you cite, however, indicate that she was barred from receiving the sacraments and committed an act equivalent to renouncing the Catholic faith. Please explain how that is not the functional equivalent of excommunication. A rose by any other name . . . John Paul Parks (talk) 01:03, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

The bloodstained 'Chanel' suit is not Chanel

Jackie Kennedy's suit is not Chanel, as stated in the article, however it is an American imitation designed specifically to look like Chanel. Her love of French fashions were banned by jerks like McCarthy for being "un-American", so it is in fact an American design. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIX8ccmx13M I know it's a YouTube video so it can't be used as a reference, but I'm just proving a factual point -- Patyo1994 (talk) 16:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Could we please have a citation in support of your statement that Sen. McCarthy attempted to tell Jacqueline Kennedy what she could and could not wear? John Paul Parks (talk) 01:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

It will be interesting to see how he accomplished it, since he died in 1957, and Mrs. Kennedy did not become first lady until 1961. John Paul Parks (talk) 01:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Jacquie's Jewish heritage

I have noticed that the wiki page does not mention Jacqueline's Jewish Heritage. Can you read this article and see what you think: http://www.mitchellmoss.com/oped/94-06-10-jewishworld.html This article was written by a prominent writer and academic called Mitchell Moss, info about him is available here http://www.mitchellmoss.com/. I think the information is reliable.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.193.231 (talk) 16:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

That article says nothing of the sort. - Special-T (talk) 23:32, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Cause Of Death Coverd-Up?

Okay, I and a few others that I am aware of, remember news stories of an accident in the hospital where Jackie was exposed to roughly 10,000 times the normal radiation level in treatment. This occured shortly before her death and her health drastically declined after the accident. Prior to the accident she was reported in relative good health and was believed to have a good chance a survival. Then the "cover-up" happened. I use quotes because I'm not suggesting it's a conspiracy but now there seems to be no reference at all to the accident at the hospital. Now the story is that her health just drastically declined and she died. Does anybody else find this strange? If anybody can find any reports or articles on the accident she suffered at the hospital, do update this page.BoyintheMachine (talk) 20:15, 17 December 2010 (UTC)