Talk:Java/Archive 2

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Requested move 12 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: there is clearly consensus not to move the pages as set out in the proposal, which still appears to entail switching the primary topics. There may be cause to discuss moving Java (disambiguation) to Java as suggested by the later edit to the request, but in that case it is clear that discussion will need to start over in order to reach any sort of consensus to move. Closing without prejudice against a subsequent request of that type. However, please note that in the current discussion there have already been some objections to moving the disambiguation page. Dekimasuよ! 12:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

– not WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in light of the popularity of the Java (programming language) Prisencolin (talk) 21:35, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Edit: The proposal will make Java (this current page title) as a DAB page.--Prisencolin (talk) 05:24, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - Java (programming language). has received way more pageviews than Java. "Java language" has also surpassed "island of Java" in Google Ngrams... in 1994. Google Trends tells a similar story. <RetroCraft314 /> 00:38, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose what is proposed. But I can *weakly support* making Java the disambiguation page for compromise, that's far better than what's proposed. It will contain all the pages and serve them one-click away to reader. The island clearly has historical and natural vantage of claiming the base name. Note that Java programming language got the name from the island through Java →West Java→Java Coffee →Java (prog. lang). –Ammarpad (talk) 03:05, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment. I can tell you that Wikipedians just don't it this way. People's heads will explode before anything like this is allowed. You must specify where the lemma "Java" will point to at the end of the move. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 05:24, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose - this has been debated so many times before, this must have been the cycle when this starts up again. Popularity of a subject from a particular demographic does not make a subject an obvious choice. The coffee, the island all have precedence; in that the programming language is for those who are focused upon it, is fine - they can have their attitude and views and hits and things - the island came first, and should if we believe the precedence of the weird and wonderful primacy edit wars of years ago, it should sustain the position. If however this proposal goes for the unwelcome decision of changing - then I go with ammarpad, and say this becomes a disambuiguation, under duress and annoyance that the previous many attempts to play this havent been sufficient to make this a redundant proposal. JarrahTree 05:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose At least with the current arrangement, some proportion of the searching public get the page they want when they arrive here. With a disambiguation page here, no one will. It would be rude and boorish to place the programming language above the country it is named after and put that here. I think the present arrangement is as good as we're going to get, with simple hat-notes doing all the work, simply and directly. --Nigelj (talk) 08:06, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose. How can the world's most populous (over 140 million) island not be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? It boggles the mind. Everything else is named after the island.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Island of 141 million, in a country of 261 million people, Java was also at the centre of the largest natural disaster in modern times. Yes every time a new piece of software comes out the google hit rate on java will increases a 100 fold because of advertising that doesnt raise the importance of the programming language to being the primary topic. The level of disruption the move would cause is significant and even afterwards the amount of on going maintenance just to keep Java disambiguated would be equally time consuming and disruptive. WP:COMMONSENSE Our goal is to improve Wikipedia so that it better informs readers this move would not do that Gnangarra 09:21, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 16 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: clear consensus not to move the pages as proposed at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 21:45, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

– I opened this move request since the recent move request suggest that the current title should be about the programming language while, on the other hand, this move suggest that the current title should be disambiguation page. Although the editor that made the recent move request edited it later, he/she doesn't change the notice in the mainspace so maybe not many editor join in the discussion.

Arguments in favor of the proposed move

The programming language has more daily average pageviews than the island

Based on the pageview from July 2015–present the programming language has about 4,900 daily average pageviews while the island is 1,700.

Arguments against the proposed move (with counter arguments)

"Java" should be about the island with population more that 140 million people

Population cannot determine whether an article has a primary topic (the article is about programming language or island) or not at all (the article is disambiguation). For example Georgia (country) (with 3.7 million population) has more daily average pageview than Georgia (U.S. state) (10 million population).

The programming language is named after the island

Based on this logic then Mercury should be about the Roman god (which is not since the planet and the chemical element are named after the Roman god).

Title choice for the island article

Retains the island's common name per WP:COMMONNAME and consistency with Hawaii (island), Newfoundland (island), Malta (island), and many others. Hddty. (talk) 08:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Actually whether "Java" has primary topic or not has nothing to do with List of islands by population. --Hddty. (talk) 10:00, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Wikipedia:Systemic bias this the result of a focusing on a US/EU centric view. Additionally if you take out the period where Oracle & Google were in court the differences drop significantly, the spikes in Java page views are more significant than the programming language. Nothing in this argument addresses any reason(beyond enabling bias) to cause significant ongoing disruption that such a move will do. Gnangarra 09:55, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
The programming language has 4,900 average daily pageviews and the island 1,700 when counted after Oracle v. Google, even before that the programming language still has more pageview. I'm an Indonesian and I'm fine with this move since the term Java is ambiguous—the programming language has more daily average pageviews but there are 140 millions people that lives there so this article better be disambiguation and the primary topic here is not as obvious as between Birmingham, Alabama and Birmingham so this page better should be disambiguation. --Hddty. (talk) 15:45, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Where you're from is irrelevant to the discussion, the issue is two fold one is that it introduces a systemic bias to US/EU perspective, the second is the shear volume of disruption it will cause and the on going maintenance issues with putting the island at a disambiguation, the only good side of this proposal is that it doesnt introduce additional disruption to the programming language related articles all of this is covered in Wikipedia:Recentism. Gnangarra 03:24, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose, mostly because I see no need to move it. VibeScepter (talk) (contributions) 11:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose, sorry but I think the Java island is still very important, maybe it's because my regional geographic context, however, I think the above arguments are still not convincing to me. --Liang (WMTW) (talk) 12:42, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose as in previous move arguments, where I have stated very clearly the issues that bedevil any attempt to move. JarrahTree 13:00, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose, per WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:COMMONNAME. The island is the origin of other derivative names. Plus this most populated island IS important, especially for its native inhabitant like me (sorry this is personal). For a non programmer common computer/internet user, I do not familiar with, do not care, nor use the Java programming language. Plus I do not call coffee as Java, since my coffee is most likely came from Sumatra instead. This redundant attempt on moving/renaming proposal is actually a bias. The island is more tangible than a computer program. Supposed there is a global war, nuclear armageddon, global catastrophe or deadly pandemic that wiped up most of humanity; the internet crash and the computer technology are unusable or forgotten. Java island still will be here, while the Java programming might be lost or unknown. Gunkarta  talk  15:19, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
I understand that the island should be the primary topic because of the number of its population in respect of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC but Java (programming language) has more pageview, even when the unusual high pageviews because Oracle America, Inc. v. Google, Inc. ignored. Make the programming language the primary topic would be worse so I think that better this page become a disambiguation, while still retains the island and the programming language in the lead like Georgia and New York. --Hddty. (talk) 16:18, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
No.., still did not convince me to move Java to Java (island). I think current arrangements on Java island as a main article is correct, no need to change. And on top of it we already provides linking/referring to Java (disambiguation) page for reader who wish to access other Java derivatives entity (programming, coffee, other places named after Java etc.). Pageviews counts might change in the future and not a solid arguments for this matter. Gunkarta  talk  03:04, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Please, get up from your couch, change from your pyjamas, and go outside into the real world. —  AjaxSmack  15:26, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose, this is the classic case of Apple and Apple Inc.. Current popularity is not the only thing that's important. Apples and the island of Java have been notable for a long time, will remain notable for a very long time and are mostly equally notable around the world (with the exception of Indonesia). Apple Inc. and the Java programming langauge, meanwhile, have no guarantees of enduring notability and are not equally notable in many of the world's regions. Consider these things on top of the other arguments already presented. Prinsgezinde (talk) 18:08, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
"Apple" should about the fruit because every kids in the world most probably hear or know "Apple" is a fruit since it's the basic teaching of English language, readers that expected to see Apple Inc. should not be confused to see "Apple" in Wikipedia search suggestion; in the same case readers may have confusion in a split second. --Hddty. (talk) 00:38, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Java as a programming language is only known to few software geeks or in jargon of those who care to know and it's usage may diminish significantly in near future with proliferation of newer technologies while the island retains the enduring historical vantage of having the name before anything else. The hatnote in the article is sufficient. –Ammarpad (talk) 04:48, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Java will still be there long after memories of the 90s programming language have vanished. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:08, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per all the above. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 07:52, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose – the island was way more historical significance than the programming language. CookieMonster755✉ 01:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Oh, come on. A move like this really would lend weight to the argument that Wikipedia is biased in favour of computer nerds. The island's long-term significance is far greater than any other meaning of the word. To most people the island is the primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:40, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Disagreement about primary topic and disambiguation page

I was checking the most visited pages on wikipedia here and it turns out this article is the most viewed. I honestly doubt that all these people visiting are expecting to see an article about an island on Indonesia. I assume they are looking for the Java (programming language). Don't you think that this "Java" article should by default be about the programming language? 201.54.129.39 (talk) 20:25, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I just noticed there is a huge discussion above about this same issue. How can you possibly oppose that? Java is literally the most popular article on wikipedia and I honestly doubt all these people are interested in the island. Much bigger islands or countries have a much higher population and yet they don't have nearly as many views. It is obvious that not so many people are interested in the island, and the people who live in the island will check wikipedia on their language, not the english wikipedia 201.54.129.39 (talk) 20:33, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

If we googling by keywords Wikipedia Java, so in the first found is Java (programming language) and the second found is Java: Java is an island of Indonesia. With a population of over 141 million. So, one Java Island population is greater than a whole Japan Country population. Means people can choose which one will be read without any doubt.Gsarwa (talk) 06:28, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
I think that Java should be disambiguation page, instead of being an article for an island or a programming language. Hddty. (talk) 03:07, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello. I also think that Java should be a disambiguation page because the island is not the primary topic. Java should be moved to Java (island). Java is not neccesarily the most likely to be intended.
HappyMouse2 (talk) 03:50, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
I have changed the section topic to "disagreement about primary topic and disambiguation page". HappyMouse2 (talk) 03:53, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
@HappyMouse2: We have discussed such a change regularly, the last time being three months ago here. I agree with you: most of my time on Wikipedia is spent fixing bad links such as "the software is written in Java and C#". However, most editors disagree, and can cite policies and guidelines to back up their opposition. We could raise the matter again in a few years to see whether the mood has changed. Certes (talk) 09:47, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Per Pageview Analysis, it seems that the programming language is the primary topic for the term "Java". Google search results show the language too, and rarely the island (unless I didnt look hard enough). Sure, Java may be historial, but the language has been more important. 2600:1011:B147:9987:E84C:B478:EDED:725 (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

I also agree, the Java language should be about the programming languageSpidersMilk, Drink Spider Milk, it tastes good. (talk) 17:59, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

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Java Island area — Wikipedia gives two different figures

Wikipedia gives two conflicting figures for the area of Java Island, one in the opening paragraph of the article, and the other in both the chart in the main body of the article and also in the summary column at the upper right corner of the first page. The figure used by the Encyclopedia Britannica conforms with the figure in the chart and the summary. Cam-m-smith (talk) 04:33, 1 April 2018 (UTC) Cameron Smith (Cam-m-smith)


Lowercase Google Title

If you google "island of java", the wikipedia listing is lowercase: https://i.imgur.com/pG9Vtfq.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.208.213.34 (talk) 10:48, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Java

I was asked to write on Talk. I've reinserted the comments. They are relevant. Thanks.113.197.13.138 (talk) 05:59, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

You need to explain why additions of "Christmas Island (which belongs to Australia), is about 300 kilometres away." is relevant to the subject, otherwise it'll be reverted. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Not relevant - please note that continued re-insertion and relevance are not what fits into general editing principles as found in WP:NOT and WP:ABOUT - some editors might consider your insertions as WP:OR in that there are no added WP:RS or rationale - you might as well say that any one location is x miles/kilometres from Z - and add that to articles anywhere on wikipedia - it misses the point. Please either find some very convincing reliable source that actually qualifies in a substantial way as to why the insertion is being repeatedly added - otherwise to do so without adequate and coherent explanation - then stop now, or you will find yourself blocked. Substance is required - that is WP:V - relevance is not part of the vocabulary of editing wikipedia. JarrahTree 07:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
You were asked to use the talk page to establish (ie, show) that they are relevant, get agreement for your change, then add the content if you get agreement. --Merbabu (talk) 07:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I doubt that there will be a consensus in favor of characterizing the location of 138,793.6 km²-sized Java by its distance to a randomly selected 135 km²-sized island. This information remains irrelevant, unless there are reliable sources which verify that those 135 km² are the Navel of the World. –Austronesier (talk) 08:35, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Agreed, i can't see how it's relevant. Relevant to Christmas Island maybe, but not to Java. The same way as the proximity to the Eiffel Tower might be relevant to a cafe in Paris, but the cafe is not relevant to the Eiffel Tower.
Currently it's an "is-isn't" edit war between 1 editor and another 5. --Merbabu (talk) 08:56, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Java and Sumatra are mentioned in the Christmas Island article already. Christmas Island also belongs to another country (Australia), so I see no reason to delete my edit. Looking at the map, you will find that it is the only part of Australia which is in close proximity to Java and Sumatra. Just as an example, if Singapore was close to this island, then I would add it here. 113.197.13.138 (talk) 06:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Yes, we have already said that Java can be mentioned in the Christmas Island article. But that doesn't mean that we need to mention Christmas Island in the Java article. And, Singapore would be relevant to Java if it was close. But, that doesn't mean that Christmas Island is relevant to Java. Unless you have something new to raise, then I suggest this discussion is exhausted. --08:25, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
So why can't we mention Christmas Island then? It is close to Java. You've just said that we could add Singapore to the article, if Singapore was close. Do you have something against Australia?? 113.197.13.138 (talk) 08:11, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
read the comments above - very carefully, each one - your last question gives the impression that you have not read the comments and the reasoning what makes a valid contribution to wikipedia - if you dont get it, we cannot help much further JarrahTree 08:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Disagreement about primary topic and disambiguation page

I was checking the most visited pages on wikipedia here and it turns out this article is the most viewed. I honestly doubt that all these people visiting are expecting to see an article about an island on Indonesia. I assume they are looking for the Java (programming language). Don't you think that this "Java" article should by default be about the programming language? 201.54.129.39 (talk) 20:25, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I just noticed there is a huge discussion above about this same issue. How can you possibly oppose that? Java is literally the most popular article on wikipedia and I honestly doubt all these people are interested in the island. Much bigger islands or countries have a much higher population and yet they don't have nearly as many views. It is obvious that not so many people are interested in the island, and the people who live in the island will check wikipedia on their language, not the english wikipedia 201.54.129.39 (talk) 20:33, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

If we googling by keywords Wikipedia Java, so in the first found is Java (programming language) and the second found is Java: Java is an island of Indonesia. With a population of over 141 million. So, one Java Island population is greater than a whole Japan Country population. Means people can choose which one will be read without any doubt.Gsarwa (talk) 06:28, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
I think that Java should be disambiguation page, instead of being an article for an island or a programming language. Hddty. (talk) 03:07, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello. I also think that Java should be a disambiguation page because the island is not the primary topic. Java should be moved to Java (island). Java is not neccesarily the most likely to be intended.
HappyMouse2 (talk) 03:50, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
I have changed the section topic to "disagreement about primary topic and disambiguation page". HappyMouse2 (talk) 03:53, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
@HappyMouse2: We have discussed such a change regularly, the last time being three months ago here. I agree with you: most of my time on Wikipedia is spent fixing bad links such as "the software is written in Java and C#". However, most editors disagree, and can cite policies and guidelines to back up their opposition. We could raise the matter again in a few years to see whether the mood has changed. Certes (talk) 09:47, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Per Pageview Analysis, it seems that the programming language is the primary topic for the term "Java". Google search results show the language too, and rarely the island (unless I didnt look hard enough). Sure, Java may be historial, but the language has been more important. 2600:1011:B147:9987:E84C:B478:EDED:725 (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

I also agree, the Java language should be about the programming languageSpidersMilk, Drink Spider Milk, it tastes good. (talk) 17:59, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

External links modified

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:11, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Java Island area — Wikipedia gives two different figures

Wikipedia gives two conflicting figures for the area of Java Island, one in the opening paragraph of the article, and the other in both the chart in the main body of the article and also in the summary column at the upper right corner of the first page. The figure used by the Encyclopedia Britannica conforms with the figure in the chart and the summary. Cam-m-smith (talk) 04:33, 1 April 2018 (UTC) Cameron Smith (Cam-m-smith)


Lowercase Google Title

If you google "island of java", the wikipedia listing is lowercase: https://i.imgur.com/pG9Vtfq.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.208.213.34 (talk) 10:48, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Java

I was asked to write on Talk. I've reinserted the comments. They are relevant. Thanks.113.197.13.138 (talk) 05:59, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

You need to explain why additions of "Christmas Island (which belongs to Australia), is about 300 kilometres away." is relevant to the subject, otherwise it'll be reverted. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Not relevant - please note that continued re-insertion and relevance are not what fits into general editing principles as found in WP:NOT and WP:ABOUT - some editors might consider your insertions as WP:OR in that there are no added WP:RS or rationale - you might as well say that any one location is x miles/kilometres from Z - and add that to articles anywhere on wikipedia - it misses the point. Please either find some very convincing reliable source that actually qualifies in a substantial way as to why the insertion is being repeatedly added - otherwise to do so without adequate and coherent explanation - then stop now, or you will find yourself blocked. Substance is required - that is WP:V - relevance is not part of the vocabulary of editing wikipedia. JarrahTree 07:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
You were asked to use the talk page to establish (ie, show) that they are relevant, get agreement for your change, then add the content if you get agreement. --Merbabu (talk) 07:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I doubt that there will be a consensus in favor of characterizing the location of 138,793.6 km²-sized Java by its distance to a randomly selected 135 km²-sized island. This information remains irrelevant, unless there are reliable sources which verify that those 135 km² are the Navel of the World. –Austronesier (talk) 08:35, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Agreed, i can't see how it's relevant. Relevant to Christmas Island maybe, but not to Java. The same way as the proximity to the Eiffel Tower might be relevant to a cafe in Paris, but the cafe is not relevant to the Eiffel Tower.
Currently it's an "is-isn't" edit war between 1 editor and another 5. --Merbabu (talk) 08:56, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Java and Sumatra are mentioned in the Christmas Island article already. Christmas Island also belongs to another country (Australia), so I see no reason to delete my edit. Looking at the map, you will find that it is the only part of Australia which is in close proximity to Java and Sumatra. Just as an example, if Singapore was close to this island, then I would add it here. 113.197.13.138 (talk) 06:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Yes, we have already said that Java can be mentioned in the Christmas Island article. But that doesn't mean that we need to mention Christmas Island in the Java article. And, Singapore would be relevant to Java if it was close. But, that doesn't mean that Christmas Island is relevant to Java. Unless you have something new to raise, then I suggest this discussion is exhausted. --08:25, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
So why can't we mention Christmas Island then? It is close to Java. You've just said that we could add Singapore to the article, if Singapore was close. Do you have something against Australia?? 113.197.13.138 (talk) 08:11, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
read the comments above - very carefully, each one - your last question gives the impression that you have not read the comments and the reasoning what makes a valid contribution to wikipedia - if you dont get it, we cannot help much further JarrahTree 08:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
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