Talk:Jerry Shriver

This article was nominated for deletion on 18 March 2024. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Awards and Decorations

First off, the unit and qualification badges aren't really decorations or awards (and the one from MACVSOG isn't even official). Second, the dates on many of these don't seem correct. Shriver would have had more than four campaign stars on the Vietnam Service Medal in all probability since he'd been in-country since 1966 or so. I also think we should trim the descriptions for each award...they're linked already so the verbiage isn't really needed (and doesn't line up with the practice in other articles).Intothat darkness 12:15, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I couldn't find a ribbon for the Vietnam service medal with 4 stars, you are correct he did in fact get 4 stars but there isn't an image for that. And what do you mean by trim the description? should we just cut the descriptions of each medal but leave the link to the wiki page? TheTankman (talk) 16:00, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What's the source for the number of campaign stars? That count feels low to me based on his time in-country. And yes, we should just have the wikilinks to the pages. That's standard for articles like this. Intothat darkness 23:56, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In my source it said that he had 3 bronze stars an 1 gold star on the Vietnam service medal. TheTankman (talk) 13:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, what is that source? And those devices actually work out to eight or nine service medals, which sounds closer for his time in-country. Intothat darkness 14:03, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://army.togetherweserved.com/army/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=SBVTimeLine&type=Person&ID=68593 TheTankman (talk) 17:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The challenge with this is it's user-created and not subject to RS verification. I suspect most of it's correct, but we'd need something more solid to support it. The major decorations (silver star, bronze star) are listed in RS so they're easy enough to verify. Intothat darkness 00:08, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are some other sources of the awards on the article I put. I tried searching for other sources many times but I couldn't find anything other than the ones already on the article. TheTankman (talk) 07:33, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are some errors in the Awards & Decorations:

(1) Unit insignia is not considered either an award or a decoration. That being said, an "unofficial unit patch" is quite common in combat and is of historical value.

(2) Either the description is incorrect or the picture shown for the Silver Star is incorrect. As shown the ribbon includes two oak leaf clusters, which indicate three awards of the Silver Star. First award gets a ribbon, and subsequent awards up to five get an oak leaf cluster each. I believe the cited reference accounts for two awards of the Silver Star, thus what should be shown is a Silver Star ribbon with a single oak leaf cluster, not two.

(3) The illustration showing two copies of the Bronze Star ribbon is correct IF MSG Shriver was awarded five Bronze Stars, one with a "V" device. Why? The rules are you wear a second copy if you would end up with more than four devices on a single ribbon AND if you are award a "V" device with more than a single award, you are supposed to wear an oak leaf cluster along with the "V" device. Thus a soldier with two Bronze Star awards, one with a "V" authorized, would wear a single ribbon with an oak leaf cluster and a "V" device to indicate that they had received more than one Bronze Star award. In the case where four Bronze Stars are awarded, one with a "V" device, there should be a single ribbon with three oak leaf clusters and one "V" device. I don't know what MSG Shriver's Bronze Star award count is. If MSG Shriver was award five Bronze Stars with no "V" authorized for any of them, he'd wear a single ribbon with four oak leaf clusters.

(4) The Army Commendation Medal ("Arcom") duplication is wrong. There should be a single Arcom with an oak leaf cluster and a "V" device. This is "read" as having been awarded two Arcoms with one being awarded for valor.

(5) The US Military uses the "National Defense Service Medal" NOT the National Defence Medal, a French Military decoration. The hyperlink is also incorrect.

(6) The discussion on the Vietnam Service Medal should be based upon how many awards of that Medal can be verified. 1 gold star and 3 bronze stars signifies exactly NINE awards, not "eight or nine". You NEVER get a star for the first award, that's what the ribbon itself is. A gold star ADDS five awards to the ribbon. Each bronze star ADDS one award to the ribbon. You never have more than four devices on any ribbon,

(7) Regarding the marksmanship qualification badges, you'd only wear two different levels of badge with the same bar, in this case "RIFLE", if you qual'ed with two different rifles at different levels. In practice you'd never wear them (more on this later). The description for the Expert badge says "Rifle and Machinegun". If it is the case that MSG Shriver qualed as Expert in both, the correct illustration is a separate "MACHINEGUN" bar under the "RIFLE" bar. If MSG Shriver's qualifications were "Sharpshooter" on rifle and "Expert" on machinegun, the illustration for rifle is correct and the illustration for machinegun should not show the "RIFLE" bar but the "MACHINEGUN" bar. Very rarely does any solider wear two bars for the same type of weapon, even when authorized, because it becomes a source of ridicule. If you qualed as a Sharpshooter on one rifle (say an M-14 back then) and as an expert on a different rifle (say an M-16 back then), a soldier would wear only the Expert badge with a single RIFLE bar. I doubt MSG Shriver would violate this unspoken practice of Soldiers. To wear multiple badges with bars for the same weapon type is considered the mark of an "armchair commando" or a REMF (Rear Echelon MF).

(8) Even the "Together We Served" illustrations are incorrect. They claim Shriver was awarded five Bronze Stars, of which only one was NOT for Valor. If that is correct, Shriver would wear two ribbons: a single ribbon with four Vs on it and a single ribbon with no devices at all.

References re devices and number of ribbons: https://www.hrc.army.mil/wcmt-api/sites/default/wcmtfiles/files/18044_0.pdf Carrellk (talk) 07:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Location of disappearance

Where did the information which claims that shriver disappeared in Cambodia come from? I researched it and it says that he disappeared in Laos (coordinates: 16° 50' 48" N 106° 31' 58" E). So which location is right? TheTankman (talk) 16:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go through my sources, but as I recall it was in Cambodia. Intothat darkness 23:55, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to Moore (p295) Shriver went missing on a BDA mission in Cambodia on 24 April. Plaster says the same thing (p234), claiming the mission was a BDA into Cambodia and that the supposed target of the B-52 strike was COSVN (14 miles SE of Memot). Shirver was leading a CCS Hatchet Force on the mission. Intothat darkness 00:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was able to find a more exact location of his disappearance, according to this source: https://www.macvsog.cc/shriver,_jerry.htm the area of disappearance was "14 miles southeast of Memot, Cambodia; 20 miles southeast of Quan Loi and 28 miles northeast of Tay Ninh, South Vietnam.", that area specifically is called "Choam" and "Choam Kravien" which is in the south part of the Memot District. So this might be the specific area of disappearance. TheTankman (talk) 13:45, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's also given in other print sources. I'd prefer to use those, as there's no question about them being RS. That website is driven by user-submitted content and may not be reliable. Intothat darkness 13:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources and Copyright

So far there have been a couple of copyright issues here, and the sourcing is kind of shaky as well. I'll be able to get at more of my RS in the next couple of weeks, so maybe major changes should be stopped until then. And we really need to focus on proper use of RS. Intothat darkness 01:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why was my last addition removed? I did not copy and paste it from the site. TheTankman (talk) 08:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't remove it, but I would guess the language used was just too close the original. I plan to go through this article once things settle down where I am and do some major work. The sections on Shriver's early service need some work, for example. He didn't start off with MACVSOG (no matter what that website might say...I doubt it's a sold RS in any case). Intothat darkness 12:05, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]