Talk:Jesus Christus unser Heiland
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Structure
[edit]What do you think of saying on top that there are two songs with the same beginning, structure all other entries in two groups by song, and possibly get them in chronological order? Just a suggestion, I don't want to interfer with your editorial choice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
- Re. "two songs with the same beginning" – which two songs? (note: the title of the Schubert/Klopstock song/poem is not its incipit, click the link D 168A)
- Re. "chronological order" – Both Luther hymns were published for the first time in 1524 in the same publication: I don't see a possibility to order chronologically there.
- Alphabetical order seems most logical imho. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:46, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
- I was not clear, sorry. By two songs I mean the two Luther hymns which came before Schubert. I would mention one of them first (alpha or whatever) with (indented) all derived works, then the other (with the derived works), then Schubert which seems only to allude to Luther. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
- I have found no source linking either the Klopstock poem, or its derivative work, the Schubert part-song, to Luther. Deutsch doesn't link them (although usually quite thorough in linking text versions of Schubert's songs to still earlier text models and their antecedents), LiederNet Archive doesn't link them, the melody of Schubert's song (in Deutsch, at IMSLP) seems not to have any relation to Luther's hymn tune(s), the texts also seem to have quite different metres, etc. So if you can find a reliable source that contends that Klopstock's text alludes to Luther's hymn please present it. If not, we can't present it as a derivative work, or even suggest they are linked, or imply that Klopstock alluded to Luther. I'm a bit quizzed by "Schubert which seems (...) to allude to Luther" for that reason. Tantalizing suggestion, but please avoid WP:OR. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
- Difficult language. By "only alludes" I mean it's NOT among the derived works of Luther I or Luther II, but a third on the same level as I and II. No source needed for that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:35, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
- Afaik, it doesn't allude. We don't do "the first two alphabetical and the third chronological," so I fail to see any points that would need further discussion. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:48, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
- Difficult language. By "only alludes" I mean it's NOT among the derived works of Luther I or Luther II, but a third on the same level as I and II. No source needed for that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:35, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
- I have found no source linking either the Klopstock poem, or its derivative work, the Schubert part-song, to Luther. Deutsch doesn't link them (although usually quite thorough in linking text versions of Schubert's songs to still earlier text models and their antecedents), LiederNet Archive doesn't link them, the melody of Schubert's song (in Deutsch, at IMSLP) seems not to have any relation to Luther's hymn tune(s), the texts also seem to have quite different metres, etc. So if you can find a reliable source that contends that Klopstock's text alludes to Luther's hymn please present it. If not, we can't present it as a derivative work, or even suggest they are linked, or imply that Klopstock alluded to Luther. I'm a bit quizzed by "Schubert which seems (...) to allude to Luther" for that reason. Tantalizing suggestion, but please avoid WP:OR. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
- I was not clear, sorry. By two songs I mean the two Luther hymns which came before Schubert. I would mention one of them first (alpha or whatever) with (indented) all derived works, then the other (with the derived works), then Schubert which seems only to allude to Luther. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Schubert?
[edit]Who may be responsible for the information that Franz Schubert composed a "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland, der den Tod überwand"? Schubert, it's true, set to music a text by Klopstock "Überwunden hat der Herr den Tod" which Klopstock intended to be sung with Luther's melody (in the 18th-century version). Schubert however composed a completely new music with no affinity to the Lutheran hymn ([1]). --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 15:09, 22 April 2023 (UTC)