Talk:Jews Don't Count

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Jews Don't Count/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 18:28, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments

I'll have a go at this one. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:28, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks a lot!  Frzzl  talk; contribs  19:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

It reads pretty well. I've fixed a couple of minor issues in the text; a few more are listed below.

Lead

• "differently than" => "differently from", since this is British English.

• "by Jewish and Israeli press" => "by the Jewish ...", as above.

Done - F

Done - F

Background

• An excellent section, very helpful.

Thanks! - F

Synopsis

• "differently to" => "differently from", as above.

• "the literary ... industries". Is "literary" an "industry" like "film" or "steel"? Don't think so.
  • OK, tentatively replaced with "literary ecosystem". - F

• "the prerogative term 'Yid'"? Perhaps "derogatory" is intended? Same again further down.
  • Silly me, I meant to write "pejorative"! Fixed. - F

• "non-Jewish actors being cast to play Jewish roles show that" => "the casting of non-Jewish actors to play Jewish roles shows that".

• "explores Jewish actors hiding" => "explores how Jewish actors hide".

• Wikilink Zionism.

• "Publication and reception" --- odd bedfellows; the usual rule for headings is "just one subject", so the word "and" is a small warning flag. I suggest that since the first paragraph takes care of "Publication", we make that a separate section. "Reception" can then begin with the second paragraph.

• Sarah Annes Brown is not just redlinked on English Wiki, but absent from all other Wikis, so the "Wikidata" link isn't terribly helpful (and I'd say it was anomalous, really). Best ditch it.

• "referring to it a 'mini masterpiece" => "calling it a 'mini...'"

• " criticising that Baddiel 'ducks the challenge'" => "stating that..."

Done others - F

Documentary adaptation

• Suggest renaming the subsection "Reception" to "Reception of documentary" so we don't have two sections with the same name.

Done - F

Images

• Images all properly licensed on Commons, and all seem reasonably relevant.

Sources

• What's going on with the Primary refs, in refs [1] .. [4] we have four different formats? I'd suggest that the style of [1] is correct for all four of 'em, and we should have the full citation for the book below (in "Sources" or similar), just once.

• "Secondary" refs [1] and [21] are by Baddiel himself ...

• Not sure why Brown and Brunstein are redlinked, probably best just to remove the links here.

Removed redlinks, have moved the secondary sources. To explain the messiness with the primaries: I'm using them as sources to cite the publication of each individual edition of the book (following some off-wiki advice), so there's four refs there. If I combine them into one "Sources" sfn, then the citations for the versions would be lost. What would you reccomemend doing? I could change the references over to WorldCat instead of citing the books themselves?  Frzzl  talk; contribs  21:00, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap: just mentioning you in case you haven't seen this  Frzzl  talk; contribs  10:38, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

No, as I said the initial sfn represents the right approach. Add a Sources section, list the full ref there in a cite book template, and use standard sfn refs each with different page of chapter details for all four refs. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:32, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, don't see how this works - I'm not citing different pages or chapters of the same publications, I'm citing four different editions. Those 4 refs are supposed to be the different publications of Jews Don't Count. The first edition, published in 2021, doesn't have any information about the Portuguese translation in 2022?  Frzzl  talk; contribs  11:41, 26 August 2023 (UTC)  Frzzl  talk; contribs  11:41, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Then all four editions should be cited in full with all the usual cite book parameters --- last, first, title, edition, publisher, date, isbn, either inline or in Sources. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

OK, will reformat as such 👍  Frzzl  talk; contribs  12:31, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Summary

This is a lively and interesting review that gives a good idea of its subject and how it was received. I've made only a few minor comments and hope to see this as a GA soon. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 18:25, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Jews Don't Count, but they're "thinking about pickles"? Source: "Jews Don't Count" is simply the name of the book. As for ALT2, pickles quote comes from: Baddiel, David (21 November 2022). David Baddiel: Jews Don't Count (Television production). Event occurs at 52:51.
  • ALT1: ... that Jews Don't Count? Source: See ALT0
  • ALT2: ... that according to comedian David Baddiel, Jews Don't Count, but are "thinking about pickles"? Source: See ALT0
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Valery Chekalov
  • Comment: ALT2 is a simple rehash of ALT0 if the author needs to be present.

Improved to Good Article status by Frzzl (talk). Self-nominated at 22:14, 26 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Jews Don't Count; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Article size is fine and promoted to GA within the window. However, it's asking for trouble to put such a bait-and-switch statement on the main page as "Jews don't count", even granted that that's the opposite of what the book argues. Could we have something a bit more transparent?

As for the article itself, there's a problem with the referencing: the different iterations of "Baddiel 2021" need to be differentiated (e.g. as "Baddiel 2021a") to fix the Harvard error currently being thrown up. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:26, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your review. I’m interested in where you’re finding this harv error, considering that I’ve not used any harv or sfn templates in this article; the ref that looks similar to one is manually done, and links without any issues - I have no CITEREF problems on my end.

Addressing the content of the hooks: I’m aware that they could be seen as provocative, but these are intended to be humorous and placed in the last slot. I ran these and iterations of these past multiple editors offwiki to make sure that they were suitable and not going to far, so I’d ask you to reconsider your comment - afaik transparency isn’t a dyk requirement, and these aren’t sensationalist. If you want, we can extend ALT2 to make it very clear that there is no antisemitism here to readers, but I would prefer to keep it concise.  Frzzl  talk; contribs  10:29, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I fully understand the intent of the hooks, but tone and humour don't read well on the internet: I'm thinking of seeing these screenshotted at the top of some outrage-bait article about Wikipedia being generally awful, and then read by people who don't know Wikipedia's culture, don't know what DYK is and won't click the link. To me, there's a real but fairly small benefit to a tongue-in-cheek DYK, but that really doesn't outweigh the potential harm to the encyclopaedia and its reputation, or indeed the potential impression to many of our readers and editors that they might be unwelcome here.

Given that Baddiel's point is really that "Jews don't count" in the public conversation about discrimination in Britain, would it work to simply state something to that effect? It should be easy enough to source to a review.

The Harvard errors are revealed by this script: the problem is that we're referring to sources called "Baddiel 2021", but it isn't clear which source that is, because there are multiple sources identified as such in the bibliography. Again, adding letter codes to the dates will fix this problem. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:58, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

OK - I have been using the script since the beginning, but, I'm travelling and on mobile right now so I'll check it again when I have access to a desktop again to see if it makes a difference. We're not referring to multiple sources named BADDIEL2021, we're referring to a custom cite link called "BADDIEL" I made for that reference, so I'm inclined to think this is a false positive as having tried it through multiple emulators, I have no issues. If I must, I'll add letter codes, but this was a stylistic choice to avoid having to do so. I understand your points about the hook, but on that basis, something like ALT2 should be fine as it is very clear that nothing stated is from Wikipedia's viewpoint.

I can ping you on the 4th when I've had a chance to thoroughly check through and make changes to article and hook:  Frzzl  talk; contribs  08:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Happy with that. It's footnote 2 with the problem (still): it's saying that CITEREFBaddiel could be note 1, note 3 or note 7. I don't see a good way around this without letter codes: even if the machine can be persuaded, we'd still be giving the reader no more information than "Baddiel 2021", which would break MOS:NOFORCELINK as there's no way to see which source is intended without using the link.

I think ALT2 is on the wrong side of the line between humour and incomprehensibility: more importantly, the "thinking about pickles" quotation doesn't appear in the article. Could you suggest a few more alts, perhaps? Happy to hang around until the 4th or whenever suits. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:37, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

OK, I've fixed the harv issue according to the Trappist script simply by making the custom CITEREF less ambiguous; nothing is showing for me, and I was used Svick's harverror script before, so I'm inclined to believe that this was a false positive from the script. Anyways, should be done. Some ideas for more alts:

* "... that according to comedian David Baddiel, Jews Don't Count?"

* "... that according to David Baddiel, antisemitism has become a "second–class racism" because Jews Don't Count?"

* "... that Jews Don't Count in identity politics?"

* "... that according to David Baddiel, Jews Don't Count as a minority?"

Hopefully one of those is suitable, but I'm perfectly happy to suggest some more if not :D  Frzzl  talk; contribs  14:59, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I think the new ALT2 is best: do we have a source for it? I'd link antisemitism as well. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Awesome. Quotation included in the article and comes from .  Frzzl  talk; contribs  16:35, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Approved for that alt with that source and link. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:12, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

putting the right tick so the nom can proceed  Frzzl  talk; contribs  12:28, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

References

And his father?

This article describes David Baddiel's mother, but doesn't mention his father at all--as if he didn't exist. What gives? Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 22:50, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I didn't realise his father was Jewish. The information about his mother was only included because I saw she was Jewish, which was relevant to Baddiel's mindset and therefore the book. Changed to be genderneutral "parents".  Frzzl  talk; contribs  18:32, 28 September 2023 (UTC)