Talk:Joe Kelley/GA1

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewer: TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) 13:41, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I will review this article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:41, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LEAD

The Lead and infobox should include his 1986 National League stolen bases championship. 87 stolen bases in a season was and continues to be a phenominal number.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:01, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Added. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - What are your thoughts on not stating he led the league or MLB in SB here?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:04, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - I agree with it. A lead should summarize the subject, and in this case his base stealing is relevant. I'm still improving in my lead writing. I guess I wrote this one in April. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~The lead may also mention that he has finished in the top ten of numerous categories multiple times or you may reserve for this for the main body.~~--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:01, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it's best to reserve it for the body. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:52, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - I had thought you meant to add the specific top 10s to the lead, which would be burdensome. Mentioning that he has many top 10 finishes was a good idea. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~The lead belies his hitting skill by omission.~~--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:01, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- How about now? – Muboshgu (talk) 16:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Still omits SB championship.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:11, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - No, it's in there. It didn't say he led the league, but now it does. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:31, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Think about his 1896 season. He led the league in stolen bases and was top 10 in 2B, 3B, HR, OBP, SLG, BA, R, RBI and a whole lot more. The league may have only had 8 or 10 teams, but we need to present the reader with a sufficient summary of his skill so as not to be surprised in the article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:09, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added some of this, but I'm loathe to get into stats like 2B and 3B, which are less discussed, and a little hesitant about adding OBP and SLG, which are popular now, but weren't back when Kelley played. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:32, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Never mind, we'll go with OBP and SLG. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:53, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - What happened to OBP and SLG?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - I haven't added it yet, since at first I was against it. After thinking about it some more, I think it's relevant so I will add it. I have to leave shortly, though, so I won't get around to it until later today. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:36, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - All OBP and SLG top tens added. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:55, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is the kind of guy who today we might be able to simply say he was something like a 10-15x AS and 2x MVP. You have a greater burden as the biographer of 19th century stars who are pre-AS and pre-MVP.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:20, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Major League Baseball

be mindful of the Baseball-reference "gray ink" (top 10) stuff here. You should add some detail to a sentence like "Kelley batted .305, with 120 runs scored, and stole 33 bases", highlighting top 10s.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:20, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I've never heard of this term before. I'm reading on it and will add.[1] – Muboshgu (talk) 01:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added quite a bit, mostly in the 1890s and early 1900s, when he was among the league leaders. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:32, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Don't add term to article. My point is that he had a lot of great seasons. (by my estimation he would be a 10-15x AS if they had AS games back then.) IMO, you should present the proper amount of detail for the reader to understand this. Feel free to share your thoughts.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:02, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - I won't add the term. I've added quite a bit of the relevant gray ink, though I think there are a few more to add, especially if I do talk about OBP and SLG. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Generally every season needs to be put in context of gray ink. 120 runs sounds phenominal, but it paled in comparison to some other stats relative to his peers.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:20, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- What about the seasons where he didn't finish in the top 10 of any worthy of inclusion category? – Muboshgu (talk) 16:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Generally, I want more detail, but individual instances are judgement calls. Don't add non-notable content.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:13, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~In 1894, he finished 2nd in the NL in several stats. Who beat him?~~--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:20, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The article doesn't say this. I don't see any stats he finished second in in 1894.[2]
  - It would if it were complete. Please add. See B-r.com.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:02, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Burn. The stats where he finished second are more sabermetric (Adj. Batting Runs, Adj. Batting Wins), which don't belong in the article of a late 19th-early 20th century player. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:35, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      - The list includes OBP, 2B, R, BB (and less important extra base hits as well as 1B assists).---TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~Can you subsection this part?~~--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:35, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- - - - The page now includes OBP, 2B, R, and BB for 1894, as well as BA and RBI. It was his best season. Extra base hits and 1B assists do not seem important enough to me to include. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:28, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:59, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~"In the day they owned the franchise". Is this correct? Do you mean "On the day they acquirede the franchise"?~~--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:35, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - I don't understand the change made versus the change suggested. That phrase seems odd to me.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:08, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - They only owned the Orioles franchise for one day. Ban Johnson used some obscure league rule to seize control of the franchise the next day. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
~~What happened to the 2nd year of the Doves contract.~~--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:35, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Sources say Kelley and Dovey "settled" their dispute, though it doesn't say in any great detail what that means. It also says Kelley got a comparable salary with Toronto as he was to make in Boston, so it seems that whatever the two did to meet in the middle, they were able to move on. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - State that following the settlement, he did not return to finish out the contract.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:08, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Stated explicitly. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:25, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Later career

~~Does 9 hits still stand as a MLB or NL doubleheader record? If it has been broken, please detail it.~~--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:40, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The record remains nine.[3] However, it seems that Kelley merely tied the record, and didn't set it. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:14, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - State it is a current record. If a reasonable number of people have tied the record, say so.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:18, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - Stated as a current record. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:53, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life

~~Who is Keller?~~--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:40, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. Meant to write "Keeler", as in Wee Willie Keeler, who is wikilinked in an earlier section.
I am putting this on hold in hopes that you can present the skill of this player more fully in the text.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:43, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I think we're good here. I've added much gray ink to this page and improved the lead. Can you give it another look to see if there's anything I missed?
  - I am passing this now. good work.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:08, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]