Talk:Joey Wat

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Removal of warning banners

Hello! My name is Monica and I work for Yum China. I've disclosed my conflict of interest on my profile page as well. I created this account to suggest improvements to Wikipedia articles related to the company, including this one. I can confirm my colleague, User:Joanna Jiang, drafted the original version of this article, which was accepted via the Articles for Creation process, and then made some edits to update the article. She does not have plans to edit Wikipedia further, so I am disclosing her conflict of interest on her behalf. At the time when Joanna created the article and then edited it, we at Yum China weren't aware we needed to explain our conflict of interest. We have learned about the site's policies on this now, so I am here to clear up the past involvement and let editors know we will not make any further edits.

I noticed there are 2 warning banners at the top of the page, and I'm wondering how they can be removed. The first banner says "It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies." The second one says "It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies, particularly neutral point of view." Can editors identify specifically which text is problematic, if any? Or, if none of the text violates guidelines, can the banners be removed? I'm willing to address concerns raised. Thanks! MX Yum China (talk) 08:31, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

User:DGG, you accepted the Articles for Creation submission, and User:GSS, you added the conflict of interest banner. Perhaps one of you can determine if my disclosure here means the warning banners can be removed? Thanks. MX Yum China (talk) 12:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

The banners are more specific than you describe.

The one on Conflict of interest remains true--it was edited by someone with a conflict of interest, and readers have a right to know this.

The one on Undisclosed payments can be removed, because they have now been disclosed above. DGG ( talk ) 04:44, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

User:DGG, Thanks for supporting removal of the undisclosed payments tag. The conflict of interest tag says, "Learn how and when to remove this template message." When I click here, Help:Maintenance template removal says the tag can be removed "when the issue has been adequately addressed," "upon determining that the issue has been resolved," or "when it can reasonably be concluded that the template is no longer relevant," among other reasons. It doesn't sound like this template should be permanent from its wording but more that it lets readers know that some content might be an issue. Of course if there is any problematic content, I can take steps to help address and I'm happy to do so. Are there any issues that you see? If the article is generally accurate, neutral, and otherwise compliant with guidelines, can this tag be removed as well? Would it be better replaced with Template:Connected contributor (paid) here on the talk page? Thanks again for your reply, MX Yum China (talk) 03:59, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

You should add connected contribtor paid on the talk page, abut the coi tag is none the less appropriate, since most readers never see that talk page. it's not an indication of shame; I know this sound circular, but in my experience it is usually someone with coi who would insist on the coi tag being removed. DGG ( talk ) 07:16, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

User:DGG, Thank you, I've added the 'Connected contributor (paid)' template with both names. I think I filled the template out correctly but you or others can fix as needed. The COI tag suggests steps can be taken to remove, which I want to do, so I hope you don't mind I may reach out to other editors to see if they can identify any problems with the article. I'm willing to help by addressing any concerns with the article's text. Thanks again for your reply, MX Yum China (talk) 04:04, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

@MX Yum China as per WP:PAID can you please provide links on your Wikipedia user page to all active accounts at websites where you advertise paid Wikipedia-editing services e.g. your Upwork account etc. Thank you. GSS (talk|c|em) 04:08, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

@GSS: I work for Yum China and I'm interested in addressing problems with the Joey Wat and Yum China articles specifically. I do not have an Upwork account or offer paid Wikipedia-editing services. The same is true for my colleague Joanna Jiang. MX Yum China (talk) 03:16, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

User:Drm310, Thank you for adding a template above. Since submitting proper disclosure, the banner about undisclosed payments has been removed and I'm currently trying to take steps to remove the tag saying "A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject." I've asked for help at WikiProject Women and the conflict of interest noticeboard, and no editors have identified problematic text, so I'm looking to understand how this can be resolved. Are you willing to take a look at the article and remove the tag if there are no concerns? Thank you. MX Yum China (talk) 04:01, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Request edit on 30 August 2019

While editors are considering the tag removal request above, I hope someone will help with a few minor improvements:

• At the top of the article, removing the stray "g" in the sentence: "She also served as CEO of KFC China, managing director of A.S. Watson Group UK, and spent seven years in management consulting g."
• Removing the space before citation 4, after the sentence: "As of May 2019, she is one of only 33 female CEOs on the Fortune 500."
• In the career section, changing "consultant at A.T. Kearney ,.[8] and then" to "consultant at A.T. Kearney,[8] and then" (fixing the punctuation)
• Fixing the spacing in the sentence: "She joined A.S. Watson Group UK in 2004 ,becoming head of strategy for over 10 countries in Europe and managing director of A.S. Watson Group UK."

These are minor, but I'm asking someone else to make these changes on my behalf given my conflict of interest. Thank you. MX Yum China (talk) 02:25, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Done Hug^syrup 10:24, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Hugsyrup: Thank you.

If you would be so kind, I wonder if you might also take a look at the above discussion, where I've been trying to take steps to remove the article's conflict of interest tag. I've asked for help at WikiProject Women and the conflict of interest noticeboard, and no editors have identified problematic text, so I'm trying to understand how this can be resolved. Did you see any concerns in the article text, or might you suggest another place to ask for help? I was also looking around and it seems like this article could be part of more "WikiProjects" like WikiProject China, WikiProject Hong Kong, and WikiProject Women: how do I add it or could you help with that? Thanks again for your help. MX Yum China (talk) 02:55, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi MX Yum China - I'm not sure if I can help with this I'm afraid. As DGG said in the discussion above, the banner is simply a notification that a substantial part of the article was written by someone with a conflict of interest, so unless the article is completely re-written by someone unconnected, that fact isn't going to change. It doesn't mean that any specific part of the text is necessarily problematic, but unfortunately, that makes it one of those banners that is quite difficult to get removed by simple editing of the article. Either way, I'm not really knowledgeable enough on this area to go against the experienced editors above who you have already asked about this and got an answer from. As a side point, I'm not quite sure why you're so keen to have it removed? Hug^syrup 08:38, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. My motivation here is that the tag appeared based on my colleague editing the page, and our sense as a company is that the tag is an issue we should help resolve. If there's a problem with the content, I wish to help fix. The COI template's wording strongly suggests that the page needs to be cleaned up, and I want to assist with that rather than leave it as a problem for other editors in the future. I looked at the template's instructions and it says:

• "Do not use this tag if you can quickly solve the problem, e.g., by removing peacocking and puffery or by reverting the blanking of well-sourced criticism. If the article/ edit also has problems with neutrality, however, then use of the tag is likely appropriate."

Are there neutrality problems with this article? How can that be fixed? To my knowledge, all of the content has been reviewed.

• "This tag may be removed by editors who do not have a conflict of interest after the problem is resolved, if the problem is not explained on the article's talk page, and/or if no current attempts to resolve the problem can be found."

If the template must stay, is there some way to indicate that the page has been checked by Wikipedia editors and is not in need of cleanup? MX Yum China (talk) 13:25, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• You have a conflict of interest, and the tag says you have a conflict of interest. As for content: reference 6 although certainly in a major publication is nonetheless a promotional interview, where the interviewer just give an opportunities for the peerson to say what they wantto say about themselves--it is not third party in any meaningful way. Ref 1 is not much better, and ref 8 is a report of the same interview as in ref 1. Adding the date of the actual interview would help here. Ref 11 is a press release, published with quotation marks to indicate it. Almost everything else is a mere notice. Refs 3 and 5 are the major ones, and it does not help that they require subscription. (as does ref 2, but it doesnt matter there, because it's just a directory) .

Furthermore I personally consider listings like the Fortune ones to be intended to be used for promotional purposes., and their inclusion in the article as inclusion of promotionalism Our practice though is to include those from the major business publications. They really don't indicate more than being the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. However, In my personal view the CEOs of all Fortune 500 companies should have an article, for there is likely to be permanent public interest. That is my personal view, and very much not an accepted guideline--most wikipedians might think that is too much like the criterion for a dictionary, not an encyclopedia. DGG ( talk ) 23:36, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

@DGG: Thanks for revisiting this discussion. I'm trying to make improvements to this article, but I hesitate to suggest specific sources or wording because doing so seems to be part of the problem if I am understanding your last note. If I share some sources, might you be willing to see if any could be used to replace lower quality ones?

• Forbes staff writer piece: Flannery, Russell (February 6, 2019). "Meet The 'Force Of Nature' Propelling Yum China's Sales And Shares". Forbes. Retrieved September 11, 2019.
• Fortune profile, also confirms her consultant role at McKinsey: "20: Joey Wat". Fortune. Retrieved September 11, 2019.
• Bloomberg News, short piece but confirms she is "one of just 24 female CEOs among Fortune 500 companies": "At Yum China, the CEO Is a Woman and So Are Half the Managers". Bloomberg News. March 7, 2019. Retrieved September 11, 2019.
• CNBC, brief mention but confirms Wat is one of just a few "women of color holding the top spot at a Fortune 500 company": Connley, Courtney (June 10, 2018). "Why the gender pay gap still exists 55 years after the Equal Pay Act was signed". CNBC.
• Money Inc: Lee, Allen. "10 Things You Didn't Know about Yum China CEO Joey Wat". Money Inc. Retrieved September 11, 2019.

Do these help? Or, if you can identify specific claims you believe are non-neutral or require better sourcing, I can do some additional searching. My goal here ultimately is to make sure that this article meets Wikipedia's standards and hopefully resolve the issues relating to the template. Thanks for any help. MX Yum China (talk) 13:25, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

In terms of improving quality:

Flannery is an interview giving her the opportunity to say what she wants, with questions designed to let her promote herself and her company. It's similar to the 2 CNBC profiles in the article. If you're the PR agent, and you were able to arrange for these interviews, you did a very good job, but they remain promotional interviews. Of the 3. I'd use the Fortune one.

The short Fortune profile is usable, but it is not significant coverage

Bloomberg, and CNBC, as you realize, are just mentions

The Money article is part of their standard series. It uses her as an excuse for giving general advice. I consider it relatively trivial, which confirms my general view of the difference between Fortune and Money.

I do not think the article will be deleted if challenged, but it is impossible to be sure. The question is the COI tag. Removing these is a matter of interpretation. I'd personally prefer we had a way of using a gentler wording for a similar tag that does not get removed, and I may try to get one adopted. For the present one, I will let someone else decide. DGG ( talk ) 14:34, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

As for the tags, you are trying to promote her career by having her covered her, and that's

Request edit on 16 September 2019

I have a small request for improving this article, based on replies above and to address an issue in the article.

• Reference #4 is not formatted correctly. I think simply adding "}}" after 2019 in "access-date=July 30, 2019</ref>" would fix this problem.
• Immediately above, User:DGG said this Fortune article was acceptable sourcing. Would an editor please replace the lower quality sources #9 and #10 with this one, which confirms her time at McKinsey & Company? I hope this is formatted correctly: <ref>{{cite web|url=https://fortune.com/most-powerful-women-international/2018/joey-wat|title=20: Joey Wat|work=Fortune|access-date=16 September 2019}}</ref>

These are minor, but I'm asking someone else to make these changes on my behalf given my conflict of interest. Thank you. MX Yum China (talk) 11:13, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Reply 17-SEP-2019

  Edit request partially implemented  

1. Y The formatting issue with reference number 4 was corrected.
2. N The Fortune article was not added, because while it confirms that the subject was a "former McKinsey consultant", it does not confirm the timeframe put forth in the Wikipedia article of 2000 to 2003. The sentence as it currently exists in the Wikipedia article is not worded in a way which would enable the current request to reference one part of the information as separate and distinct from another part of the information (e.g., "Wat was a McKinsey consultant from 2000 to 2003 in Hong Kong"). Thus, the reference could not be simply added as requested. If the COI editor wishes the sentence to be referenced that way, please propose it as such, ensuring that the formatting of the verbatim proposed text is correct.

Regards,  Spintendo  18:05, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

References

Request edit on 19 September 2019

Thank you for helping above. If the Fortune article is better than the other sources, but requires the dates in the text to be removed, that's ok.

Now, a separate request. Currently, the Awards section says:

Wat was ranked as one of the “Top 50 Most Influential Business Leaders in China” and as one of the “Top 25 Most Powerful Women in Business in China” by Fortune Chinese Edition in 2018 and 2017 respectively.

References

I'd like to suggest a slight wording change and add mention of a couple other awards:

Wat was ranked by the Chinese edition of Fortune magazine as one of the 25 most influential business women in China in both 2017 and 2018. In 2018, she was named one of the China's 50 most influential business leaders by Fortune China, as well as one of the most powerful women in international business by the American version of Fortune. She was also on Forbes China's 2019 list of the top 100 businesswomen.

References

3 of these sources are written in English, and the 3 published by Fortune China can be easily verified using Google Translate if needed. I'm asking someone else to make these changes on my behalf given my conflict of interest, and as this process continues I'm hoping someone will consider removing the warning banner at the top of the page. Thank you. MX Yum China (talk) 07:05, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Reply 19-SEP-2019

  Clarification requested  

1. By their very nature, accolades such as the Forbes 25 most Influential Buisnesspeople can be subjective, in that they represent a very specific point of view — the point of view of the individual or organization which determines who wins the accolade and why. To counter this, a good practice is to limit the listing of accolades to only those which are independently notable in Wikipedia.
2. To include a list of accolades here, please ensure that only accolades which are independently notable in Wikipedia are listed in the request.
3. When ready to proceed with the list of independently notable accolades, kindly change the {{request edit}} template's answer parameter to read from |ans=yes to |ans=no. Thank you!
   

Regards,  Spintendo  20:14, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Notes

References

Request edit on 9 October 2019

Thank you for the response to my last request, I will leave the awards for now.

As a new request, the original image for this article was removed as Wikimedia Commons editors removed the original file. I have uploaded a new one and sent the release needed File:Joey_Wat_profile_2019.png. Could this be added to the infobox?

I'm asking someone else to add this on my behalf given my conflict of interest. Thank you. MX Yum China (talk) 04:01, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Reply 9-OCT-2019

  Edit request implemented  

• Per OTRS ticket #2019091710005439

 Spintendo  06:34, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Proposed expansion

Hi. My name is Corey. I work for Joey Wat and her employer, Yum China. The current page is pretty bare bones. It's only a few paragraphs long and one of those paragraphs is a dedicated section listing trivial awards/rankings. I was hoping an impartial editor might be willing to review a proposed expansion that also removes the promotional awards section as a potential replacement of the current page that summarizes profile stories on Wat in the media. Coreyhcooper (talk) 03:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Coreyhcooper: I have had a quick look at your proposed expansion and find it too promotional for inclusion. Furthermore I am not at all familiar with this sphere of interest. Rather than a full rewrite, I think you should begin by suggesting one new important detail for inclusion. The work of earlier contributors needs to be preserved.--Ipigott (talk) 07:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

@Ipigott: Is this version better? Appreciate your patience with me.  Coreyhcooper (talk) 07:25, 12 January 2024 (UTC)</nowiki>

• Coreyhcooper: As I have already pointed out, it is not appropriate to replace the current page with a completely new article. If there are items which you think ought to be modified, you should list them one at a time on the article's talk page.--Ipigott (talk) 07:30, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

• @Ipigott: Understood. I'll suggest edits one at-a-time if that is the way you prefer to review them. I'd start by trimming the "Awards" section. The awards are trivial rankings -"top 25" listings that were added by my predecessors at Yum China. I suspect the promotional Awards section is the reason the COI banner is still justified and correcting for past mistakes is a good place to start. Let me know if you agree RE trimming the awards section. I'll move on to expanding the Early Life section next if that works? Coreyhcooper (talk) 07:10, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

• Coreyhcooper: It's not the way I prefer, it's simply a means of maintaining the work of other editors. I'm not sure it is a good idea to "trim" the awards section even if your former colleagues added them. I would not consider the awards section promotional. A significant proportion of biographies give details of awards. Further more suitable awards could of course be added provided they are backed by sources.--Ipigott (talk) 07:33, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

• @Ipigott: Got it. I'll put together an expansion, rather than trim, on her awards, per your feedback. I really appreciate you taking the time to help as I try to contribute the right way. I am eager to correct for past mistakes. Since the awards section is not promotional, do you have any suggestions on what might be? The tag at the top suggests the current page still has issues caused by my predecessors. Coreyhcooper (talk) 02:49, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

*Given your own interest in making further changes to the article, I don't think it would be appropriate to remove the tag at the moment.--Ipigott (talk) 06:46, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Ipigott: Understood. If there's nothing wrong with the current content, I'll focus on adding content. Below is a suggested Awards section that is expanded, rather than trimmed, per your feedback. This would add some of Joey's more significant awards and improve some of the citations for the current ones. Also, this way avoids having an entire section in the article comprised of just one sentence. Let me know your thoughts.

PS in some cases you'll see Joey Wat referenced in sources under her Chinese name "Qu Cuirong".

Wat was included in Forbes' list of the World's 100 Most Powerful Women for 2023, 2022, and 2021 as well as Fortune Magazine’s list of Most Powerful Women in 2023 and 2020. She appeared on Fortune China’s list of China's 50 Most Influential Business Leaders in 2023, 2022, 2021, and 2018. as well as Business Insider's list of 100 People Transforming Business in Asia in 2020. She was also named to Forbes China's list of Top 100 Businesswomen in 2023, 2022, 2021, 2020, and 2019, and Fortune China's Most Powerful Women in Business list in 2023, 2022, 2021, 2020, and 2018. Coreyhcooper (talk) 01:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Coreyhcooper: This seems reasonable. I've expanded the Awards section accordingly.--Ipigott (talk) 06:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Ipigott:! The awards section looks much better now that it's more meaty. The "Early life and Education" section is similarly anemic (currently two sentences) and there is an abundance of source material that could be used to expand it. Would you be willing to review another proposed expansion for that section?

• Coreyhcooper: I don't think I should be the only one involved. You could perhaps contact some of the other contributors to this page and seek their assistance. You need to sort out the additional material below. For example you signature is not displaying and I've moved my response up to here where it can be seen,--Ipigott (talk) 06:29, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Early life and Education

Early life and education Wat was born on June 26, 1971 in a poor neighborhood near Fuzhou, China. Wat's parents couldn't afford to send their children to school, so initially Wat learned from her sister. Wat's family moved to Hong Kong circa 1980. Wat worked nights to support her family, while going to school during the day. She worked at a factory that created plastic flower arrangements starting at age 9 and also worked as a waitress from ages 15-18. She graduated third in her class in high school and won the Hong Kong Outstanding Students Award. After high school, Wat attended the University of Hong Kong, where she studied development economics. After graduating with first-class honors in 1994, she returned to her hometown in Fuzhou. She saw that the area had jobs, new roads, water, and electricity thanks to businesspeople creating factories in the area. Wat decided instead to go into business and started working at a business consultancy, AT Kearney. Then, she moved to the United States to attend the Northwestern University Kellogg School of Management, where she earned a Master's in Business Administration. References

Coreyhcooper (talk) 02:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposed expansion of Early Life and Education section

Hi. My name is Corey and I work for Joey Wat's employer, Yum China. The current "Early life and Education" section is rather anemic (two sentences long). In compliance with WP:COI, I wanted to share a proposed expansion of the early life section for impartial editors to consider. In conformity with Ipigott's comments above, I'm making small change requests at a time and reaching out to other editors for input. Coreyhcooper (talk) 02:22, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Coreyhcooper, @Ipigott, other interested, I was asked about this on my talkpage. I haven't looked deeply at the sources, and I have no idea on the RS-ness of the Chinese ones, but on the face of it this looks largely ok. "learned from her sister" doesn't seem to be exactly what the source says.

I suggest rewriting "She saw that the area had jobs, new roads, water, and electricity thanks to businesspeople creating factories in the area. Wat decided instead to go into business and started working at a business consultancy, AT Kearney."

to

"She saw that the area had prospered due to private [or Taiwanese] investment, and decided to go into business and started working at a business consultancy, AT Kearney."

"Instead" doesn't seem to make sense in context. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: Many thanks for your input. I incorporated your feedback above into the draft with some minor tweaks - please let me know if it looks OK now. Coreyhcooper (talk) 07:21, 20 March 2024 (UTC)