Talk:Joker (character)/Archive 4

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The Joker’s initial personality.

In his earliest appearance the Joker’s so-called smiling face is the antithesis of “comic” - it is completely immobile, a rictus grin, as it were, and his voice is a monotone. This makes for an interesting contrast with later versions where he is a laughing, animated figure, with an emotional delivery, and a flexible face (although sometimes so stylized and elongated that it is impossible to work out the physiology of how his jaw would provide such movement!). I think that as the monotonous voice and frozen face were the original concept of the character, and play a part worth mentioning in the story itself (the voice from the radio is quite chilling) it should be incorporated into the article, However, as the writers appear to be exceptionally possessive and politically charged, I won’t venture to upset anybody’s bat-applecart by inserting anything myself! Jock123 (talk) 13:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

How do you intuit a monotone voice from a comic book? Syrthiss (talk) 13:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
I wish I'd seen your question three years ago! I just reviewed the first two Joker stories. There's no intuition required! His voice is described as monotone in the narration of the story. The narration is the part in square boxes, usually at the top of a panel.
--Ben Culture (talk) 05:56, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Well, the way they did it in Watchmen (with the character of Rorschach) was that they rendered all of his speech in a slightly different font (as well as a frayed-edge bubble) and putting no bold emphasis on specific words in his dialogue (a common staple of comics) but I don't know whether or that's the case for early Joker stuff. --Kaizer13 (talk) 03:45, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Not for the early Joker stuff, but his laughter was often rendered outside of speech bubbles as a sound effect and not an actual thing he's saying. There's a very memorable image in "The Laughing Fish" of Joker walking through a door with his laughter twirling around his body in a long ribbon of "Ha"s. On the more recent end of things, his speech in "Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth" was rendered in splattered, messy red lettering with no speech balloon at all, merely a red line pointing to what he was saying. In "Batman: R.I.P.", Joker's speech is shown in green inside a green-ringed speech balloon, and is additionally rendered all in lowercase lettering (though this was due to him not having lips and having a split tongue; I think this tactic was used to make it a bit more confusing for the reader to read since lowercase letters in the Comic Sans font can run together and look very strange). There have been other times when his speech has been rendered in weird, wiggly, or otherwise odd-looking lettering (sort of like how Delirium of the Endless' speech in the Sandman comic series is done), and points when his laughter has started in and then burst out of his speech bubble as a sound effect.

76.235.173.12 (talk) 03:40, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Jock123, your comment strikes me as correct in every way. The Joker's face and smile were specifically described as fixed and immobile, in the narration, though some panels show Joker with slightly different expressions. Likewise, his voice was described as monotone, low, deliberate, chilling.

It's how I get into arguments on YouTube, with people who think Mark Hamill was the be-all-end-all voice-over Joker, when I believe his performances were way, way off, in comparison to Michael Emerson's flat and mild take in The Dark Knight Returns.

I just wanted to put this support in, in case any later editors want to clear things up: The original comic appearances describe his face and his voice. All very un-clowny and non-fruity, pretty much the antithesis of Hamill's performance. --Ben Culture (talk) 16:17, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Batman: Lovers & Madmen Canonicity

I was just reading it and it seemed to tell the origin of the Joker. I was wondering how canoncal it is and if the story should be added since the article says how no one knows his origin. --Ryu (Talk | Contributions) 17:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

We'd need to find some citations about that, we're not supposed to edit in our judgments on the matter. Please look some up, and let us know what you find by including links in your response. Thanks, it's a good question to ask. ThuranX (talk) 21:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Okay. The official name for it is Batman Confidential: Lovers and Madmen. In the article has the plot and everything. I honestly don't know if this is canon or not. I think it might be though. --Ryu (Talk | Contributions) 17:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay. Apparently, it's the Joker's origin after the Infinite Crisis cleaned the slate. Though the Joker himself does not remember his origin, this story isn't told through his perspective. So should we add it? --Ryu (Talk | Contributions) 18:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The writter for that comic was the guy who created "Heroes" I dont think it is canon, it seemed like a one time comic. The guy who wrote it (I just cant remember his name right now) said he always wanted to write a joker story so again I think it was just a one of. The story contained nothing of the red hud element and has the joker's insanity as being caused by chemicals which although possible doesnt seem to correspond to other joker stories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.79.62 (talk) 18:55, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I think trying to determine the "canonicity" of a Joker origin story is a fool's game. Regardless of their crises du jour, DC has made it pretty clear that the Joker's past is "multiple choice". Expecting them to nail down the One True story is as hopeless as expecting to learn his true name. There is no canonical origin. There never will be. ("Lovers & Madmen" is awesome, though, isn't it?)
--Ben Culture (talk) 06:00, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Batman Forever (yet again)

This was already discussed at Talk:Joker (comics)/Archive 3#Jack Napier in Batman Forever and Talk:Joker (comics)/Archive 3#Batman Forever., as well as being discussed at User talk:Krlzh. Now the same material is being added by Paulita1292 (talk · contribs) (example).

It has pretty strong consensus that the material has no business being in the article unless a reliable source can be found that supports the statement. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 04:07, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd go one further, and suggest a Checkuser be requested. ThuranX (talk) 14:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Motherfuckers Thuranx, barek, JGreb and doczilla; this man in Batman forever is Jack Napier, if you say that this man isn't him, who is the shooter? Joe Chill?. Batman Forever is the continuation of Batman and Batman returns because Dr Chase Meridian speak a phrase reference to Catwoman, too when says to Bruce don't work late, when Dick discusses with Bruce when says "You parents weren't killed by a maniac." Bruce replied, "Yes they were.". Do you know is going to want to deny the truth pc and want to be lynched by Batman fans and the fact that the actor Jack Nicholson is one less does not mean the character has changed. That's whim of you and especially ThuranX and Barek.

JACK NAPIER IS PLAYED BY DAVID U HODGES IN A FLASHBACK IN BATMAN FOREVER —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulita1292 (talk • contribs) 16:48, 6 November 2009

As has been explained repeatedly - that material is original research. You need a reliable source for that material. None of the sources provided thus far have been reliable. Remember: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:18, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
the "New" IP's singling out of editors who reverted Krlzh's edits shows this to be a sock puppet in use. I'm not sure if it violates policy, Krlzh is not blocked or banned, so it's not block avoidance, but might be socking in that it's a SPA meant to increase the appearance of support. I'll let SPI look it over. ThuranX (talk) 19:41, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

WHo the fuck deleted the bibliography?...

I assume it could be Chill but we don't have anything but assumptions to go by. So no this does not belong in the article.74.108.143.82 (talk) 23:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Admin action

It seems that we do have a problem here. I've reviewed the previous discussion, and consensus does appear to me to be that the material should not be added. I have reverted the edit added by the anon and I have semi-protected this page. I do suspect that the anon is a regular editor here, so I encourage them to log into their account to make these sort of changes. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 07:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

All things considered, I doubt they can. The likely editor has had their accounts blocked for socking. - J Greb (talk) 07:47, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Then semi-protection it is. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 07:57, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Continued Disruption

The IP continues to add the material. I've reverted him again, since the addition came with a lovely [1] personal attack on my talk page. Looking over the discussion above, I think it's still pretty clear there's no consensus to add the material. I'll go a step farther, even if there was a reliable source, it's still trivial. When you have a character who's been portrayed as many times as the Joker, there's no need to mention every single appearance of him, especially if it's a passing mention by a non-notable (in Wikipedia terms) actor. Any thoughts? Dayewalker (talk) 17:51, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

New addition to Joker biography

More recently, the story "Small Problems" written by J. Michael Straczynski and published in The Brave and the Bold showed the Atom recruited by the doctors of Arkham Asylum in an attempt to save the Joker's brain succumbing to a rare neurologic condition without resorting to any potentially fatal brain surgery. As the shrunken Atom attempts to release an experimental compound directly inside the Joker's neural system, he witnesses first-hand various memories from the Joker's childhood which imply the character has been mentally unstable since a young age. The young, anonymous Joker is shown to be introverted until he 'comes alive' during moments of violence, such as brutally assaulting a bully with a lunch box. He later kills his parents in an act of arson as they debate his mental state in an argument that depicts his father as an unsympathetic parent who disowns the young Joker for his violent tendencies, namely killing local pets. Their argument also suggests the Joker's mother was an unfaithful partner, causing doubts on his father's side regarding their son's true parentage.

The Joker's burgeoning career as a criminal shows him as the leader of a small gang of armed robbers, before a memory montage of stabbings, shootings and explosions feature him ageing in and out of his trademark 'look', with no explanation shown for his eventual physical transformation into the Joker.

Reference:

Straczynski, J. Michael (w), "The Brave and the Bold (#31), (January 20, 2010), DC Comics

[2]

--Glockenspell (talk) 21:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Two problems - 1) your link doesn't back up any of what you've said, it's not a valid reference. 2) It's been said before that everyone who 'sees' Joker's mind sees it differently, there have been stories in which the Joker appears to be aware of the intrusion and manipulating the experience, so any good addition regarding his origin would need out-of-universe citation from writers about an 'official' explanation. As for the importance of yet another Joker story, I don't see it. Our articles do not need to be holistic, indeed, that would trend toward cruft, and B&B is a series designed for low impact stand-alone tales, not for continuity defining moments. ThuranX (talk) 00:49, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Emperor Joker

Didn't emperor joker first appear in DC showcase 95' or watever? Him and Batdemon were already inlodged in his deepest consciousness at one time or another before the mxyplx storyline. I propose to add the first appearance of emperor joker as an actual character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.42.105 (talk) 00:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Both Black Mask and Ra's Al Ghul are listed with their appearances in Under the Red Hood

The Joker will be in the movie as well, voiced in fact by John DiMaggio, but you don't care about that and remove all information, wonder why. (190.12.153.187 (talk) 22:59, 20 March 2010 (UTC))

Thanks for poiniting to those... Black Mask has been removed as unsourced rumor. And frankly, hosted by the LA Times or not, the Ra's item is sourced by a blog - a no-no. - J Greb (talk) 23:37, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The "Jack Napier" issue

While I know the Joker has no official name, Has anyone else noticed how the name from the Batman film has become accepted by quite a number of people? Ztyran (talk) 04:51, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we could use a scan from the Secret Origin's piece that ran a couple of years back? It had Joker choosing an origin to relate, and he mentions the Napier one. I dunno if that means the origin's been adapted as a possible comic one, but even just for the character's origin it visually represents how he prefers to have multiple choice I think. Regardless, that scan suggests how closely linked that name has become with the Joker; even the comics have picked up on it (even just in brief, perhaps even humorous, mention) Comics (talk) 00:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
There was a comic adaptation of the Batman film, so technically the name Jack Napier has been used in a comic. 110.174.166.224 (talk) 03:45, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
And that's a non-starter. The comic adaptation of the film doesn't incorperate anything into the material used for the fiction character biography. - J Greb (talk) 04:06, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
I'd personally consider it another alias/name for some versions of him and have it put under Aliases since he was named "Jack Napier" a few times, or has at least had his name stated as Jack. If you guys disagree though feel free to ignore my opinion. :) 76.235.173.12 (talk) 03:49, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Seriously? A fan film listed alongside Batman and the Dark Knight?

I am not generally one of those people who gets annoyed enough at Wikipedia to say something about it, but it seems fair to say that "a movie some talented fanboy made" is not a useful thing to cite in reference to the Joker's portrayals in pop culture, lest you also mention every time he appeared, for example, when lampooned on a sketch comedy show as "a portrayal." If the owners of the intellectual property are not involved, it seems like an illegitimate example. 71.185.13.198 (talk) 20:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I would argue that if the fan-film's influential enough in the fandom, it belongs there... But the info's apparently been moved to a spin-off page, so this really should continue over there, right? 76.235.173.12 (talk) 03:01, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Irrelavant to "Powers and Abilities"

I feel that this portion of the powers and abilities should be moved, or deleted:

The Joker has cheated death numerous times, even in seemingly inescapable and lethal situations. He has been seen caught in explosions, been shot repeatedly, dropped from lethal heights, electrocuted, and so on, but he always returns once again to wreak havoc.[44][45]
Over several decades there have been a variety of depictions and possibilities regarding the Joker's apparent insanity. Grant Morrison's graphic novel Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth suggests that the Joker's mental state is in fact a previously unprecedented form of "super-sanity," a form of ultra-sensory perception. It also suggests that he has no true personality of his own, that on any given day he can be a harmless clown or a vicious killer, depending on which would benefit him the most. Later, during the Knightfall saga, after Scarecrow and the Joker team up and kidnap the mayor of Gotham City, Scarecrow turns on the Joker and uses his fear gas to see what Joker is afraid of. To Scarecrow's surprise, the gas has no effect on Joker, who in turn beats him with a chair. In Morrison's JLA, the Martian Manhunter, trapped in a surreal maze created by the Joker, used his shape-shifting abilities to reconfigure his own brain to emulate the Joker's chaotic thought patterns. Later in the same storyline, Martian Manhunter uses his telepathic powers to reorganize the Joker's mind and create momentary sanity, albeit with great effort and only temporarily. In those few moments, the Joker expresses regret for his many crimes and pleads for a chance at redemption.
In Elseworlds: Distant Fires, the Joker is rendered sane by a nuclear war that deprives all super beings of their powers. In Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #145, the Joker became sane when Batman put him in one of Ra's al Ghul's Lazarus Pits after being shot, a reversal of the insanity which may come after experiencing such rejuvenation. However, the sanity is only temporary, and soon the Joker is back to his "normal" self.[46]
The character is sometimes portrayed as having a fourth wall awareness. In Batman: The Animated Series,[47] the Joker is the only character to talk directly into the "camera"[47] and can be heard whistling his own theme music in the episode adaptation of the comic Mad Love. Also, in the episode "Joker's Wild", he says into the camera, "Don't try this at home, kids!"[48] In the Marvel vs DC crossover, he also demonstrates knowledge of the first Batman/Spider-Man crossover even though that story's events did not occur in the canonical history of either the Marvel or DC universe. On page five of "Sign of The Joker", the second half of the "Laughing Fish" storyline, the Joker turns the page for the reader, bowing and tipping his hat in mock politeness. On the official websites and associated promotional material for The Dark Knight, graffiti characteristic of the Joker can be found.[49] On the website IBelieveinHarveyDentToo.com, hidden among laughter is the message "See you in December", referring to the release of the film's trailer.[50]

This is a series of him cheating death and an instance or two of him breaking the 4th wall in the TV series which was used purely as a comical moment each time. He (to my knowledge) does not have knowledge of the 4th wall in the comics. Also I do not believe listing his insanity is a power or ability. Please provide input. --  Grimbear13 ►Talk  16:07, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


This really differs for every comic fan and every author, to be honest. I believe that "Cheating Death" became an ability of his just because DC Comics used it so often for him! I think the profile for him on DC's website even mentions that. Since that hastily drawn in panel in his second appearance, the Joker has indeed usually survived his brushes with death, from falling off of heights to being knifed and beyond. In fact, when he was killed in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, it was made out as a huge deal, because he does so often escape death's clutches!
The Joker's fourth wall awareness is played with in the comics quite a bit, actually. As pointed out, in "Sign of the Joker" he turns the page for the reader. He's also handled his own speech balloons, and there have been a few other comics where he's addressed the reader directly. In one I can't recall the title of offhand, he discusses the nature of reality with a doctor at Arkham, and at the end turns to the reader and asks, "You are real, aren't you?" So yes, depending on the author, the Joker does have fourth wall awareness.
I would say in some cases, his insanity is and has been used as a "defensive" tactic, in the sense of him being so crazy that he can't go any crazier, only saner. And that's precisely how the comics have treated it for the most part - there have been numerous incidents of him being affected by depowering events and being rendered sane. There's one case of, I think, Martian Manhunter (might be the wrong character) forcing his mind into cohesion and the Joker feeling horribly guilty about the things he's done. There's one A/U, as pointed out, where a bunch of heroes get depowered because of a nuclear bomb blast (?) and the Joker goes sane. There's been a case of him going straight and becoming sane after thinking he's killed Batman (in "Going Sane"). So I'd say yes and no on insanity as an ability.
I would say the only thing maybe needing change is a little more info about his sleight of hand ability. It isn't outright stated by DC that he is dexterous, but it's an attribute often given to him. I wish I could find more examples of this, but the only one I can think of offhand is from one episode of Batman: The Animated Series (I believe the title was "Joker's Wild"), wherein he's at a Joker-themed casino and we see him playing around with the cards - shuffling the deck in quick, interesting ways, sending the deck across and down his arms, etc. I seem to recall him also used this sleight of hand ability to perform "magic tricks" which usually involve some nasty "joke's on you" effect or another... Someone back me up on this, please, because I'm sure I've seen the Joker do it! 76.235.173.12 (talk) 03:18, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Jeffgetslastlaugh, 12 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} I request you put 'Aaron Schoeke 2005 Patient J staring Paul Molnar as the joker and todays City of scars" Patient J is huge and one of my favorite jokers besides Andrew Koening was buddies with Paul Molnar and Sandy Collora is friend with the Aaron Schoeke.

The film is known world wide with a HUGE fan base, Please consider. 

thank you,

Jeff

Take a look Jeffgetslastlaugh (talk) 02:03, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —fetch·comms 02:48, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 201.68.50.235, 22 August 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} I sugggest the category:Fictional terrorists to be added. 201.68.50.235 (talk) 01:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

201.68.50.235 (talk) 01:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Not done: That category does not exist (Category:Fictional terrorists). Dabomb87 (talk) 02:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Spring is not a month

Joker's first appearance is currently listed as Spring 1940. Spring is not a month. Does anyone know the exact month it was published in? I've tried to find a reliable source but every book I've looked in says Spring 1940. 110.174.166.224 (talk) 03:41, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

The cover date is "Spring", which isn't an odd practice - some magazines have, and still do, run on a quarterly publication schedule.
In general the cover date is used in identifying the particular issue. "Month" is use for conveniance since the vast majority of comics have either been produced monthly or specify a single month on the cover. The same fields are used for cases where the cover lists multiple months (bi-monthly), partial months (bi-weekly), month and day (weekly), season (quartely), or "Holiday" (a rare occurance).
And since all the sources you are likely to try agree with this, please don't try to fix something that isn't broken.
- J Greb (talk) 04:03, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

I think exact month was May (I'm not too sure but I think it is as in an old batman book I had, it said it was May). (Injuegue (talk) 02:09, 28 July 2012 (UTC))

I think you can stop now - J Greb (talk) 02:32, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Jack White?

When did the Joker use the alias Jack White? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ztyran (talk • contribs) 19:45, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure but in Batman Arkham Asylum they say it's a regular alias. Sean 09:21, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Request to unblock

Blocked indefinitely? that's seems a bit harsh. This page should be unblocked, because I see that there's a lot of information to update, for example the Joker's latest appearance in Batman: The Brave and the Bold is in the "The Knights of Tomorrow!" episode, and he is in DC Universe Online, you know. (200.106.220.170 (talk) 18:09, 31 January 2011 (UTC))

You can register an account, and once you are autoconfirmed you can make any edit to the article that you wish (within Wikipedia guidelines). Since we still likely have a problem with a vandal account, the indefinite semiprotection (which doesn't' mean forever) will stay in place. Syrthiss (talk) 18:20, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
But do NOT go adding every appearance the Joker makes! Doczilla STOMP! 08:20, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion

Change the line in the "Character" Section from "The Joker's victims have included men, women, children, and even his own henchmen and other villains" to "... and even his own henchmen (frequently) and other villains" I remember that one of the main subplots of his short-lived series in the 70's was his two henchmen desperately trying to escape his employment before they were killed but they were continually foiled by their terror of him coming after them. Just add one word? Sincerely, Ford Prefect — Preceding unsigned comment added by PIlPxP14TB50M0ln4Kzy (talk • contribs) 16:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Not to be picky, but "and even his own henchmen (frequently) and other villains" seems semantically wrong; it just sounds odd. I do agree with adding the word "frequently" in there, though. Maybe change the whole sentence to, "The Joker's victims have included men, women, children, his own henchmen (frequently), and even other villains." Or just cut out the frequently entirely and leave it as, "... his own henchmen, and even other villains." The implication is that he already kills other people just as frequently as he kills his henchmen. Why add extraneous details?

76.235.173.12 (talk) 03:23, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Add frequently cause he kills his henchmen the most of all. Sean 09:26, 21 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sean199813 (talk • contribs)

Does the joker know batman's alter ego?

I'm getting mixed signals here does he know or is it like he might know but doesn't care? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julian Grebe (talk • contribs) 07:14, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

The Joker does not know. It's not a matter of not caring. The Joker willfully resist noticing giveaways to Batman's identity (like his vague recollection that the Robin he killed was named Jason) because the Joker does not want to know. He wants the Dark Knight's only other layer to be even Darker Knight. Doczilla STOMP! 08:18, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Splitting Joker in other Media

This section is either too much plot regurgitation and needs to be cut down significantly or split off into a new section. I'm willing to believe there is enough of him in other media to warrant its own article but as it is now, its a mess, badly organised and almost exclusively plot.Darkwarriorblake (talk) 01:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I just went and read through it and most of it is describing the take on the character. The only parts I think that match with what you're saying might be the description of Nicholson's Joker, the DCAU Joker and the Batman: Brave and the Bold Joker. The rest describe the depiction of the Joker in that particular media, and use episodes as references (eg; The Batman version and the Romero version). Maybe links should be provided to the main articles in those cases, seeing as those would go into a bit of detail about the plot? Comics (talk) 03:53, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps, its still pretty cluttered and long for a section and the article is missing a section describing any appearances he has in other media outside of Batman/DC stuff like merchandising so perhaps if this was split off, it could be more neatly presented and that kind of information could then also be added and to go into greater detail on areas where necessary.Darkwarriorblake (talk) 11:47, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Notable Aliases

This is clearly set out in the infobox page for this character type that it is for NOTABLE aliases, ones that are long-term, iconic, that if you use them people may have an inclination about what you're talking about. Nomad for Captain America for instance, Matches Malone for Bruce Wayne. By at least my understanding it should not be applied to one-use names or ones used briefly. Oberon Sexton for instance is or was a 'living' person who Joker killed, he stole his identity but it is unlikely, short of further stories down the line, that Joker will ever be identifies as Oberon Sexton like he is The Red Hood.

The Red Hood is, at the moment, probably the only verifiable and notable alias of the Joker and so by definition the only one that should be on the list at this moment in time.

If you can add evidence for others, that is welcome.

Joseph "Joe" Kerr could be considered notable in that it was used in the animated series and then in Legends of the Dark Knight comic, though it was essentially the same plot. It's certainly cross-media but is it iconic? Questionable.

Jack White. I don't know anything about this identity, I know it was used in Arkham Asylum and there Batman claimed it was one of his oldest identities but I don't know of its use outside the game.

CLem Rusty as I'm aware is ONLY used in The Joker, that elseworld one shot. This one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joker_(graphic_novel) . So it isn't very notable or even applicable since its a different version of the Joker altogether.

The Domino Killer is just the fake killer Joker was hunting as Oberon Sexton, no more notablethan Oberon, especially since you never see him AS the Domino Killer, its just a name thrown out.

Mr Rekoj I cannot find a single thing on this except a tumblr account so not certain on its notability at all but it seems low since any other reference is referencing the tumblr account.

So at the minute, my personal view is that all but the Red Hood is removed, possible keep Joe Kerr with more discussion. If you have a reason the others should be kept, please discuss it.Darkwarriorblake (talk) 00:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Could you make an argument for Jack Napier? I know that it was predominately used only in Burton's film, but DC has at least used it in a throw-away manner as an alias for the Joker: [3]. I'm just offering it as a suggestion, especially since the Joker in that scan is offering his multiple choice origin story. Technically, any one of them could be canon. Comics (talk) 02:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Also; not sure if this counts, but Emperor Joker was used about 10 or 12 years back when he had Mxy's powers. Comics (talk) 03:06, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Emperor Joker would be a title not an alias, I don't know anything about Jack Napiers use in comics but I don't think itd be applicable. Alias is essentially being someone else, as the Red Hood he was someone else, not the Joker, as Oberon Sexton, he was just the Joker using a disguise to move a plan forward. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 13:40, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
A bit more than 2¢...
As near as I can tell the intent for the aliases field has always been for notable aliases used by the character within the continuity that the article primarily covers. An extrapolation of that has been to limited to recurring aliases or those referenced in secondary sources. As for the list here... The Red Hood is the only one that fits all the criteria. as for the rest:
  • Kerr - I believe this has been a recurring alias that has been used in the DC Comics continuity. I'd really like confirmation on that though.
  • Rekoj - This sounds like something that could have been used in the comics, but I can't put a finger on where.
  • White - If it was only used in the Arkham Asylum, this it doesn't belong in the aliases. Beyond that, it sounds like it was mentioned in passing. That would mean that it isn't notable, and not worth including in the IOM section.
  • Rusty - If it's limited to the Elseworlds story, it doesn't belong.
  • Sexton - A one off that isn't very notable... no, this doesn't belong.
  • Domino Killer - Sexton, only more so.
- J Greb (talk) 23:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
I researched Joe Kerr more and I was misremembering, it was never an episode of Batman, just the Going Sane 'Legends of the Dark Knight' story. The alias WAS used in the show but for nothing major. So I concur that right now, the only one that should probably be up there is Red HoodDarkwarriorblake (talk) 00:32, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Well, then where does that leave nicknames like "Harlequin of Hate", "Mogul of Mountebanks", etc.? And I believe "Jack White" was used in the older comics but I am not sure. 76.235.173.12 (talk) 03:27, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
They're nicknames not alias, an alias is a complete identity like Dick Grayson being Robin, Nightwing, and possibly Batman.Darkwarriorblake (talk) 18:49, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request from 24.154.191.216, 21 March 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} I would like to add the following page, because there is a similar "Intercompany crossover" page--regarding the very same story--for the supervillian Carnage.

Intercompany crossover

Carnage teams up with and later turns against the Joker during Spider-Man And Batman #1, the two's mutual psychosis leading them into a brief alliance before their differing methods of murder cause a clash, Carnage favouring numbers in his murder sprees while the Joker prefers the artistry of his usual traps and tricks. The Joker tries to kill Carnage with a bomb, only to miss Carnage, who drapes a copy of his symbiote over a victim to fake the Joker out. Instead, it's Batman and Spider-Man who notice the diversion, and Carnage siezes Batman, proposing to kill him. In retaliation, the Joker threatens to set off a bomb that will kill everybody in Gotham City--including himself and Carnage--rather than see Carnage kill Batman and "slice and dice" his way through Gotham--his town. While Batman handles a distracted Carnage, Spider-Man grabs the "bomb" with his webbing, then chases after the Joker--flagging him down with his "spider-signal" and threatening the worst. But when the Joker dares Spider-Man to kill him, Spider-Man is unable to stoop to his level, and simply captures him.[1]


24.154.191.216 (talk) 22:59, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Not done for now: could you provide more details on your source? Stuff that goes in {{cite comic}} would be helpful, like the full title, date of publication, volume/issue, publisher, artist, etc. Beyond that, I would also suggest paring down the info a little so it doesn't read so much like a plot summary. Thanks, — Bility (talk) 21:05, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


"Portrayed by" list in infobox

I was wondering if the list of actors who have played Joker on TV and in films would be appropriate in the infobox, considering that this aspect of the character is covered in the lead and article body.Shirtwaist (talk) 23:31, 9 April 2011 (UTC)


Question

Why don't we have the title of this page be The Joker, rather than Joker (comics). It honestly looks better.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 02:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Among others: WP:DEFINITE, WP:NCC/THE, and WP:THE (which uses this article as an example). -J Greb (talk) 03:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Breaking the 4th Wall example?

"The character is sometimes portrayed as having a fourth wall awareness. In Batman: The Animated Series,[47] the Joker is the only character to talk directly into the "camera"[47] and can be heard whistling his own theme music in the episode adaptation of the comic Mad Love. Also, in the episode "Joker's Wild", he says into the camera, "Don't try this at home, kids!"[48] In the Marvel vs DC crossover, he also demonstrates knowledge of the first Batman/Spider-Man crossover even though that story's events did not occur in the canonical history of either the Marvel or DC universe. On page five of "Sign of The Joker", the second half of the "Laughing Fish" storyline, the Joker turns the page for the reader, bowing and tipping his hat in mock politeness."

Does Joker's Asylum count as breaking the 4th wall? The book is told to the reader by the Joker face-to-face, rather than as a record. Particularly in the tale about Two-Face, the Joker refuses to tell the reader the factual end of the tale and instead instructs them to flip a coin to see whether the story had a happy (reunited with wife) or sad (suicide) ending. Joker's Asylum doesn't specifically state that Joker's speaking to a reporter, or inmate, or someone who works at Arkham, but works with him speaking out of the book to a reader. [2] Raida7 (talk) 23:40, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd say yes, "Batman: Joker's Asylum" does count, since he's basically narrating to the reader before each tale. There's been quite a few current age comics where he's broken the fourth wall, I just wish I could remember the titles off-hand...

76.235.173.12 (talk) 03:30, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Enh, I'm not inclined to count Joker's Asylum. It has a look as if he might be talking to someone unseen. Even if he is talking to the reader, it's akin to the old days when Batman would say, "Hey, kids," to the readers but not within the context of the actual story. In Joker's Asylum, the Joker is only introducing these stories. He's not doing anything within the context of any other action/story. Doczilla STOMP! 16:35, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Iran

The storyline "A death in the family" had the Joker appointed as Iran's UN representative (yes, exactly as it sounds). It was retconed later to the fictional country of Qurac. Was there some real-world reaction to the Iranian thing (which may be interesting to add), or was it just DC? Cambalachero (talk) 02:51, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Source? When was it reconned to Qurac? Doczilla STOMP! 08:55, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

New Reference

This reference may be of interest to anyone who wants to write it up, if not I will when I get more time. Info about Jerry Robinson's conception of Joker. http://io9.com/5866373/rip-jerry-robinson-creator-of-batmans-nemesis-the-joker Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

"Fictional rapists"

I request for this category to be removed. Despite having done plenty of horrible things throught his career, the Joker has never actually raped any of his victims aside from the graphic novel written by Brian Azzarello, but that's strictly elseworlds and, contrary to popular belief, he didn't rape Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke, said by Alan Moore himself. (190.24.99.15 (talk) 15:36, 18 June 2012 (UTC))

Edit request on 17 August 2012

Could you add another paragraph after the one in "The New 52" section hinting The Joker's return in Batman Vol.2 #13 and #14 as writer Scott Snyder said he will be returning and so did the DC Comics Official Website which are two very reliable sources[3] RedhoodID (talk) 08:46, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Not done for now: I would write something like this, "Batman comic writer Scott Snyder has hinted that the Joker will be returning in volume 2 in number 13 and number 14." But the issue I have is that I am unable to find a source, you said that it was on DC comic's official website which is great and very reliable, but I couldn't find it. Do you happen to know where it is? Also, I have requested for the page to be unprotected. ObtundTalk 23:09, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Here are four of the links on the DC Comics Official Website that confirm his return:
  • [4]
  • [5]
  • [6]
  • [7] (when you watch it, you'll see a trailer before the video)

Thanks! RedhoodID (talk) 12:31, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Joker (comics)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: FruitMonkey (talk · contribs) 23:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC) I will be picking up this GA review, and will give detailed feed back over the next 48 hours. I have been involved in bringing 10 articles to GA status and I have a knowledge of silver age and modern comics which I hope will help with getting this article across the line. FruitMonkey (talk) 23:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Summing up

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

An excellent, highly readable wide-ranging article.

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

Review notes

1. Reasonably well written.

  • A. Prose: On the whole the prose is good and the written style and information is interesting.
    • I would suggest that after a book, graphic novel or comic the year is given to help aid chronology of story lines and concepts.
    • Golden Age
      • Needs dates as the casual reader will not understand what the Golden Age of comic is.
      • Last sentence needs a cite.
    • Silver Age
      • Needs dates as the casual reader will not understand what the Silver Age of comic is.
      • Comic book terms are being used but not wikilinked to aid the casual reader: 'retcon' and later 'one-shot' and 'crossover'.
      • The Silver Age of DC comics runs from 1956 until 1970, and only the first paragraph addresses the history of this time, it seems disproportionate to the rest of the article.
      • The second paragraph is very confusing to the casual reader. What is its importance?
      • Needs cites.
    • Post Crisis'
      • This section needs the largest overhaul. It is too large and unruly, covering far too much specific plot detail without showing chronology or why the stories are important to the character, who wrote them, etc.
      • Far too much plot of individual stories which are not major turning points of the character. Sections such as "Emperor Joker" can be written in a single sentence.
      • 'who, unknown to him, was then known as Batgirl' Known by who?


    • Powers, abilities, and equipment
      • Maybe an opening sentence to explain the characters main powers or lack thereof, which is unusual outside Batman's universe.
      • Equipment is returned to in the section entitled 'Character'.
      • 'The Joker is rendered sane by a nuclear war' how is this paragraph connected to Powers, abilities, and equipment.
      • The section refers to the Joker's ability to cheat death, and in one section states he was 'fatally' wounded, but does not explain if this is a power, illusions or just a running joke by the writers.
      • 'Joker's skills (sic) in combat also differ in the film and television adaptations.' How?
      • Despite multiple references to the Joker's face, as far as I can see little is made of his dress sense and iconic purple suit. That too should be addressed.
  • B. MoS compliance:
    • Lead. To meet GA criteria 1(b), which relates to specific manual of style guidelines, the article needs to comply with the advice in WP:LEAD. That is, in addition to being an introduction, the lead needs to be an adequate overview of the whole of the article. As a rough guide, each major section in the article should be represented with an appropriate summary in the lead. Also, the article should provide further details on all the things mentioned in the lead. Points mentioned in the lead but not covered in the article include 1) any critical reception. 2) depictions in other media (although another article exists to take the reader to a more detailed section, that article is not GA, so there needs to be at least a brief overview on this page to inform the reader.) 3) Popularity, the final paragraph in the lead details the character's popularity but this is not mentioned in the main article.
    • Citations. Citations use correct formatting throughout. Some cites to comic books use the Cite comic template, while others don't. The 'Joker is number 2' (cite 4) uses a citation template but is not completed. Several cites missing dates and accessdates.

2: Factually accurate and verifiable?

  • A. References to sources:
  • B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary
    • Several sections with few citations. In particular the sections Character and Powers, abilities, and equipment which have paragraphs uncited.
    • It would be good to see some investigation into how writers outside the comic world view the Joker. There are multiple books outside on the subject and none are explored here. A quick search brings up some volumes that could aid a critical study of the character:
The Joker: A Visual History of the Clown Prince of Crime Matthew Manning
The Best Batman Villians Exposed: Beyond The Joker Kim Swanson
Batman and Psychology: A Dark and Stormy Knight Travis Langley
The Many Lives of the Batman: Critical Approaches to a Superhero and His Media
Batman L Daniels
BATMAN UNAUTHORISED: Vigilantes, Jokers, and Heroes in Gotham City Dennis O'Neil
The Many Lives of the Batman: Critical Approaches to a Superhero and His Media Roberta Pearson
  • C. No original research

3: Broad in its coverage

  • A. Major aspects
    • Would gain from a section exploring 'Supporting characters' and 'Critical reception' the latter of which is mentioned in the lead.
    • The sections 'Other versions' and 'In other media' need to be expanded.
  • B. Focused
    • Lacks focus in the section Post Crisis, where it just strings together story lines. Needs to be tighter, less detailed and needs to focus on a larger character arc. Maybe looking at the interpretation by different writers.

6:Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

  • A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    • Images appear to be chosen for a specific reason apart from the cover of Batman 251, the free-use rationale of which is to give an "Illustration of a specific point within the article." The article fails to do this, it mentions the comic, but there is no reason given as to why the illustration is needed.

Pass/Fail

I've put the article on hold to allow editors to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. FruitMonkey (talk) 11:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

It has been several weeks, and only minimal changes have been made to the article. If the article hasn't made any significant progress toward becoming a Good Article, it is probably time to end the review. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:20, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
A request was made to hold the article for a few weeks, but no work has been done, and as the article is way off GA, it has to be a fail. FruitMonkey (talk) 21:50, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Change title into Joker (Batman)?

He does not only appear in comics but also in movies, videogames and television-series. Joker (Batman) looks more general than Joker (comics). IGG8998 (talk) 19:42, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Hundreds of comic characters appear in other media. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:49, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Super-hero movies and media are usually highly successful, more than they would be if only comic book readers consumed them, but it is a well known fact that super-heros were created in comics and then adapted to other media. In particular, nobody will commit the mistake of thinking that Batman (and by extension the Joker) was a movie character created by Christopher Nolan, even without having read a Batman comic book ever. Cambalachero (talk) 21:29, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
I know he was created in comics, but my point was that it sound more general to make the title Joker (Batman). There are also many appearances of him in other media. 83.84.17.246 (talk) 12:23, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
It is a standard to use the type of media in the note between ( ) when there is more than one article that may use the name. More detailed clarifications are used when "comics" is not enough and there are many ones with that name, with similar notability (as both Captain Marvel). That's not the case here. Cambalachero (talk) 13:07, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
If someone goes to the Joker disambiguation page, it will be clear that the Joker (comics) article is the one about the Batman character. Plus, Joker (Batman) is already a redirect to Joker (comics). GoingBatty (talk) 13:21, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

VGA Character of the Year 2011.

I think it should be noted that Arkham City's Joker has won Spike TV's VGA Character of the Year for 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.118.181.61 (talk) 12:03, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Here's the source: http://www.spike.com/press/2011/12/10/spike-tv-announces-2011-%e2%80%9cvideo-game-awards%e2%80%9d-winners/ GoingBatty (talk) 14:59, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
The article needs a reception section first. Otherwise where are you going to mention it? Darkwarriorblake (talk) 15:01, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
It's already mentioned on Batman: Arkham City#Accolades and Joker in other media#Batman: Arkham City, which I think is sufficient. Joker (comics) seems limited to the character's appearances in comics. GoingBatty (talk) 15:16, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. Discussion about whether "The Joker" should redirect to this article should continue elsewhere. Cúchullain t/c 03:57, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Joker (comics) → The Joker – Every single time people talk about the Joker in Batman (or wherever else), unless someone is speaking directly to him, he is always referred to as "The Joker". "The Joker" redirects here anyway. Unreal7 (talk) 19:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose "The Joker" should redirect to Joker (playing card) -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 06:00, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose See WP:THE. And for changing the redirect at "The Joker" - the playing cards are a generic term, not a definitive. - J Greb (talk) 01:44, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. We use "the", "if a word with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same word without the article". "The Joker" is a phrase with its own meaning. It is not simply a joker who was previously referred to. Kauffner (talk) 01:40, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
    • It means the playing card , since it is derived from The Fool (tarot card) -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 06:07, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
      • Derived from, but "the" was dropped when "fool" was changed to "joker". Apteva (talk) 09:47, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The change would be less precise and would serve no purpose. Far more people use playing cards than read comic books or even watch Batman movies. Doczilla STOMP! 18:28, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
    • Even if you've never seen a Batman film you'll still have heard of the Joker. Unreal7 (talk) 15:03, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
      • And even if you've never played cards, you'll still heard of the Jokers in the deck. Doczilla STOMP! 19:28, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
      • Though I keep meeting people who don't know the comic book character, since comic books are still a niche product. It's not one of the big big comic book characters (the DC triumvirate, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman; or Marvel's Spiderman; or the European Tintin, Lucky Luke, Asterix) so we shouldn't assume people would recognize the Joker. Playing cards are much more widely distributed than comics. -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 07:38, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Considering the large number of entries at Joker#Fictional characters, it's IMO unsafe to even treat the Batman villian as the primary meaning of Joker or The Joker as a fictional character. There is no primary topic, even in that restricted context. So it's certainly not the primary topic overall. The Joker should redirect to the DAB at Joker. Andrewa (talk) 02:16, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
    • Evidence, please? I mean, the disambiguator here is just "comics", so that would indicate that it's obvious which Joker is meant when speaking of comics, wouldn't it? Powers T 16:13, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. From schoolboy doggerel ("and The Joker got away...") to modern scholarship ([8]), "The Joker" is clearly a reference to Batman's arch-nemesis. I can't imagine anyone looking for the playing card would search for "The" Joker. Powers T 16:13, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Even though this is a very famous comics character, the playing card is more notable, so disambiguation is needed. JIP | Talk 07:14, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
Fair enough, but that's not an argument against moving to The Joker (comics). --213.168.89.157 (talk) 21:27, 21 November 2012 (UTC) Changed my mind below. --213.168.89.157 (talk) 21:35, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. No one would propose moving Joker (the card) to the joker (which now redirects to this article), which still would not conflict with The Joker (which already redirects to this article). Only the novel is called Joker, and the character therein is still called "The Joker". I see no reason for not moving this to The Joker, and in any case Joker (comics) is an invalid title, because no where in either the comic books or in the Batman movies is the character referred to as "Joker", but always as "The Joker". This is an obvious move. Apteva (talk) 09:47, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. Per WP:THE, "These conditions are sometimes met if the page name is:
  • the title of a work or publication (e.g., The Old Man and the Sea, or The New York Times), or
  • the official or commonly used name or nickname of a group, sports team or company (e.g., The Beatles, The Invincibles, The Hershey Company), or
  • another official or commonly used proper name (e.g., The Hague, The Crown, The Nature Conservancy).
Imho, this case falls squarely into the category of exceptions. On a closely related note, Thing (comics) should be moved to The Thing for the exact same reason. --213.168.89.157 (talk) 20:46, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose for the simple fact that The Joker is not his name, Joker is. If you can't imagine during a conversation Batman saying "I never knew you were this evil The Joker", then your stance is wrong. Same reason Batman is not at The Batman.Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:48, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
If you can't imagine during a conversation Batman saying "I never knew you were this evil The Joker", then your stance is wrong. -- Nonsense. By that logic, "The Beatles" would be wrong since people commonly say "I'm Beatles fan" rather than "I'm a The Beatles fan". Your rationale is invalid. --213.168.89.157 (talk) 21:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
The two are different conversations, you would not speak directly to The Beatles and call them "The Beatles" except speaking about the entire group. "How did you come up with the idea for The Beatles?". Noone would say "I am a The Beatles fan", they would say "I'm a Beatles fan" or "I'm a fan of The Beatles". "Hello The Beatles". Not gonna happen. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:46, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose - per the primary source; and The Joker should point to the DAB rather than to this article as both this character and the playing card share notability, with neither being the clear primary subject. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:54, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose, per WP:THE, which tells us, amongst other things, that the definite article should only be included if it changes the meaning (not the case here, as the Joker is named for a person who plays practical jokes ie. a joker) or if the article would normally be capitalized in running text (also not the case on this page, nor in any of the Batman franchise articles we have)
We also don’t use it if the usual convention is to not use it; and there is no difference here from the treatment of any other similar comic-book character (viz the Batman, the Riddler, the Thing or the Hulk, whose names all take the definite article.
I’d also note that WP:THE uses Joker (comics) as a specific example of not using the definite article (see here) which makes me wonder about the purpose of this RM; is it being lodged to take a swipe at the guideline? Moonraker12 (talk) 23:25, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I don't know but its been open for 22 days so its time to close it. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 23:32, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Section headers after Post Crisis?

I don't really follow the DC era's and it's not easy to break up the Post Crisis section by character changes because is always Joker, are there any era names or such that can be used as headers to break up the large chunk of post-crisis text? Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:47, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Jut looking at it, I'd say trim it, don't section it. Bring it in line with the weight it deserves and jettison the blatant plot dumps. - J Greb (talk) 23:06, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 February 2013

Please add Michael Emerson to the list of Joker voice actors (in the recently released, animated The Dark Knight Returns, Part 2). 174.102.99.76 (talk) 19:14, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done - thanks for the suggestion! GoingBatty (talk) 20:02, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
This shouldn't have been done, the list in the lede is ridiculous, is it just going to keep on growing with every portrayal? It needs boiling down to the notable ones, not an exhaustive list of anyone who ever happened to get cast in a direct to dvd feature. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:18, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
 Done - trimmed the list from nine to three. Please feel free to change the list if I didn't pick the most notable. GoingBatty (talk) 20:46, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Batty, I didn't mean for you to do it yourself, I tried but couldn't think how to phrase it. It will still probably need some sort of qualifier in the future because as I've learned at Saturday Night Live people will always keep adding their favorites, but its a big improvement. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:19, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Is the Joker related to Guys and Dolls?

Just read a story by Damon Runyon, who was a popular author in the period before Batman appeared. I was unfamiliar with him, but WIkipedia mentions that "Guys and Dolls" originated with him. In "Sense of Humor", the character Joe the Joker reminded me of Batman's Joker in several ways. So far I have not found any evidence in Wikipedia or outside of a linkage or lack of linkage between the two characters, but it certainly must have been speculated upon at the time... Well, maybe not if the later Joker that I'm more familiar with had only evolved to seem more like Joe the Joker at a later date... Anyway, if there is a linkage or if it has been proven that there is no linkage, then it would be good if it were mentioned in the article. Shanen (talk) 00:57, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Useful sources

I am going to add as many sources as I can here that may be useful, and if anyone else has any please add them.Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:49, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Top Lists
Needed
  • Sources about notable Joker plots in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 90s, and 00s.
  • Merchandise

Image for "In other media" section

I think an image would be appropriate for the section but could use some input. Since we prepare free images and the article already has several Non-free ones I'm leaning towards real people, so Hamill or Ledger, Hamill for his association, long tenure, etc, Ledger for winning the Oscar. Any input? Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 October 2013

The description under the "Golden Age" heading, contains an error. In the sentence "The 1942 cover of Detective Comics #62, known as "Double Guns, depicting the Joker emerging from a genie lamp wielding two guns at Batman and Robin is considered one of the greatest superhero comic covers of the Golden Age. " The cover referred to is actually Detective Comics #69, not #62, though both feature the Joker. Please change "Detective Comics #62" to "Detective Comics #69" to correct, thank you. (See - http://www.comicconnect.com/data/Image/gallery425/det1.11151a.jpg) Psilocide (talk) 21:10, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Done Thanks, Celestra (talk) 21:55, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Replacement infobox image

I was looking at the possibility of replacing the existing infobox image here with this one from "The Origin of the Joker" by Mark Waid in 2007. I think the replacement shows more of his costume, a head on of his face and the three-cards representing the multiple origin aspect. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 23:10, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm agree if the image is free and all the stuff... Arussom (talk) 14:20, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Request for help

Considering there are apparently 400+ watchers on this article I find this talk page and my previous requests somewhat quiet. I've pretty much exhausted the avenues available tom e, I still have some notes to add from The Joker: A Visual History of the Clown Prince of Crime which I ultimately had to buy to obtain since Libraries are too cheap to get it for me, but this book sadly does not contain any info on popular culture impact or merchandising, and I think both of these will be necessary to flesh out to push this article to FA once I send it for a copyedit and submit it to GA. My Googlefu has failed me because typing things like "the joker" and "origin" and "popular culture" or "toys" gets nothing I can use here. So any help, ANY help would be appreciated. Beyond GoingBatty's ce/formatting help. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 22:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Homoerotic relationship with Batman?

Since that particular theory doesn't seem to be supported by a RS, it may be original research and should probably be removed. Miniapolis 19:54, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

What's unreliable about it? Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:06, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
If it's not verified in the Duncan Smith book there's no source, reliable or otherwise. Miniapolis 19:44, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm not clear on what you mean here, it's in the book. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:52, 9 April 2014 (UTC)


Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2014

Should Richard Epcar, the Joker's voice actor in the Injustice games, be included alongside Mark Hamill et al in the article's introduction? 120.146.186.233 (talk) 09:04, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Done Sam Sailor Sing 12:48, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge

The article's page for Joker from Dark Knight is a WP:CFORK that could easily be described here rather than have a separate article. This article also already has detail on this addition, so a separate article is not needed. Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:45, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Disagree, the Dark Knight's Joker is a completely distinct and unique character. Merging it with the Joker (comics) would be cluttered and confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rusher36 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Moving to Joker (character)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. After an extended period of discussion, opinions on this matter remain roughly evenly split, with legitimate arguments being made on both sides. I would suggest that the better course of action would be to open a discussion involving the appropriate Wikiprojects to hammer out a specific rule for situations where there is a comic book character whose name is not the primary topic of the term, for whom there is also a comic book under the same name, and for whom the character also appears in other media. bd2412 T 14:37, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Joker (comics) → Joker (character) – It should be moved to Joker (character) to follow WP:PRECISION and "unambiguously define the topical scope of the article". --76.175.67.121 (talk) 18:29, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Support. Similar to the discussion at Penguin (comics). The Joker is not only a comics character, but has appeared in three feature films, television series, etc. For many readers, Heath Ledger's portrayal will be more familiar than any comics publication. There are a few other notable fictional characters sometimes called "Joker", like Pvt. Joker from Full Metal Jacket, but this specific character is clearly the primary usage of t"Joker" alone for a fictional character. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 20:15, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose and only weak because, let's face it, it doesn't really matter. However, whether in film, animation or something else, he's a comic book character. Gregkaye ✍♪ 21:58, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Alternate Use Joker (DC Comics character) instead. Per other comments, there are other Jokers, and 'joker' is also a character trait, and standard character type found in performance fiction. Wikipedia does not distinguish uppercase and lowercase first letters, so there is no distinguishing between Joker/joker ; the current disambiguator is also ambiguous, thus bad, since Joker (comic book) is also a comics topic, and many people refer to comic books as "comics", as well as Joker (comic strip) an unrelated comics topic; That comic book was published by DC Comics , which is why Joker (DC Comics) is also ambiguous and cannot be used either. "comics" and "DC Comics" should redirect to the disambiguation page. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 04:52, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support per the previous consensus at similar moves per WP:NCC that caused the title updates of Wolverine (character) vs Wolverine (comic book), and Kick-Ass (character) vs Kick-Ass (comic book). Precedent has formed consensus for this move, considering that Joker (comic book) exists, and the current title of the proposed article could, indeed, is ambiguous enough to refer to the subject in Joker (comic book). Steel1943 (talk) 03:30, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:PRECISE Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:38, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment. Aren't there other "characters" called Joker? I see about 15 of them on the dab page at Joker. Isn't the proposed title less precise? Dekimasuよ! 03:34, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
    • If we moved it to Joker (DC Comics character) it would solve that problem. The current title "comics" is also imprecise per comic books and comic strips also having this name, there being two comic books from DC Comics by this name and the character. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 05:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The Joker originated from the comics and is most famous for the comics. Using "(comics)" as a disambiguation is standard for such articles. JIP | Talk 09:05, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
  • @JIP: At the present time, it doesn't seem to be the standard if a "comic book" and a "character" article both exist separately, per my response above. Steel1943 (talk) 11:54, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per my similar argument at Talk:Penguin (comics)#Moving to Penguin (character): "Oppose per WP:NCCOMICS, which states, '...the agreed general disambiguation phrase used for articles related to comics, including creators, publications, and content, is "(comics)".' I also find that "character" reduces recognizability, which is a characteristic to consider per WP:CRITERIA. I understand that this figure has appeared in other media, but his most recurring presence is in the comics. Other kinds of appearances are secondary." While the Joker is more prominent in film than the Penguin, I find that these characters already have strong preexisting roots in comic books. It is not like they were little-known characters that found notability on the big screen. Joker in other media, while messy, seems to be a proper space to discuss the use of the character beyond its roots, which are especially well-discussed here as a GA candidate. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:47, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
  • @Erik: I agreed with the "opposes" on the Penguin (comics) discussion, but not on this one; this move request is different since there are both a "character" and a "comic book" article (unlike the other recent similar move requests that had only a character article.) And, the phrase that you highlighted:

    "...the agreed general disambiguation phrase used for articles related to comics, including creators, publications, and content, is "(comics)"."...

    ...with the way that it is currently worded, seems to translate that the disambiguator "(comics)" could refer to any comics-related topic, meaning that it could refer to the character or the comic book, rendering the "(comics)" disambiguator ambiguous since there is more than one article which the disambiguator could refer. With that being said, in this specific case, the best option would be to have the title with the disambiguator "(comics)" point towards a disambiguation page so that the reader to determine which title they are trying to locate. Steel1943 (talk) 18:37, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The House of Hush

Should we mention the backstory from the comic "The House of Hush"? It features a young boy named "Sonny" who Paul Dini claims is a young Joker. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.194.218.25 (talk) 03:38, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

  1. ^ Spider-Man and Batman #1
  2. ^ http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/graphic_novels/?gn=10567
  3. ^ . DC Comics.com http://www.dccomics.com/videos/sdcc-2012-twitter-verse-questions-with-scott-snyder. Retrieved 17 August 2012. {{cite web}}: External link in |publisher= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
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