Talk:Josip Broz Tito/Archive 8

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NPOV format

According to suggestions and appreciations, in priors page's sections, of users Silvio1973, Passando, Tzowu, Jean Jacques George, FkpCascais, Volunteer Marek, My very best wishes and other IPs, I present this NPOV format, restoring informations with reliable sources already linked in the past, but habitual POV accounts removed valid material all at once.

[introduction]

Josip Broz, nicknamed Tito, was a Yugoslav revolutionary and statesman, serving in various roles from 1943 until his death in 1980.[5] During World War II he was the leader of the Partisans]. He gained international attention as the chief leader of the Non-Aligned Movement, working with Jawaharlal Nehru of India, Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt and Sukarno of Indonesia.[14]

After being seriously wounded and captured by the Imperial Russians during World War I, Broz was sent to a work camp in the Ural Mountains. He participated in the October Revolution, and later joined a Red Guard unit in Omsk. Later he was NKVD agent and member in communist party of the Soviet Union under Stalin's command. He was General Secretary (later Chairman of the Presidium) of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia (1939–80), and went on to lead the World War II Yugoslav guerrilla movement, the Partisans (1941–45).[15] After the war, Broz Tito and his titoist followers consolidated their power through a series of laws that transformed the nation into a one-party dictatorship: he was the Prime Minister (1944–63), President (later President for Life) (1953–80) of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRY). From 1943 to his death in 1980, he held the rank of Marshal of Yugoslavia, serving as the supreme commander of the Yugoslav military, the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA).

Tito was the chief architect of the second Yugoslavia, a socialist federation that lasted from 1943 to 1991–92. Despite being one of the founders of Cominform, he was also the first (and the only successful) Cominform member to defy Soviet hegemony. A backer of independent roads to socialism (sometimes referred to as "national communism"), he was one of the main forces behind the Non-Aligned Movement, and its first Secretary-General. He supported the policy of nonalignment between the two hostile blocs in the Cold War. In 1951 he implemented a self-management system that differentiated Yugoslavia from other socialist countries. He remains a very controversial figure in the Balkans.

[Historical debate]

[Criticism]

Democide

Broz is accused of democide by important historians. [1]

His presidency was been criticized as dictatorship which made dramatical bloody repression, supported by OZNA and UDBA, and several massacres of POW and civilians after second world war, such as Bleiburg, Tezno, Yazovka, Kocevski Rog, Macelj, Backa, Foibe massacres, etc.

In the years following the dissolution of Yugoslavia, a number of historians have stated that human rights were suppressed in Yugoslavia under Tito, particularly in the first decade up until the Tito-Stalin split. Broz Tito's autocracy organized huge system of concentration camps and prisons such as Borovnica concentration camp, Goli Otok, Sveti Grgur, etc. On 4 October 2011, the Slovenian Constitutional Court found a 2009 naming of a street in Ljubljana after Tito to be unconstitutional. While several public areas in Slovenia (named during the Yugoslav period) do already bear Tito's name, on the issue of renaming an additional street the court ruled that:

The name "Tito" does not only symbolise the liberation of the territory of present-day Slovenia from fascist occupation in World War II, as claimed by the other party in the case, but also grave violations of human rights and basic freedoms, especially in the decade following World War II.

Ethnic cleansing

Tito has also been named as responsible for ethnic cleansing.

He is accused for systematic eradication of the ethnic German (Danube Swabian) population in Vojvodina by expulsions and mass executions following the collapse of the German occupation of Yugoslavia at the end of World War II. [2]

During his tenure as Prime Minister of Yugoslavia, the Foibe massacres happened: the killings took place mainly in Istria during and shortly after World War II from 1943 to 1949, perpetrated mainly by Yugoslav Partisans..

The estimated number of people killed is disputed and varies from hundreds to thousands.

The report by the mixed Italian-Slovenian commission describes the circumstances of the 1945 killings as:

“ 14. These events were triggered by the atmosphere of settling accounts with the fascist violence; but, as it seems, they mostly proceeded from a preliminary plan which included several tendencies: endeavours to remove persons and structures who were in one way or another (regardless of their personal responsibility) linked with Fascism, with Nazi supremacy, with collaboration and with the Italian state, and endeavours to carry out preventive cleansing of real, potential or only alleged opponents of the communist regime, and the annexation of the Julian March to the new Yugoslavia. The initial impulse was instigated by the revolutionary movement which was changed into a political regime, and transformed the charge of national and ideological intolerance between the partisans into violence at national level. ”

It has been alleged that the killings were part of a purge aimed at eliminating potential enemies of communist Yugoslav rule, while others see the main motive for the killings as retribution for the years of Italian oppression and others point out Tito's political aim of adding the Istrian territories as far as Trieste and the city itself to the new Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia . In fact the ethnic map of the area could potentially be a decisive factor in a treaty of peace with Italy.

Nowadays, a large part of the Italian Left acknowledges the nature of the foibe killings, as attested by some declarations of Luigi Malabarba, Senator for the Communist Refoundation Party, during the parliamentary debate on the institution of the National Memorial Day: "In 1945 there was a ruthless policy of exterminating opponents. Here, one must again recall Stalinism to understand what Tito's well-organized troops did. (...) Yugoslav Communism had deeply assimilated a return to nationalism that was inherent to the idea of 'Socialism in One Country'. (...) The war, which had begun as anti-fascist, became anti-German and anti-Italian."

Undue enrichment

Broz is accused of undue personal enrichment by fraudulent gains, which impoverished Yugoslav State's public property; [3]criticism heaped on Broz Tito's lustful lifestyle: from 1974 he had 32 official residences, one of the ten richest men in the Balkans, a communist who lived like a king. [4] Broz Tito constructed huge personality cult around him.

[Favourable]

Journalist and writer Shapiro asserts: ...All Yugoslavs had educational opportunities, jobs, food, and housing regardless of nationality. Tito, seen by most as a benevolent dictator, brought peaceful co-existence to the Balkan region, a region historically synonymous with factionalism. Some historians report his successful diplomatic policies and reputation as popular public figure both in Yugoslavia and abroad, and he was viewed as a unifying symbol, he was very popular among the Yugoslav citizens.

I am ready to accept all your counselsTeo Pitta (talk) 15:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

IPA

@Tuvixer: Clearly, you were lying when you said that I'm changing the article without further explanation. It is you who are choosing not to read the edit summaries. I suggest that you go there and read them again, this time carefully. Mentioning edit-warring in such circumstances is a hypocrisy beyond belief, especially given the fact that your only argument is "I am a native speaker".

I am perfectly aware of the fact that BCS doesn't normally devoice word-final obstruents (save for some accents of Croatian, and immigrant accents from Slovenia and Macedonia.) However, that is not what I'm speaking about! What I'm speaking about is assimilation of voicing when pronouncing the whole name of JBT without a pause. Whereas it may be possible for a native speaker of BCS to pronounce Josip Broz with [p b] (a released voiceless [p] followed by voiced [b]) rather than [b̚b] (long [b]) (I don't actually know), it's not possible to pronounce Broz Tito with [z t]. It must be [s t]. The source, which I already presented to you and you chose to ignore it, is Handbook of the IPA (which stands for International Phonetic Association), page 68: "voiced obstruents alternate with their voiceless counterparts when followed by a voiceless obstruent." You, on the other hand, have presented zero evidence (apart from "I am a native speaker") to back up the [z t] pronunciation. Peter238 (talk) 11:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

That is only your opinion, and it is false. I know because I speak BHS. Please, I beg you, stop this and show some good faith and revert your edit and place the letter z. Tnx.

You are changing the article, and you do not have consensus. It is only you who is for this change. Please stop this.

Do you speak BHS?

I have read the "summaries, and they are nonsense, really, man that is my mother tongue, I mean, why would I lie about that. It is so stupid.

You are crazy man. xD I am joking of course, but this is really insane. I have now asked 10 people who I kone to pronounce Josip Broz Tito and everyone pronounced it with z. Please, really stop this, it is insane, and I probably think that you do not know BHS, to push your own opinion. You can't change the article without consensus. I mean, I tried to reason with you but is seems that I have failed, so please show some good faith, or I will have to report you. :/ --Tuvixer (talk) 11:56, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Rewrite your message citing reliable sources or I'm done talking to you. Peter238 (talk) 12:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

You are so stubborn. http://www.forvo.com/word/josip_broz_tito/ http://www.pronounceitright.com/pronounce/6782/josip-broz-tito Please revert now. Tnx --Tuvixer (talk) 12:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

First of all, these are not reliable, and they require listening to the audio clip and making an OR judgement about the pronunciation. Either way, you clearly don't understand what "without a pause" and "in isolation" means. Galaksija's pronunciation from Forvo as well as the PronounceItRight pronunciation are not "without a pause", these are enunciated in a way that makes every word sound exactly as it sounds when pronounced in isolation. I've already said twice that in this case, it is obvious that the correct pronunciations of Josip and Broz are the ones that end with [p] and [z], respectively.

Lutalac's pronunciation from Forvo is much closer to what I meant. It features a released voiceless [p] as well as somewhat devoiced [z]. It's still unclear of how representative this is of the normal pronunciation.

What we need is an academic source that states that BCS doesn't feature voicing assimilation. Until that, the IPA must stay as it is, as it's sourced. Peter238 (talk) 12:21, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

People who live in the former Yugoslavia are not idiots and they do not pronounce names in a millisecond. I really don't understand why are we having this discussion. I speak BHS, you do not, end of story, you source is also not reliable and you are proposing changes, you do not have a consensus on this matter so show some good faith and revert your edit. And if it is so important to you, then ask for a 3O. But before that show some good faith and revert it to z. Tnx

And yes, when you pronounce it together iz is still Josip Broz Tito. A situation when someone says "I am Josip Broz Tito" and the other person says "Is it spelled with a S or a Z?" is unthinkable and never heard of. It is apsurd. Put aside the fact that everyone knows who Tito is. I hope you understand now. :)

I can see maybe why you think it is s instead of z. When you try to pronounce Josip Broz Tito as fast as you can it really sounds "JosiBrosTito", but only if you try to say it as fast as you can. When you speak in normal tone and speed it is "Josip Broz Tito je bio..." Why would I lie?? --Tuvixer (talk) 12:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

We are having this conversation because you ignore most of what I say, including the fact that being a native speaker does not mean you're able to hear the pronunciation nuances of your language.

Landau et al. (1999) is not reliable? Prove it. Before that, read Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. I can prove that Forvo and PronounceItRight are not reliable:

- they require WP:OR auditory judgement on the pronunciation. As a native speaker, you are in no better situation than anyone else to hear voicing assimilation in your language. Especially if you have never undergone a phonetic training.

- Forvo, even if it provides the IPA (it doesn't in this case), it's from Wiktionary, which itself is not a reliable sources because anyone can edit it.

- At least on Forvo, native speakers can upload whatever pronunciation they wish, and it immediately becomes available to the public. It can take quite a time to remove incorrect pronunciations.

Let me repeat myself: we need an academic source that states that BCS doesn't feature voicing assimilation. While it may be true that the final /p/ of Josip is normally released and thus more likely to stay voiceless (but Landau et al. (1999) don't say that), it is clear that Broz is pronounced Bros in the situation we're talking about. This is supported by Lutalac's pronunciation on Forvo, but that's not a reliable source. Peter238 (talk) 13:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Read this: http://hrvatskijezik.eu/gramatika/ --Tuvixer (talk) 13:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Don't be a hypocrite. What you are doing now is telling the people, whose language you do not speak, how to speak their language. Insane. Please show good faith and revert your edit or I will really have to report you. Your fascism will not pass. No pasaran!--Tuvixer (talk) 13:21, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

It seems that you are fabricating your source. I read page 68 and there is nothing to back your case. --Tuvixer (talk) 13:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll keep answering your messages, because the way you talk to me says something about you, not me.

[5] seems like a good start, thanks. The sentence "Izgovor glasa ovisi o pojedincu (tj. o govorniku) i o okolini u kojoj se glas nađe." seems to be what we're looking for, but I'm not sure whether "glas" means "voicing [of the consonant]", or "sound".

I am not fabricating anything. Either you're lying and haven't read the Handbook of the IPA, or you don't understand the language used there. I stated clearly that the relevant sentence is "voiced obstruents alternate with their voiceless counterparts when followed by a voiceless obstruent." Peter238 (talk) 13:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

You do not understand the Croatian language so I maybe can understand why you think it is s and not z. What you are saying would mean that "Skroz tamo je..." is pronounced "Skros tamo je..." and that is true. But the same rule does not apply to names of a person. "On je Josip Broz Tito." is pronounced "On je Josip Broz Tito." because in the Croatian language personal names must be pronounced clear and how they are written. Only "Anka" is pronounced with a nasal n, but still a n. Tnx I hope now you will understand. :) --Tuvixer (talk) 14:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I can believe in special rules (e.g. clearer-than-normally pronunciation) being applied to names. It's what happens in Danish, where only the surname is stressed, and the stød is retained only on the surname. I've restored the transcription without the voicing assimilation. Peter238 (talk) 14:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I am not a expert on grammar so I could not know that you were unfamiliar with that "rule". I is almost automatic in our language, it just struck me now. :) Best wishes. :) --Tuvixer (talk) 14:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Just one more thing: I doubt you would find that rule in a grammar book. Even when these describe pronunciation, it's often brief, incomplete and only a general description of the most important features of the phonetics of a given language. What you'd need to read is a detailed book about the phonetics of Croatian. If you're interested in this subject, check out the list on Serbo-Croatian phonology#References. Peter238 (talk) 16:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Tnx :) --Tuvixer (talk) 10:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Or, Peter, you could attempt to comprehend the simple fact that "provincialisms", as we call them, bastardizations of literary, official language - are neither accepted nor tolerated in polite society. In other words - what you suggested was - that local, or even personal distortions of correct speech - is somehow a Rule of pronounciation. I've never heard of such nonsense. Noone on this Planet would suggest that the fact that slang and semi-literacy exist -- confirms that those distortions ARE in Fact the correct way to speak the language they come from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.69.152.163 (talk) 02:05, 7 August 2015 (UTC)