Talk:Kala Kato

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I wanted to give an explanation here for why I removed the content related to Yan Tatsine, since the talk page allows me to go into greater detail than is possible in an edit summary. My reason is simple: Kala Kato and Yan Tatsine are two distinct groups with two different Wikipedia articles. And the content for Yan Tatsine belongs in the Yan Tatsine article, not the Kala Kato article.

How are Kala Kato and Yan Tatsine different? Here are a few differences:

1) Yan Tatsine are militants. . . but Kala Kato is peaceful, as noted by their leader, Malam Isiyaka Salisu.

2) Yan Tatsine are Luddites. . . but Kala Kato aren't. Indeed, one of the reasons so little is known about Yan Tatsine's beliefs is because, unlike Kala Kato, they haven't produced any tapes, video, cds, etc.

3) Yan Tatsine rejects "Western" education. . . but Kala Kato doesn't. Indeed, one of Kala Kato's leaders, Mallam Saleh Idris, is highly educated.

4) And last, but certainly not least, Yan Tatsine is not Quranist. . . but Kala Kato is Quranist. The closest I've seen to a source saying that Yan Tatsine is Quranist is the 7th source by Neils Kastfelt in Yan Tatsine's Wikipedia article, aptly titled "Rumours of Maitatsine: A Note on Political Culture in Northern Nigeria". I say aptly titled because Yan Tatsine's rumoured Quranist beliefs are just that. . . rumours. The article says that Yan Tatsine, ". . . seems to have rejected the hadith and sunna. . .". And a recent edit in the Kala Kato article by the editor I'm in a disagreement with cites a book (Christian-Muslim Dialogue in Northern Nigeria: A Socio-Political and Theological consideration, By Thaddeus Byimui Umaru), which in turn cites the aforementioned article (Rumours of Maitatsine: A Note on Political Culture in Northern Nigeria), as a source. However, the aforementioned article does not meet Wikipedia's standards as a reliable source. WP:RUMOUR states that, "Speculation and rumor, even from reliable sources, are not appropriate encyclopedic content". This is why my good faith edits removed the Yan Tatsine content from Kala Kato's article. And this is why I insist that this content related to Yan Tatsine be put in Yan Tatsine's Wikipedia article. 2602:306:CC8F:65A0:71A0:15A:89B8:F150 (talk) 01:53, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

STOP REMOVING SOURCES RELATED TO KALA KATO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quranism (talk • contribs)

• Quranism, if this IP starts playing by the rules, without the edit warring, you don't have a leg to stand on. I'm going to drop an edit warring template on your talk page, for next time, so you can't claim you weren't warned. Drmies (talk) 05:09, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

This article still has some glaring defects due to the editing of Quranism. Specifically, it still conflates Kala Kato with Yan Tatsine. Kala Kato is not the same group as Yan Tatsine. Kala Kato is not an "off-shoot" of Yan Tatsine either.

In addition to the other distinguishing characteristics that I mentioned in my initial comment on this talk page, Yan tatsine is hierarchical and has only one leader at a time. It was originally lead by Muhammad Marwa until he was killed. Then it was lead by Mallam Badamasi until he was killed. At present, it's lead by Musa Makaniki. On the other hand, Kala Kato is more of a movement and, at any given time, it has more than one leader. At present, it is lead by people like Mallam Saleh Idris Bello, Mallam Usman Dangungu, Mallam Musa Ibbi, Mallam Alhasan Lamido, and others.

During the violent 2009 Yan Tatsine riots -- which takes up a lot of space in the current version of a Wikipedia article that's supposed to be about Kala Kato -- Mallam Badamasi was the leader of Yan Tatsine. However, at that same time, Mallam Isiyaka Salisu was the most prominent leader of Kala Kato. When he was interviewed in 2009 (the same year as the riots), he made it quite clear that Kala Kato rejected the type of wanton violence that Yan Tatsine, Boko Haram, and other groups engaged in. The interview says that: "He said his group is preaching its mission through peaceful means, explaining that his group has no link with the Boko-Haram followers."

Despite this, recent edits by Quranism give the false impression that Kala Kato uses violence to achieve its ends. One of Quranism's references -- the 9th one in the current version of the article -- even quotes "Kala Kato" rioters as chanting "Boko Haram" (which means "Western education is forbidden" in the Hausa language)! As I pointed out in my initial comment here, Kala Kato does not believe that Western education is forbidden. So, what explains this incongruence? It's because the dubious reference that Quranism cites is based on the speculation of people outside the group who are unfamiliar with it's beliefs and practices and who mistake it for other groups. In this particular instance, the reference was literally the man on the street! We know that Kala Kato doesn't believe in using violence to achieve its ends, and we know that it doesn't believe that Western education is forbidden. We know this because there are numerous reliable sources that say so. And the Wikipedia article on Kala Kato should reflect this.

I want to be very emphatic, Quranism edits here and on other articles related to Kala Kato are extremely misleading. I repeat, Kala Kato and Yan Tatsine are not the same group, and Kala Kato is not an "offshoot" of Yan Tatsine. They are totally different. And clicking on a Wikipedia article about Kala Kato and finding all of the content being about Yan Tatsine is akin to clicking on a Wikipedia article about Jews for Justice for Palestinians and finding that all the content is about the Hilltop Youth instead. Yes, Kala Kato and Yan Tatsine are that distinctive!

I think that all of the material related to Yan Tatsine should be removed from Kala Kato's Wikipedia article and and the Quranism Wikipedia article. But before I make such an edit, I want to hear Quranism's explanation for his recent edits. Specifically, this one, and this one. Perhaps we could reach some type of consensus on what to do. 2602:306:CC8F:65A0:58F6:4F4E:4CE1:CE78 (talk) 00:57, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

I came here after noticing the brief edit war at the Quranism article. Just wanted to mention that the one source previously linking Kala Kato to Yan Tatsine is a self-published book, which is usually not regarded as reliable. I support the IP in their recent edit to this article. --HyperGaruda (talk) 14:45, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

YouTube has a lot of YouTube videos depicting Kala Kato as violent looooool — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quranism (talk • contribs) 05:10, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Your personal YouTube channel is not a reliable source for encyclopedic content, Quranism (talk • contribs). But thanks for finally deigning to explain on the talk page what has influenced your recent dubious edits. When you're not being a POV Warrior, I hope you're doing something better with your time than getting your information about the world from YouTube videos, and passing these gems onto unsuspecting Wikipedia readers. 2602:306:CC8F:65A0:E4C8:2579:EE2C:7B51 (talk) 23:15, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Response to 2602:306:CC8F:65A0:58F6:4F4E:4CE1:CE78

Dear 2602:306:CC8F:65A0:58F6:4F4E:4CE1:CE78

You claim that Yan Tatsine are Luddites. PROVIDE your proof. You claim that all of Kalla Kato have nothing to do with the Yan Tatsine, yet there are many leaders of Kala Kato who claim to be an off-shoot of Yan Tatsine, such as Mallam Badamasi: evidence: https://wwrn.org/articles/32352/

You claim that the Kala Kato are being "oppressed" by Sunnis, yet you provide no proof of this. So provide your PROOF. You also used a Pdf document of what a Sunni imam has to say about Kala Kato, which is just opinion with no evidence.

Not all Kala Kato share the same views. There are many groups within them. There is no single leader of Kala Kato, yet you like to claim they are. And there are some among them who claim to be an off-shoot of the Yan Tatsine, such as Mallam Badamasi. So stop playing games and wasting peoples time. You are a vandalist.

You also claim that this account is being used by someone you blocked. Yet again, you have no proof. Many shared IP addresses are used by many Wikipedia users.

So provide your proof.

Dear IP 194.61.223.68,

I've given detailed explanations of my edits in my previous comments above. I'm not about to repeat myself. You don't seem to understand how the "burden of proof" works. You claim that there are "many leaders" of Kala Kato who claim it to be an off-shoot of Yan Tatsine". Let's forget the "many leaders" for a moment, can you quote just ONE leader of Kala Kato who says that? How about Mallam Badamasi (the leader of Yan Tatsine, not Kala Kato)? Can you give me a direct quote from the article that you cited as "evidence" where Badamasi says that? YOU are the one making this claim so YOU prove it! Thus far, you haven't done so. And citing an article on the internet (e.g. from "World-Wide Religious News") that copies verbatim another article on the internet (e.g. from "Daily Sun") is not "evidence" to the contrary. It's not MY responsibility to disprove the ridiculous claims that YOU make about Kala Kato.

As for my claim that IP 194.61.223.68 is a sockpuppet of Quranism (talk • contribs), here the burden of proof is actually mine not yours. For proof of this, I would ask interested observers to note that Quranism (talk • contribs)'s account was blocked indefinitely on March 2, 2019. The LAST edit by this blocked account to a Wikipedia article was to the Quranism article on March 2, 2019. The FIRST edit by this sockpuppet, IP 194.61.223.68, was shortly thereafter on June 5, 2019 to the Yan Tatsine article (here), the same group this editor keeps trying to conflate with Kala Kato. The next day on June 6, 2019, this sockpuppet, IP 194.61.223.68, was back making edits to the Quranism article (here). The sockpuppet IP 194.61.223.68 and the Quranism (talk • contribs) account even made the SAME edit to the SAME Quranism Wikipedia article (here and here)! Now ask yourselves, is it a coincidence that activity from the IP 194.61.223.68 BEGAN after activity from the Quranism (talk • contribs) account ENDED, or is more likely that IP 194.61.223.68 is a sockpuppet of Quranism (talk • contribs)? Is it a coincidence that IP 194.61.223.68 and Quranism (talk • contribs) made the SAME edit to the SAME article, or is it more likely that IP 194.61.223.68 is a sockpuppet of Quranism (talk • contribs)? And, if this is so, then why isn't IP 194.61.223.68 blocked indefinitely like Quranism (talk • contribs) per WP:SOCKBLOCK and WP:EVASION? 2602:306:CC8F:65A0:71B1:20A6:C26A:BB15 (talk) 17:52, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Kala Kato

Dear 2602:306:CC8F:65A0:58F6:4F4E:4CE1:CE78 AGAIN

You claim that Yan Tatsine are Luddites. PROVIDE your proof. You claim that all of Kalla Kato have nothing to do with the Yan Tatsine, yet there are many leaders of Kala Kato who claim to be an off-shoot of Yan Tatsine, such as Mallam Badamasi: evidence: https://wwrn.org/articles/32352/

You claim that the Kala Kato are being "oppressed" by Sunnis, yet you provide no proof of this. So provide your PROOF. You also used a Pdf document of what a Sunni imam has to say about Kala Kato, which is just opinion with no evidence.

Not all Kala Kato share the same views. There are many groups within them. There is no single leader of Kala Kato, yet you like to claim they are. And there are some among them who claim to be an off-shoot of the Yan Tatsine, such as Mallam Badamasi. So stop playing games and wasting peoples time. You are a vandalist.

You also claim that this account is being used by someone you blocked. Yet again, you have no proof. Many shared IP addresses are used by many Wikipedia users.

So provide your proof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.61.223.68 (talk) 08:31, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

My revision: Kala Kato are NOT suppressed by Yan Tatsine (who reject Hadith) or Boko Haram

Too many things are included which have no reference, such as Kala Kato being "suppressed" by Boko Haram and Yan Tatsine, which there is no evidence for. Also, the pdf document written by the Sunni alim is also not relliable as it biased and is just OPINION with NO EVIDENCE. No evidence is given anywhere in the Pdf. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.61.223.68 (talk) 10:36, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The previous version of the article did not say that Kala Kato was suppressed by Yan Tatsine (who accept hadiths) or Boko Haram. It said that they were suppressed by their "religious rivals". The content was supported by the 5th reference which says that another religious group ". . . .  called on the state government to take a decisive step to dislodge the group. . . ." The content was also supported by the 6th reference which says that "The ulama observed that in case of any person or group of persons who propagates sac-religion as understood by early scholars should be suppressed."

As for the PDF document by the Sunni scholar not being "reliable" or "biased," I've already pointed out to you what WP:BIASED says:

". . . .reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject."

But contrary to what you say, he does provide numerous references from Kala Kato sources for what he says in the PDF document on pg. 1039.  By the way, this is an odd criticism for you to make considering your lengthy paragraph about the purported beliefs of Algerian Quranists on the Quranism article, which is based entirely on the unsourced ramblings of the Sunni scholar Abdelkarim Rakik. Not a big fan of consistency, eh? 2602:306:CC8F:65A0:6050:AA00:3E47:EA2C (talk) 19:58, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Article protected

Do not engage in revert warring in a content dispute. I have restored the material that was deleted by the (now blocked) 194.61.223.68, material that was cited to apparently reliable sources, and I have protected the article from being edited by anonymous IP addresses for 10 days. Come to an agreement on this page before proceeding. ~Anachronist (talk) 18:24, 19 November 2019 (UTC)