Talk:Kat Von D/Archive 1

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Jewish[edit]

Is she? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.93.246 (talk) 14:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently not. ;-) 64.142.90.34 (talk) 09:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Picture[edit]

someone should put up a picture of her...she's a nice looking woman

her real Name ?[edit]

are there more details about her name ? I mean, according to the article, her real name is Katherine von Drachenberg, while her father is named René Drachenberg. Where does the "von" come from ? Or is her real name just Katherine Drachenberg, without the "von" ? Also, it would be interesting to know, if she has some german ancestors, because Drachenberg is a german Name (translated into english the name means Dragon-Mountain) --87.177.223.142 22:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Her father is of german ancestry,but born in Argentina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.216.32.118 (talk) 09:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it helps to clear the about European "von", "van", "de" and sorts. They are not part of the name, but represent a suffix showing nobel ancestry. While some countries in Europe remain monarchies, most of them are republics today - and thus have no legal nobility any more. In Germany it's costumary to write the "von"/"zu" before the actual name in the passports, but if asked for the family name itself the prefixes are not mentioned. So, Katherine's name is very certainly Drachenberg, whether the "von" is an real prefix or part of the artistic persona, is her's to disclose. I hope, I could help unravel the mixup. --92.231.35.17 (talk) 00:35, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Kat Von D has given her name as Katherine von Drachenberg in two German interviews; (translation): Süddeutsche Zeitung: "Kat, your surname is von Drachenberg. That is a German name..." Kat von D: "Yes, there is a castle 'von Drachenberg' somewhere in South Germany, which is owned by some of my relatives. I've got a postcard, but I was never there." & Der Spiegel: "Kat von D is the abbreviation of Katherine von Drachenberg..." Kat von D: "Yes, my father's mother is German. Somewhere in South Germany there is a castle with this name..." http://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama/taetowiererin-kat-von-d-sie-geht-unter-die-haut-1.523622 & http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/0,1518,525758,00.html --IIIraute (talk) 12:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is no castle Drachenberg in Germany, especially not in Southern Germany. There is a villa called Drachenburg, that looks like a castle, in Northrhine-Westphalia, it was however built in the 1880ies for a man called Stephan Sarter, who bought the gentry title of Freiherr von Sarter after making a fortune in the stock exchange. The entertainment section of the respectable Frankfurter Rundschau reports, that she claims her 'ancesters' have been seated there... Stephan vn Sarter was neither noble, nor called 'von Drachenberg'. There is no known Drachenberg family in the German nobiliariesas of today, which are all accessible per internet. I believe it's fair to say, someone added this lore to make her and her supposed German ancestry seem more interesting, but none of it checks out. --92.194.118.176 (talk) 02:56, 17 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, these quotes have been in this article for quite some time now and the various editors who have worked on this have been aware of them. In neither quote does she say, "My father's name is von Drachenberg." All she says is that her father's mother is German. That's all. And aside from the fact that whether the castle genuinely is owned by relatives — a claim needs to be independently confirmed — her own bio on her own official site gives the family name as simply Drachenberg. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:00, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
...are you able to read? In the Spiegel when asked: "Kat von D is the abbreviation of Katherine von Drachenberg..."? she answered: "Yes, my father's mother is German. Somewhere in South Germany there is a castle with this name...". So when asked "is it von Drachenberg", she said "YES". However, the bio you are talking about was written "as told by one who knows her", in this case, Kore Flatmo. Apart from that, it is very common for German aristocratic families to not use their "von" in public, for example Richard Weizsäcker, Otto Solms, etc. --89.204.152.55 (talk) 15:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)--IIIraute (talk) 15:44, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strictly speaking, she does not answer the question. She doesn't reply with "Yes, that's my name." She affirms that her father's mother is German, but she does not confirm that Kat von D is an abbreviation of Katherine von Drachenberg. a_man_alone (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly so. You have two editors who feel you are misreading the quote. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The "Focus" newspaper writes that her real name is "von" Drachenberg http://www.focus.de/fotos/die-taetowiererin-kat-von-d-eigentlich-katherine-von-drachenberg_mid_982147.html, so does IMDb http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2507879/ --IIIraute (talk) 15:57, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Focus: "Die Tätowiererin Kat von D, eigentlich Katherine von Drachenberg..." and Mediagroup RP: "Der volle Name von Kat von D. deutet auf ihre deutschen Wurzeln: Sie heißt Katherine von Drachenberg..." http://www.rp-online.de/gesellschaft/leute/schrill-und-schoen-kat-von-drachenberg-1.2017518 --IIIraute (talk) 16:04, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
IMDB is not a reliable source, and I'm not sure of the status of foreign language sources either - especially when I don't speak the language in question, but I'm willing to listen to others better in the know over that one. a_man_alone (talk) 16:06, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Focus is a German weekly news magazine distributed throughout Germany. It is the third-largest weekly news magazine in Germany with a circulation of ca. 750,000. The Rheinische Post is a major German regional daily newspaper, published since 1946 with an average circulation of about 400,000. --IIIraute (talk) 16:13, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The German noble family, barons "von Drachenberg" did exist: http://books.google.de/books?id=SJpDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA229&dq=von+drachenberg++adel&hl=de&sa=X&ei=W4IhT_DxJpGvtAbhu-WnBw&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=von%20drachenberg%20%20adel&f=false; http://books.google.de/books?id=2EtBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA504&dq=von+drachenberg+baron&hl=de&sa=X&ei=OoMhT_vxDYHEsgbu89jwBw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=von%20drachenberg%20baron&f=false; http://books.google.de/books?id=rpFDAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA47&dq=von+drachenberg+baron&hl=de&sa=X&ei=OoMhT_vxDYHEsgbu89jwBw&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=von%20drachenberg%20baron&f=false --IIIraute (talk) 16:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

None of that means that it's her father's' name; old-world affectations are often dropped by immigrants in the new world. In her official bio, which she approved, she give her father's name without the "von." You are pushing a POV interpretation that multiple editors, including the one who added these non-English-language sources, do not agree with, and have blithely edit-warred to the point of WP:3RR to "get your way" on a non-consensus edit. I can see you're going to force this into a long and contentions RfC. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are several sources where Kat Von D says that it is her name; there are major newspapers that very clearly state that "von Drachenberg" is her name.... so why don't you bring a source in which she, or some newspaper, etc. does claim that it is not her name? --IIIraute (talk) 19:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We can't prove that someone didn't say something; we can only prove what they did say. What you're asking is like saying, "Prove the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist." All one can do is prove whether it does. Otherwise, we accept that it doesn't exist.
She says in her official bio, by her approval of it by placing it on her official site, that her father's name is simply Drachenberg. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
While you are searching, trying to prove YOUR POV, let me help ypu with some US sources: NYpost:"...Von D, whose real name is Katherine von Drachenberg..."http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/another_relationship_ends_for_jesse_ok6ZNisK1exZ89dq6NrGLN - or maybe, CBSnews: "...Von D (whose real name is Katherine Von Drachenberg)"http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_162-20083408-10391698.html - or the DailyMail: "...Kat, real name Katherine Von Drachenberg..."http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1303687/Jesse-James-enjoys-dinner-reality-star-Kat-Von-D.html etc, etc.--IIIraute (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We already say in the lead that she has given her name as Katherine von Drachenberg. She can call herself whatever she wants. That's her right. People change their names all the time. But that doesn't mean that that is her father's name, which she gives as Drachenberg. I'm sure you understand that a child and a parent don't have to have the same last name.--Tenebrae (talk) 20:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Stick to secondary sources - I have given lots of them. There are major US media-networks that claim that "Katherine von Drachenberg" is her name. What you are doing, is speculating and not quoting on sources.--IIIraute (talk) 20:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
She also says that the Drachenberg castle is owned by her relatives, doesn't she? And again, you are speculating whether or not the castle is genuinely owned by her relatives. Stop speculating and stick to the sources.--IIIraute (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Superlative claims require superlative sourcing. Claiming that your family owns a castle requires more than her word for it. No journalist would accept a claim like that on face value, and an encyclopedia should not have lower standards than journalism.
And we're not talking about the castle or what she gives as her name. You keep confusing the issue. We're talking only about the name of her father, which she herself gives only as Drachenberg.
You are actually the one speculating, drawing inferences from the name of a castle and other things. I, however, am not speculating when I say that she herself, in her official bio, gives her father's name as Drachenberg.
Would you please stop talking about castles that may or may not be her family's, or what name she has given for herself. We're only talking about the name of her father, which her official bio gives as Drachenberg. Can we please address this one issue only. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so I guess we better now change the article to Katherine von Drachenberg. Since, nowhere in her bio she claims that her name is Katherine Drachenberg, but there are dozens of official sources that state that her name is "von Drachenberg".--IIIraute (talk) 21:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Any objections? Where did that "Katherine Drachenberg" come from anyway? and why is owning a castle a superlative claim? my family also owns a castle. STOP your journalism and stick to secondary sources!--IIIraute (talk) 21:14, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Objection. a_man_alone (talk) 21:21, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That is your POV. Where are your sources?--IIIraute (talk) 21:28, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Where in her bio does it say that "Katherine Drachenberg" is her name?

Even though not relevant, all other wikipedia articles give her name as "Katherine von Drachenberg", so do countless secondary sources. Where does the claim of "Katherine Drachenberg" as her name come from?--IIIraute (talk) 21:55, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That should finally answer all doubts: the official US-government documents from the "United States Patent and Trademark Office" that prove that her real name of birth is "KATHERINE VON DRACHENBERG". http://tdr.uspto.gov/search.action?sn=85049892#; please see her application for the trademark of "Kat Von D": http://tdr.uspto.gov/jsp/DocumentViewPage.jsp?85049892/APP20100531102050/Application/4/27-May-2010/sn/false#p=1 (see pages 1, 3 & 4). So no more speculating - no more POV! The article can now be changed to "Katherine von Drachenberg".--IIIraute (talk) 10:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Genuine blue-blooded "von Drachenberg" stem from the Dragollovicz Edle von Drachenberg from what is Hungary today. There is no castle Drachenberg in Germany but a Drachenburg in the Rhineland which has never been owned or settled by a Drachenberg family. KvD is obviously not well educated in geography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.77.42.56 (talk) 10:24, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just for reference: United States public records (which can be viewed on familysearch.org) show Katherine B. Drachenberg (also Peck), b. 8 March 1982, resident in North Hollywood, California in 2007/ 8, as well as a marriage record for Katherine Bet Drachenberg and Oliver William Peck on 8 March 2004 in Nevada. Thus, evidently, her legal name does not incorporate the 'von'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.34.114 (talk) 00:49, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@92.24.34.114: Do you have a link to the page(s) there? --Tenebrae (talk) 03:13, 20 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't feel like getting into this discussion too much, but I'd just like to point out that her official name can plausibly be "Katherine von Drachenberg" whether that has or doesn't have any status in Germany or anywhere else... Even if the claim for nobility was a made up fraud, it could have been committed by someone generations ago, and it would still mean that person's descendants' official name in the Mexico or USA would be "von Drachenberg" if they just got that name officially accepted anywhere at any time... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:14BA:2BEA:C600:ED7D:3EDB:6C60:7F46 (talk) 12:32, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tattoos[edit]

How do people get a tat from Kat? :-D

Go to the high voltage website, you can sign up for a tattoo off camera, If you want to do it on-camera go to the website of the station that her show is on (TLC I think). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.72.100.2 (talk) 15:16, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

-Maria —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.153.29.65 (talk) 03:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Every episode gives instructions for applying to get a tattoo on the show. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.146.184.9 (talk) 13:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Divorce[edit]

I believe that she and Oliver Peck are now divorced. 209.74.0.248 03:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any source of this? I've looked around the net and found nothing saying they were divorced. It seems that they may be in the process of getting divorced, but I haven't found anything stating they are.

She discusses it somewhere during an interview with Tom Green currently on her myspace,

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=554683&MyToken=6b8ade61-db4d-4dae-a2ea-be6ff4d13d8d

and on Green's blog,

http://tomgreen.com/blog/

She says in the opening of her show "I'm single now..."

And, for what it's worth, her MySpace profile says singleSeaphoto 04:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

She straight up said she was single on one of the first (if not the first) episode of LA Ink. I heard it from her lips! --Naha|(talk) 04:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

She is no longer dating Orbi! They split, and now she is seeing Nikki Sixx and claims she has never been so in love. Check out her myspace picures for proof. 3/7/08 sarah s

MySpace is gossip, guys. She may be proclaiming to the world that he "owns her heart", but it's still gossip, whether there are pictures or not. We all know they're together, but until it meets Wiki's source standards, it should be left out. Sugarnova (talk) 13:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic identity[edit]

People have been inserting everything from "Mexican" and "Mexican-American" to "Argentinian-American" here. Barring some statement from her about what she would like to be identified, I think the following are in order from least to most true:

  1. Mexican
  2. Mexican-American
Agreed, despite her last name, however the hell it's pronounced anyway, she is certainly not german and is most definitely Mexican.124.176.222.19 (talk) 10:13, 22 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Two things; Mexican and German aren't mutually exclusive, there are Mexican people of German descent. And two, is Kat Von D Mexican? Her parents were missionaries from Argentina, so she may have just been born in Mexico while they were there, she may never have been a Mexican citizen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.75.121 (talk) 21:17, 29 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jesse James cheating[edit]

I'm not clear on how a statement from Kat Von D about James cheating on her could be removed on the basis of it being "tabloidery". This seems to be a misunderstanding about what a tabloid is. They are papers that release rumors without adequate sourcing. The statement from Kat Von D is a direct quote from her that was reported on in multiple reliable sources. It adds important context to their relationship and I feel it should be included. - Maximusveritas (talk) 19:24, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tabloidery extends to all sorts of unencyclopedic material, especially that catering to voyeuristic interest in the more salacious details of celebrity romance and sexuality. It is impossible to square the inclusion of one party's wholly unverified, thoroughly tawdry accusations against a former sexual partner with WP:BLP's strict requirements. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 02:58, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So does that mean we should remove all the discussion of alleged affairs from Bill Clinton's page? The references there are even more salacious and unverified ("Kathleen Willey alleged Clinton groped her in a hallway in 1993") without adding any context to the article. There's nothing in WP:BLP that would prohibit this in my opinion. In fact, it gives the following example: "Example: A politician is alleged to have had an affair. He or she denies it, but multiple major newspapers publish the allegations, and there is a public scandal. The allegation belongs in the biography, citing those sources. However, it should only state that the politician was alleged to have had the affair, not that he actually did." The only question in my mind is whether this is noteworthy enough and I feel that it is given that there are multiple reliable 3rd party sources reporting it and that it provides important context into the nature of their split. - Maximusveritas (talk) 04:01, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliography section[edit]

Kat has written 3 books so I believe someone should add a section devoted to her bibliography... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iammaal (talk • contribs) 21:57, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Makeup line Kat von D's makeup line has had quite an impact on the makeup community. Should someone ad a section about her line, where it's sold, and what she stands for? She doesn't simply support veganism, she has come up with many creative ways to produce products that are vegan friendly and cruelty free. I know she has successfully come out with an entire line of products that are pretty popular in Sephora and on her brand's website. I think those would be good things to discuss and include on her biography page. Estewart97 (talk) 17:05, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Disqualification from contest - additional[edit]

With regard to my reversion here I ran out of edit summary space, but to expand - the insertion edit summary was "...contained several strong opinions and no evidence..." - in this case evidence of the validity of her opinion is not required. Whether those opinions are true, and whether evidence can be found to support them is not in the remit of this section or article - the point is that they are her opinions and they are the reason she gave for the disqualification. Chaheel Riens (talk) 10:59, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The screenshots as given by the contest winner on the original article by the Kansas City Star do not state or even clearly infer disqualification. Kat Von D states in this conversation that the makeup artist has not been deselected as the winner of the contest. This makes the claim in the news sources of "disqualification" as inaccurate/unsourced/potentially-libellous until actual proof of this disqualification is found. FleurFox (talk) 22:15, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed that section since FleurFox is correct that the contestant's own screengrabs do not support the contention that she was disqualified or de-selected — she only claimed she was despite evidence to the contrary. And since this issue was covered only in a single local newspaper, it's by definition a minor incident. Minor incidents are non-notable. Its inclusion has been the work of anon IPs who appear to be trying to use Wikipedia to whip up controversy over an incident not given significant exposure elsewhere. WP:INDISCRIMINATE and Wikipedia is not a soapbox. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:24, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And I've restored the content. The sources are reliable. I am not an "anon IP." I just want the facts included, as cited by reliable sources. Bk33725681 (talk)

For the record, here is the content in question:

In July 2017, makeup artist Gypsy Freeman said that after she had won a beauty contest run by Kat Von D Beauty, the status of her victory has become a matter of contention because Freeman had praised Donald Trump on her Instagram page. Von D told her, "I just need you to know that I personally have a hard time with inviting anyone who would support such an anti-feminist, anti-homosexual/LGBT, anti-immigrant, and anti-climate change fascist such as Trump." However, the original rules of the contest had stated that any legal U.S. resident 18 or older was eligible to win. Freeman said the photographer who shot her entry, Jenn Bischof, was allowed to attend the contest's associated launch party in her place. Media reports did not say whether or not Freeman had received the $500 gift certificate to Sephora that had been listed as part of the original prize.[1] In these messages to Freeman, Kat Von D says she has "drawn a personal line in the sand between myself and anyone who supports that man."[2]

In the screenshots of the conversation provided to the Kansas City Star, Kat Von D clearly states[1][3] :

I am not deselecting you - like I said I personally chose your entry because of your talent - and I could would never take that away. I just wanted to be honest with you about where I stand.

— Kat Von D, Instagram Screenshot

Bk33725681 (talk) 04:03, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There was no consensus in favor of the reinsertion of this contentious edit. Yet the editor above, using slow-motion edit-warring, unilaterally reinserted the contentious content despite there being no consensus for it.
Wikipedia operates on consensus. There is not consensus for this contentious material. At this state, the proper thing to do is for you to call for an WP:RfC and not continue to edit-war. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:26, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm a little confused because even Bk33725681 concedes that Von D did not disqualify or de-select the winner: "I am not deselecting you - like I said I personally chose your entry because of your talent - and I could would never take that away." So where is the controversy? --Tenebrae (talk) 18:29, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b Riedel, Matt (July 21, 2017). "Wichitan won national contest, was disqualified for supporting Trump, she says". The Kansas City Star. Kansas. Archived from the original on July 23, 2017. Retrieved July 23, 2017. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  2. ^ "Kat Von D contest winner disqualified for supporting Trump". Retrieved 2017-07-26.
  3. ^ "A screenshot of messages exchanged between Gypsy Freeman and Kat Von D. (6/9)". Kansas City Star. July 21, 2017. Archived from the original on July 25, 2017. Retrieved July 25, 2017. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)


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Antivaxxing?[edit]

What's with the new pronouncements that she's an anti-vaxxer? Can we get something here to back that up, with sources? Andy Dingley (talk) 08:49, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In the meantime we have a primary source and some secondary sources.[1][2][3] There are probably correct ways to write about this in a biography, which not many have managed so far. -- zzuuzz (talk) 09:11, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • My main question would be about her anti-vaccination pronouncements and stance. She's said that she's not going to vaccinate her child. Does she extend this to a generally anti-vaxx position? Does she advocate that other people shouldn't vaccinate either? Claim that vaccines are made from unicorns? Rat poison? Made by an international kabbalistic conspiracy?
I'm happy to include the primary source (it's not in isolation without secondary sources, and it's referring specifically to her own comments). Andy Dingley (talk) 09:21, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While I haven't seen any indications that she's actively advocating anything, the term does seem to be used for people who are against vaccination for their own, which would seem to include her. And you could say there is some weight in a public person making such a declaration. However just using the term 'anti-vaxxer' can't seem to be appropriate. Some context is required. That context does not appear to be with her, but with the wider reaction. -- zzuuzz (talk) 09:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Kelly-Leigh Cooper (15 June 2018). "Kat Von D: The make-up mogul who has reignited 'anti-vax' row". BBC News Online.
So you can interpret this in one of two ways, back-tracking on their anti-vax stance because they don't like the public reaction to it; or else a clarification that they "are NOT anti-vaxxers.", they're just against vaccinating their own kids. Which seems an even stranger position to hold. Anti-vaxxing (for everyone) might be a medically doubtful view, but it's logically consistent. Claiming that vaccines "can work wonders." (they can't, they work by repeatable science, not random miracle) but that you're against giving the children closest to you their benefit - that just doesn't make any sense. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:18, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • We've now lost the primary source for this (not an improvement) but we've now gained a statement that veganism itself is anti-vaxx, not just Kat Von D. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:57, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kat at work[edit]

Just a minor thing, but I read "Von D at work in 2007" with work as a verb, not a noun - ie she's working, not at a place of work. Chaheel Riens (talk) 12:35, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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