Talk:Keith White (yachtsman)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sourcing and focus[edit]

There are a number of uses of White's own website as sources. I have considered these with care, and argue that WP:SELFPUB and WP:PRIMARY apply. They are used to support the checking of simple facts not likely to be susceptible to challenge, and are not used, indeed can not be used, to verify any notability.

As White's 2015/2016 solo circumnavigation progresses it is clear that White himself, via his shore team, is the sole source of coverage of the voyage (whoever carries the story), and that the voyage is, of course, part of his biography. We need to be clear that the voyage itself should not become the focus of the article, though. Nonetheless, the voyage has/will have significant events which are very much part of his biography. Fiddle Faddle 09:07, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More information on the boat[edit]

The article would benefit from greater exposition on the type of boat, size, design, designer, equipment, etc. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:39, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The issue with adding it was sourcing, pure and simple. When I created it I stuck to simple things that I could source. It would be very interesting to know, for example, what modifications the Marathon has for a solo passage, but I can find no sources for the information, and nothing is obvious when seeing the boat in the flesh. It may be that the information will be forthcoming on this vessel on completion of the trip. Fiddle Faddle 00:49, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I was not criticizing. Merely suggesting an area that might be improved, if and when sources become available. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:56, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I never thought you were criticising. . I met Keith very briefly in Dartmouth and went aboard to show him where to moor and to help him come alongside and moor up in a pretty unfavourable wind somewhere in the middle of about force 7. Not an easy task for a solo yachtsman to do anyway in that breeze. Marathon is a substantial yacht, heavier than others of her marque. She has very wide side decks, but not a huge amount to hold on to when performing sail handling tasks up by and before the mast. She has the ubiquitous lazyjacks to capture the main, and solid, cable furled roller reefing headsail gear, but nothing about her looks modified for the one armed sailor.
The article happened because he wasn't on Wikipedia. Fiddle Faddle 01:01, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the response. The logistics of sail handling (singled-handed singled-handed) are particularly daunting and intriguing. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 01:38, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Article name[edit]

In line with Yoninah's suggestion above I think Keith White (yachtsman) would be a better name, as "disabled" is unnecessary disambiguation. Even if there were another yachtsman called Keith White, I'm not sure his disability would be the most appropriate way to disambiguate. Regards — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:57, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please feel free to change the name. I simply point out that White self identifies as, variously, "disabled yachtsman" and "disabled sailor" as may be seen on his own web sites, twitter, facebook, etc. The intent is not to emphasise his status so much as to seek to uphold the way he represents himself. I have no strong feelings either way. I just created it with what I felt was likely to be the most appropriate title. Fiddle Faddle 12:27, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Some questions following GOCE copy-edit of December 12, 2015[edit]

I have just finished copy-editing Keith White (yachtsman). I have a few questions and concerns, which I will post here:

1) You'll see in this edit [1] that I changed "The voyage is for charity" to an infinitive phrase, "in part to raise funds for charity". I used the phrase "in part" because I just assumed that the voyage was not only made to raise money for charity, but also just because that's what White wanted to do, but if you prefer, I can remove "in part". (Besides, when a reader sees "in part", he might wonder what the other reason was.) If the purpose of the voyage really was mainly to raise funds for charity, then we've got to take out "in part".

2) The section Keith White (yachtsman)#Solo global circumnavigation attempt starts:

  • In 2015 White prepared for his charity solo circumnavigation of the world by entering his yacht, the Marathon, a one-off Feeling 1350 yacht, built for the 1991 BOC Challenge and veteran of two prior circumnavigations, in the Round the Island Race, with crew.

I think before you say, "...prepared for his charity solo circumnavigation of the world", you need to explain that he planned a solo circumnavigation of the world to raise money/funds for charity (even though this is mentioned in the lead).

3) You'll see in this edit [2] that I changed "before preparing to set out to cross..." to "before setting out to cross". It seems to me that the pause in Dartmouth was in order to prepare, and that "before preparing to set out to cross" is a bit wordy. However, now the setting out to cross the start/finish line is mentioned before the leaving of Dartmouth. Is there really some intermediate step that must be mentioned here, or would it be all right to combine the last sentence about leaving Dartmouth on October 25 with the setting-out sentence?

4) The last sentence, which I did revise, is now:

  • Gerry Hughes, a profoundly deaf Scottish teacher, sailed single-handed round the world "past all five capes".

Is there any objection to changing "single-handed" to the adverbial form "single-handedly"? I would have done it, but thought I'd better check to be sure this is not some kind of sailing jargon. Also, considering that the article is about a disabled sailor who has only one arm, it might be a little ambiguous to say that Hughes "sailed single-handed".

5) Finally, the lead ends by saying that Keith White "has achieved some significant firsts". However, it is not clear from the article what those firsts are. If this is to stay in the lead, it should be made clear what some of those firsts are. Otherwise, this should be removed from the lead. Maybe those "firsts" are mentioned in the article, but the word "first" should be used: "White was the first... to...", or "..., making White the first... to...". Corinne (talk) 03:25, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Corinne: Thank you. I'm gratified that you needed to make or suggest only small changes. I think I and you together have now handled them. Please ping me if I have missed anything. Your question about 'handedly' vs 'handed' does come down to the vernacular of the sport. Yachties always seem to talk about 'single handed' even when it might be better deployed as an adverb.
Please have a look at the subtle changes I have made. I think they can be improved upon.
Do you have an opinion on whether this might be appropriate for GA submission? Fiddle Faddle 10:11, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Date of birth[edit]

I have reverted the suggested date of birth of 1978. In 2015 White is 66, I simply cannot find any confirmation anywhere of that. It is no good my just knowing it, we need a reference for it. Fiddle Faddle 10:37, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Timtrent: do you have the source which says he is 66? We can then use {{Age as of date}}. GiantSnowman 15:38, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman: I regret not. When I met him he told me. That is not a lot of use. Fiddle Faddle 16:34, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Timtrent: - there is this, unsure if it is a RS? GiantSnowman 16:41, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman: Add it to this and I think it is solved. I haven't seen the template you mention deployed before. Would you like to add it? Each of those is a fairy robust UK local paper. National it isn't, but I think it will do the job based on the concept that it is a fact unlikely to be challenged. What think you? Fiddle Faddle 16:45, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The one I found is currently ref 13. IT may have moved by now!! Fiddle Faddle 16:48, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
{{Age as of date|62|2008|06|03}} puts him at 77–78 which differs from my recollection, but my recollection could be faulty. Fiddle Faddle 16:50, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It also differs for the item you found, GiantSnowman. I suppose one could say that his age is reported variously as A and B, using each to cite the relevant information? Not sure how to proceed here. Thoughts please? Fiddle Faddle 16:58, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Timtrent: given the discrepancy I'd rather have neither tbh. GiantSnowman 17:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I wish his own site, primary or not, would state his birthdate, but I think it may well wait until his hoped for successful return in some 10 more months. Fiddle Faddle 17:08, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If we don't know and there is a conflict, report one and drop the other in a note. Source both. Just a suggestion. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 02:34, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits[edit]

GiantSnowman Regarding your recent edits to Keith White (yachtsman) [3], I would like to know why you reverted my edits adding no-break spaces between words and numbers. If you'll look in the revision history just before Timtrent's edits, you'll see that I had just completed a copy-edit in response to a request at WP:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests. The no-break space is to ensure that a one- or two-digit number does not end up appearing all by itself either at the end of a line or at the beginning of a line when it logically belongs with an accompanying word. Corinne (talk) 14:54, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Corinne: I see no reason to have a no-break space. GiantSnowman 15:39, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
GiantSnowman Well, I just gave you a reason. Also see Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Controlling line breaks and Wikipedia:Line-break handling#Preventing and controlling word wraps. Corinne (talk) 00:29, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've restored the non-breaking spaces, they are doing no harm here. Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 08:43, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Confirming that I have an intellectual curiosity, not a conflict of interest[edit]

It strikes me that people may wonder whether I have a conflict of interest in my creation of this article. It is a reasonable thing to consider, the more so since I have been following Keith White's progress and making comments on his web site.

I have met White once, briefly, in Dartmouth, where I assisted him professionally to find a mooring, boarding the Marathon at his invitation to offer him manpower as well as guidance. I was offered a cup of tea but had no time to accept his kind offer. I do not know him, or, rather, did not before that meeting, and now only know as much as I have been able to research. I am, however, a lifelong sailor of boats. White interested me, so I looked him up. Lo and behold, he was not here. He is now.

I can say without hesitation that he impressed me sufficiently to make this article a pleasure to start. Fiddle Faddle 19:51, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On 31 August 2016, wishing to add a further item or items to the article, I determined that I had a conflict of interest from that point on, deployed {{Connected contributor}} at the head of this page with my rationale, and withdrew from active edits to this article. Fiddle Faddle 11:24, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requested edit[edit]

I have now, today, disqualified myself from editing this article further since a conflict of interest has developed since I created it and guided it through a DYK. I have found the following mainstream press material to be added in any manner that the editor answering this request sees fit as a citation for relevant facts in the article, and for any relevant expansion. An example is that White's age is stated explicitly to be 68 (on this date)

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/aug/31/i-didnt-know-whether-i-could-sail-with-one-hand

The article was published today Fiddle Faddle 20:27, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please go ahead and make the proposed edits. Based on what you have written here and above, I do not consider this comes close to a conflict of interest by Wikipedia's definition. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's kind of you to make that interpretation. Others may take a different view, however, so I would prefer an uninvolved editor took up the baton. Fiddle Faddle 22:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the queue you'll realise that such requests do not get attended to promptly. If you really doubt my interpretation you could ask at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. I really think you are being over-cautious (unless there is something else you haven't mentioned!) Cheers — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:59, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I added the Guardian article to the infobox. Unfortunately, as White's exact birthday is not given, his estimated age will have a margin of error of one year. Martin is quite right: the edit request queue is woefully backlogged, and I fear I am the only editor actively monitoring it! Altamel (talk) 04:51, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Factual correction please[edit]

Keith has just called me to ask that I correct the details of the motor accident that caused his disability. He states that it was a 14 car pile up on the M1 in February 1991, near Milton Keynes, southbound, that closed the motorway for five hours. He was a passenger.

While it does not alter the meat of the article Keith hopes that the small factual inaccuracy might be corrected

Try as I might I cannot find a reference for this. I hope this request will appeal to an editor who enjoys a bit of detective work. Fiddle Faddle 13:16, 18 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Four months have passed since this edit request, and I'm afraid I've reached the same conclusion as you. It's going to be very difficult to find a citation with the exact details you mentioned. However, as I have found no citations that mention a motorcycle road accident, save for websites clearly copying Wikipedia, I have removed that word from the lede. If you do find any more useful citations, please let me know and I'll update the article as soon as possible. Altamel (talk) 16:41, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Keith White (yachtsman). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:25, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Death[edit]

Keith White died on 17 January 2019, in the morning. There is no reliable source confirmation for this yet, simply personal confirmation by those close to him. Thus I am unwilling to edit the article to provide his date of death. Fiddle Faddle 17:38, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is an obituary, on the Dart Sailability web site, but that is a primary source. I know because I wrote it. Fiddle Faddle 20:34, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not the best reference, but I have found a reference in a reliable source. It does, however, quote me as the source, so it is a bit circular. When a better reference arrives this should be added. Fiddle Faddle 22:24, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Age[edit]

The age question: ref 1 has him at 68 in August 2016; therefore born '47/'48: ref 2 has him at 70 in January 2019 (DoD); therefore born '48/'49. Not certain how reliable ref 2 may be but I shouldn't think it's any worse than most UK local papers... Suggest DoB be amended to '48/'49 using ref 2 which also applies, as it already does (not quite accurately!), to the DoD and age shown as 70. Any views? It seems 1948 is likely to be actual DoB but that may be 'synth'. If we reach a decision this discussion could be copied to the talk page and maybe hidden advice in the i/bx. Eagleash (talk) 11:15, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Eagleash, I wish my personal knowledge of and friendship with the late Mr White could help here. He seemed not quite to wish his accurate age to be known, though was content to be 'old enough'.
I wrote an obit for him at https://www.dartsailability.org/post/keith-white-died-on-thursday-17th-january-2019-suddenly-at-home and also a report on the 2017 Round the Island race at https://www.dartsailability.org/post/round-the-island-race-2017
None of that is a great deal of help, I'm afraid. I agree with your copying this discussion to the article talk page. Fiddle Faddle 11:21, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the COI(ish) issue. If you agree with my assessment of the sources, (?) I will make the changes a bit later today, probably. Eagleash (talk) 11:41, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Eagleash, I agree with your assessment of the sources. I have just uploaded to Commons |Keith White aboard his vessel the Marathon in the Solent 1 July 2017 which is the sole picture I have of Keith to which I own the copyright Fiddle Faddle 11:47, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Image included. Disc copied. Eagleash (talk) 12:10, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Keith_White_(yachtsman)&oldid=1212470614"