Talk:Khamzat Chimaev

"Khamzat Chimaev (fighter)" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Khamzat Chimaev (fighter). The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 21#Khamzat Chimaev (fighter) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Cassiopeia^(talk) 10:36, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Chechen ethnicity

He is Chechen. Simple as that. Just because he was born in Russia doesn't mean he identifies as Russian. See Uighurs born in China. Simple as that. Literally simple. Multiple articles are cited that refer to him as Khabig. Stop deleting it as one of his nicknames. Stop changing it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by KhanzotChinev (talk • contribs) 11:23, September 23, 2020 (UTC)

KhanzotChinev Good day. We dont include the ethnicity in the WP:LEAD section but in the bodytext such as in the Background section. You are welcome to add it as long as you have source (need inline citatin) to support your edit. Chechnya is not a country and it is part of Russia. To stated he is Russian-born Swedish mixed martial artist is appropriate in the LEAD section and the info is supported by sources in the bodytext. The nick name of Chimaev is as per Sherdog.com just like all MMA fighter in Wikipedia which the source is indicated at the bottom of the infobox section. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia^(talk) 09:41, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Could you point me to the rule that says that nationality must be given and not ethnicity? Because I see several examples of Tibetan, Chechen and Uighur figures who are simply described by their ethnicity alone. KhanzotChinev (talk) 16:34, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for asking, but how many of them are mixed martial artists? PabloLikesToWrestle (talk) 20:47, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Khabig nickname

Multiple articles refer to him as Khabig. See cited article on page in addition to the following: https://www.thefocus.news/combat-sports/khamzat-chimaev-manager/ I could cite many more examples. Please think rationally before deleting wantonly. KhanzotChinev (talk) 16:27, 29 November 2020 (UTC) Also referenced here by the official UFC on BT Sport twitter https://twitter.com/btsportufc/status/1287798828951896065 KhanzotChinev (talk) 16:42, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

The first page you cite explicitly states "...is taking the boxing world by storm..." you must be kidding if you think that's a reliable source, the guy who wrote that article doesn't even know the sport he's talking about. Can you explain to me why https://www.thefocus.news/author/tomcostello/ that guy holds any power for you to assume Chimaev will ever be introduced as Khabig? Will Bruce Buffer call him Khabig because Tom Costello from The Focus says so?

A Twitter page doesn't have any credibility either, the guy who wrote it is just an employee in charge of posting videos of sports, not someone who holds any credibility in the world of MMA. PabloLikesToWrestle (talk) 20:43, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh really? Says who? Besides, in my book if people are calling someone something other than his name, than that's a nickname. Maybe that's hard for you to understand? KhanzotChinev (talk) 10:04, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Yet another source, from his native country no less. https://www.rt.com/sport/495295-khamzat-chimaev-khabib-comparisons/ KhanzotChinev (talk) 10:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Vandalism/unwarranted deletions

Please refrain from deleting other users' contributions without discussing the reasoning for doing so. KhanzotChinev (talk) 15:58, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Deleted images Doncomedia666 (talk) 16:14, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• KhamzatChimaev.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:38, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2021

his latest fight in notes should say how it was at welterweight 1.136.109.100 (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 05:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2021

I would appriciate it if you could change the word «russian born» with «Chechen born». Because he is born in Chechnya, that is a semi autonomous de facto independent republic, with its own president etc. 2001:4645:AE6:0:540:89EF:A02C:10BA (talk) 09:55, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. SSSB (talk) 10:32, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Moved to Sweden in 2013 when he was 28 years old?

Hi the article says Khamzat moved to Sweden when he was 28 years old, I assume it is supposed to say 18 based on when he was born. 66.69.184.125 (talk) 13:37, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done by another user at some point. SSSB (talk) 10:33, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 November 2021

Khamzat Chimaev is not a Swedish fighter. He is Russian. Change the fact mistake. 49.255.48.130 (talk) 06:12, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 07:40, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Khamzat Chimaev.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:38, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Association with Kadyrov

Explaining why Chimaev has been criticized for associating with Kadyrov, the source says: "Kadyrov, who has ruled Chechnya like his personal fiefdom since rising to power in 2007, is routinely accused of orchestrating human rights abuses including assassinations, abductions, torture, extrajudicial killings, and purges targeting the local LGBTQ+ community."

The current wording "repressive rule" is not a fair representation of the source.--Killashaw (talk) 18:00, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Isn't repressive a fair summary of that? Also, I think the association is worthy of inclusion in the article. Being linked to a fellow who murders and tortures people is likely to be a source of legitimate criticism. Solipsism 101 (talk) 22:47, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

I'd use "repressive rule" to describe governements that use force to restrict freedom of speach, freedom of religion, freedom of the press etc. This needs stronger words.--Killashaw (talk) 23:10, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Swedish?

By what definition is he Swedish? He is a citizen of Russia, not Sweden. He has a residence permit in Sweden but no citizenship. The reference for 'Swedish' in the preamble (https://www.mmafighting.com/2020/10/10/21510104/khamzat-chimaev-claims-stephen-thompson-chris-weidman-declined-fight-ufc) even calls him 'Russian' and says nothing about Sweden. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Weiman1 (talk • contribs) 11:55, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Well we do not base nationality description on what mmafighting.com says, you can just as easily pull up an article calling him a Swedish MMA fighter. He fights out of Sweden has lived there for almost 10 years, I think that qualifies as pretty ″Swedish″. TylerBurden (talk) 13:35, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Who is "we" and how do you define nationality then? Weiman1 (talk) 18:38, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

We as in you and me, Wikipedia editors, why should that one specific website decide his nationality description on this article? TylerBurden (talk) 11:00, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Chechen-born or Russian-born?

Dart molt1 When Khamzat Chimaev was born, Chechen republic of Ichkeria had declared independence from Russia(previously Soviet Union), therefore its better and correct to put Chechen-born instead of Russian-born because Chechnya was an independent republic and not part of Russia when he was born. --Lemabeta (talk) 10:59, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

@Lemabeta The Chechen Republic of Ichkeria was not a state, but a terrorist entity on the territory of Russia. Therefore, it is correct to write Russian-born Dart molt1 (talk) 11:04, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

@Lemabeta stop editing the article, and support the regime of terrorism in Chechnya in those years. It was not a state, if people are now born in the DPR, will we write DPR-born or Ukrainian-born? Dart molt1 (talk) 13:11, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

In order to prevent either of you from getting in trouble over edit warring, you both should finish this discussion and gain consensus before making more edits. I personally think Russian makes more sense as Chechnya aside from the controversial at best independence attempt is part of Russia. TylerBurden (talk) 14:06, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dart molt1 Russia committed genocide in the first and the 2nd war of Chechnya. Hundreds of thousand of people innocent civilians were killed. We all know who the real terrorist regime is between those two but i understand your point. thats why i wrote de facto Chechen Republic of Ichkeria as well as De jure Russia. Lemabeta (talk) 14:18, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

@Lemabeta it wasn't genocide, these were ethnic cleansing by Chechens of other nations during the Chechen wars Dart molt1 (talk) 16:27, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

@Dart molt1 Ichikeria was a de-facto independent state Azertyuioooop (talk) 12:18, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Birthplace

Khamzat Chimaev was born in Beno-Yurt, Chechen Republic of Ichkeria (nowadays Chechnya, Russia). Chechnya (then Chechen Republic of Ichkeria) was an independent nation from January 1994 to May 2000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:7F3:4980:996B:741B:3BD:EF3D:4896 (talk) 20:20, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2022

As of 12/04/2021, Khamzat Chimaev is #3 in the UFC Welterweight Rankings 2001:8003:D920:A301:E86D:CEDA:1B5A:5CB0 (talk) 08:27, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:18, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Towel gate

Can we add a title "Controversy" to detail the UFC 267 attempt to use the Daniel Cormier towel trick at the weigh-in. He missed weight and then came back to the scales after an hour. He held on to the towel and had lost 5 pounds weighing 166! Then he was asked to raise his arms up and weighed 171.. 2A04:4A43:471F:E403:0:0:8D8:AAD (talk) 19:28, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Sure, if you can bring the reliable sources to back it up. TylerBurden (talk) 04:26, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Khamzat is a Russian

Khamzat was born in russia bro, he’s not a swede. 24.101.177.18 (talk) 11:56, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

He moved to Sweden and fights out of there, it's also how the reference refers to him. TylerBurden (talk) 01:54, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 September 2022

Add "welterweight bout" to Khamzat's fight with Li Jingliang. Dlb585 (talk) 12:59, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done TylerBurden (talk) 17:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Ref 103 links to a virus.

Please remove. 188.150.21.126 (talk) 19:36, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Nationality

He is not swedish. He has a residence permit in Sweden. That doesn’t make him swedish. 188.151.194.67 (talk) 21:01, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Has been discused several times above. TylerBurden (talk) 16:37, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Russian and Chechen are different nationalities

Khamzat isn't considered Russian in Russia. In the Russian language, there's a distinction between nationality and citizenship, and a distinct word for indigenous people's of Russia that are not ethnic and cultural Russians. He's a 𝘳𝘰𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘺𝘢𝘯𝘪𝘯 (Russian citizen) but not a 𝘳𝘶𝘴𝘴𝘬𝘪 (ethnic and cultural Russian). It is more appropriate to say he's a Chechen-born fighter with Russian citizenship as the term "Russian" doesn't make that distinction. Azertyuioooop (talk) 12:29, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Even the Russian article states that he is a Chechen from the Republic of Chechnya (it's a widespread diaspora), instead of a Russian. Azertyuioooop (talk) 12:38, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Additionally, it is considered very inappropriate for a Chechen, or any other member of any non-Russian indigenous people of Russia, to be called Russian. Azertyuioooop (talk) 13:16, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Azertyuioooop Chechen is not a country but part of Russia and just like more than 10 other region of Russia they have slightly different political arrangement from the rest of Russia, but the are not an independent nation. All the countries in the world and even the Russia government do not recognize Chechen or Dagestan a independent nation. how the . He was born in Chechnya and therefore he was born Russian (not ethnicity but as citizen).Many part of the world in certain regions claim independent due to conflict or disagreements (example Kosovo - even US, Australia and majority of European countries recognized Kosovo as an independent countries but UN needs 2/3 recognition of the courtiers of the world which we dont have and Russia and China veto the recognition (The five countries with veto power within the United Nations include China, Russia, France, The United Kingdom, and the United States. These countries have the ability to veto a "substantive" resolution) - So Kosova official is not an independent country) Wikipedia is not based on what your, my or Chimaev's opinions/think(s) but based on verifiability from independent, reliable sources. Therefor Chimaev is considered a Russian with ethnicity of Cheyne. Cassiopeia talk 22:20, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia This is not a matter of whether Chechnya is independent or not, I've never brought that question up. The word "nationality" is defined by the Oxford Dictionary as one's status of belonging to a particular nation and the Russian constitution recognizes all of its indigenous peoples as separate nations (within the very first sentence of the constitution). Azertyuioooop (talk) 22:38, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Azertyuioooop but not by the world as explained above. Cassiopeia talk 23:20, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia No, you only said that Chechnya wasn't an independent state. Azertyuioooop (talk) 23:29, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia By the way, your initial comment is wrong in so many ways... but let's stay focus on the main topic. Azertyuioooop (talk) 23:31, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Azertyuioooop I said, it is not an independent nation which does not recognized by the world but is part of Russia which it is not my opinion by by the world authority. For such the the ppl who born there is considered Russian citizen. Btw, ethnicty/bloodline/heritage can not be stated in the lead (intro) section as per Wikipedia guidelines. Cassiopeia talk 23:45, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia Alright, I'm gonna answer everything you said point by point, even though most of it is completely unrelated to the initial remark.

"Chechnya is not a country but part of Russia"

Chechnya being part of Russia doesn't prevent it from being considered a 𝘤𝘰𝘶𝘯𝘵𝘳𝘺. Let's take a look at the definition of the word according to Oxford Languages : "a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory."

Chechnya has its own government (that is : ministers and a president), effectively recognized as a "government" by the Russian jurisdiction. This definition doesn't differentiate between a main government and a subordinate government.

"Kosovo officially is not an independent country."

But it's still a country, so you're basically admitting you can be considered a country without being recognized as independent. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"They have slightly different political arrangements from the rest of Russia"

Wrong, it is not "slightly" different, it's 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗽𝗹𝗲𝘁𝗲𝗹𝘆 different. Kadyrov has all the power and not even the constitution of the Russian Federation is respected in Chechnya, even though it legally should.

"Wikipedia is not based on your, my or Chimaev's opinions."

So what legitimacy does the UN's opinion have over Oxford? I think you're misunderstanding something about linguistics. Dictionaries do not actually define words from a language, the speakers of said language are the ones who do. The meaning of a word is the one that most people who use it think it is (so it's a convention, not decided by each singular individual). In other words, dictionaries only 𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘤𝘳𝘪𝘣𝘦 the language, they do not police it, nor does the UN. In the same way, the UN definition of "country" is simply a description of the way 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 (the United Nations) use this word as part of their own diplomatic policies. It's not meant to overrule any other definition. So we should rely on dictionaries such as Oxford because they have strict criteria and a scientific methodology, whereas the UN definition purely relies on the goodwill of those who have a say on the matter (the veto powers).

Your whole point seems to be that "Russian-born" is more appropriate just because Chechnya is not independent, although Chechnya not being independent doesn't change the fact that his nationality is Chechen. Besides, Chechnya was a 𝘥𝘦 𝘧𝘢𝘤𝘵𝘰 independent state when he was born.

"Ethnicity, bloodline and heritage cannot be stated in the lead (intro) section"

Thanks because I didn't know this, but we're still talking about nationality, which is a social construct.

"The people who were born there are Russian citizens."

But the term "Russian-born" suggests both a Russian citizenship 𝗮𝗻𝗱 a Russian nationality, because the English language doesn't have the distinction between 𝘳𝘶𝘴𝘴𝘬𝘪 and 𝘳𝘰𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘺𝘢𝘯𝘪𝘯.

Calling someone who belongs to any indigenous peoples of Russia a "Russian" in a language that doesn't have this distinction is considered offensive for that very same reason. It's an insult to our identity because we have literally nothing in common with Russians. So for the sake of impartiality, we can at least replace "Russian-born" with "Chechen-born [...] of Russian citizenship," or, at the 𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘆 least, "from the Russian republic of Chechnya," it's not much to ask. English Wikipedia is the only one doing that mistake among all of those I've checked. Azertyuioooop (talk) 01:55, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Azertyuioooop I have explained and many languages has certain words or expression which other languages do not have and same the other around. If a subectt born in US and their heritage/bloodline/ethnicity is Chinese, the are officially American and their nationality is also American, same as such if their ethnicity is Russian, they are still an American. The point is, this is English Wikipedia and English Wikipedia has it own guidelines and we just state their nationality in the lead section. You can add more info, as long as it is supported by independent, reliable sources in the body text section such as background which the info has already indicated he was born in Chechen, Russia. Cassiopeia talk 03:16, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia

1) Someone with Chinese parents born in the United States will most likely have dual citizenship ;

2) We're still talking about nationality, again... not bloodline ;

3) His nationality is Chechen. Azertyuioooop (talk) 08:25, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Azertyuioooop You assumed someone with Chinese parents born in US mostlike have dual citizenship and that is your opinion which Wikipedia do not used such claim but only by Wikipedia guidelines of verifiability. Again, Chechnya is NOT a country. Again, and pls remember, This is English Wikipedia and has it own guideliens, you can set up your own blog or website and you can write whatever you want but not in Wikimedia as it has it own guidelines. I have already explained and have nothing to add further nor discuss further. Cassiopeia talk 08:57, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia It's not an opinion, someone whose parents immigrated from China will almost certainly have dual citizenship unless they don't want it. Oxford is a verifiable and reliable source, according to which Chechnya IS a country, just like Kosovo. Also the fact that this is English Wikipedia doesn't change the fact that Khamzat's nationality is Chechen, and I don't think the guidelines here are much different from the others, but it's still the only one that does the mistake (well not anymore since someone removed it while we were talking, so this discussion has no more reason to be). Azertyuioooop (talk) 09:14, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Lead

@Cassiopeia Can I ask why you object to adding a second paragraph to the lead? The article is easily big enough to include more information in the lead, as it can be up to 4 paragraphs per WP:LEAD. It is fact that he was born in the Chechen Republic of Russia and emigrated to Sweden as a teenager, and there is no issue from a manual of style standpoint to include that context in the lead. TylerBurden (talk) 14:18, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Not to mention adding more detailed information about his UFC career, including breaking records which is higly notable. TylerBurden (talk) 14:19, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

TylerBurden Info of him on general info should be in the personal or background section which has already mentioned in the body text and for undefeated record for mma fighter is not an significant achievement especially in such as early career. You can add the fastest three fight winning streak in UFC history (66 days) in the body text for it is not an achievement but you need to provide independent, reliable source. His achievement of three-time Swedish National champion has already mentioned in the lead section. Lead is only summary of the most important, significant info and no more. Cassiopeia talk 09:45, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

How is his personal background not one of the most important parts of the article? The lead is meant to be a summary. TylerBurden (talk) 12:57, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Lead means important part of the subject and not the summary of everything. Cassiopeia talk 08:59, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Again, how is his personal background not important? TylerBurden (talk) 16:38, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Again, background is on "Background section". Cassiopeia talk 07:03, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand how a lead works, there is no reason to limit this article to a single brief paragraph, when there is much more content that could be included in the lead. TylerBurden (talk) 17:03, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

That is the reason why there are sub sections in an article. Cassiopeia talk 23:46, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

And if such sections are relevant enough, which by having singular sections clearly prove is such are WP:DUE. There is absoutlely no reason to limit the expansion of this article, other than previously your misunderstanding that this length has no reason to give. Other than that you personally do not deem it "important". This seems completely unreasonable to me, but with arguments like this I don't know what to say. There might have to be an RfC at this point. TylerBurden (talk) 03:02, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I have never said about lead length is the issue and DUE has nothing to do with lead. All I said is about important and significant of the lead content and not all info in the body text appears in the lead and that is the reasons why sections are designed for an article. You might want to check all the mma fighter articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassiopeia (talk • contribs) 06:17, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

No, WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a valid argument to stop expansion of the lead. If other MMA articles have bad ledes, there is no reason to follow a poor example, and if this is the type of reaction attempts at expansion gets, then there is no wonder they are the way they are. His personal background is significant, as is him being undefeated and breaking records. They are significant aspects of the article and should be in the lead. Again I find it absurd that it would be necessary to go through an RfC to improve the article, but I will start one to expand if that is necessary. TylerBurden (talk) 01:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

OTHERSTUFF has nothing to do with this. There are over one 1K MMA fighter article and you are saying all of them have bad lead and no one care to say anything or you just want the info in? Many MMA fighter have undefeated record when in their early day and they are all not in the lead as it is not significant. When the subject have significant achievement then the lead can be expand. His personal background is on Personal info or Background section which have explained. You just go round and round just to get the info in the lead which should not. I have explained and explained and I have nothing to add and would not respond further. Cassiopeia talk 02:50, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, there is evidently no point in discussing this further with you since you not only ignore the actual guidelines in favour of what you personally deem important (or not important) but now also are putting words in my mouth saying all MMA articles have bad leads (which I never said). I will start the RfC and other people can weigh in. TylerBurden (talk) 03:01, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

New picture

That image of Chimaev is literally the worst image I have seen for somebody on Wikipedia. Here are some better, can somebody please think about changing it? - https://dmxg5wxfqgb4u.cloudfront.net/styles/card_advance_small_280x356/s3/2022-04/103021-Khamzat-Chimaev-Hero-GettyImages-1350263428.jpg?itok=Z2TlsoV4 - https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2022/07/cf6068aa-4481-40d5-9409-0f449ce14fb5.jpg - https://staticg.sportskeeda.com/editor/2022/01/9b12a-16425312264280-1920.jpg - https://staticg.sportskeeda.com/editor/2021/08/d5bdd-16280471787926-800.jpg Trozenator (talk) 14:40, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Trozenator Those pixs are not irrevocably agree to release by the copyrighted person to contribute the images under the CC BY-SA 3.0 License to be published in Wikipedia. It is extremely rare for photographers in any media to release the right of their images. So far this is the only pix we could find that the source allow the pix/video to be used by anyone. Cassiopeia talk 23:14, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

RfC about second lead paragraph

Should the following second paragraph (or a variant of it) be included in the lead?

″Chimaev was born in the Chechen Republic of Russia, but emigrated to Sweden at the age of 18. In Sweden he started wrestling, becoming one of the country's best freestyle wrestlers winning several medals. He then ventured into MMA and signed with the UFC, going on a winning streak that would break the record for the fastest three fight winning streak in UFC history (66 days). As of October 2022, Chimaev is undefeated.″ TylerBurden (talk) 03:20, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Yes: WP:LEAD says as a general rule of thumb an article can have up to four well written paragraphs, in an article of this size there is no reason to limit the lead to a single paragraph and the proposed added content are significant aspects of the article, espescially for a biography it seems odd to leave out his personal background from the lead. Breaking records is also significant, as is being undefeated when you have over a dozen fights, though I'd be happy to leave out the latter if that'd reach a compromise. This is how the lead looked when I implemented the paragraph before Cassiopeia reverted it. TylerBurden (talk) 03:20, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Yes, why not.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:46, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
• OPPOSE: The discussion has already stated in this talk page under "Lead" message title. TylerBurden (Nominator) indicated WP:DUE and WP:OTHERSTUFF to add the info indicated to the lead section which both of the guidelines have nothing to do with lead at all.

(1) The achievement of wrestling info is already in the lead and no need to duplicate the info.

(2) "Chimaev was born in the Chechen Republic of Russia, but emigrated to Sweden at the age of 18. In Sweden he started wrestling, becoming one of the country's best freestyle wrestlers winning several medals. He then ventured into MMA and signed with the UFC" is already in the "Background section" and it info is just like all the MMA fighter (more than 1K articles) and not in the lead section.

(3) Record for the fastest three fight winning streak in UFC history (66 days) can be in the "Personal" or "Background" section as this is not a achievement but just happen to be scheduled to fight in such time. If added then source need to be added in the Background or Personal section.

(4) "As of October 2022, Chimaev is undefeated" Many MMA fighters are undefeated and especially in his early MMA career and none of the fithers of such info is in the lead because they are in the early MMA career not like Khabib retire unfeather. Many champion retained their title for a few times and the info not even mention in the lead section because the lead has already stated the are ether the formal or current champion. Chimaev is popular and well known but it does not mean not significant and important info should be added in the lead. It is not about the length of the lead (has second paragraph or not) but Lead is only summary of the most important, significant info and no more especially for such a young fighter's MMA career. Pls go and check all the MMA fighter articles in Wikipedia and pls note this is also the how is the lead guidelines and lead guidelines of WikiProject MMA (lead, background, early career, mma career, championship & achievements, fight record and etc) for MMA fighter article. Cassiopeia talk 00:01, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand why those guidelines were mentioned, particularly citing other stuff was because you started talking about other articles, and other articles having small leads is no valid reason to limit expansion on this one. The guideline that is relevant here is WP:LEAD, which clearly states the lead is meant to be a summary of an articles most important content and may be up to four paragraphs. Can you link these other ″lead guidelines″ that apparently support your arguments? Other than that, you are repeating your former points, which I still disagree with just as much since all the proposed details are significant aspects of the article suitable for the lead. TylerBurden (talk) 11:52, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

You use WP:DUE and WP:OTHERSTUFF to support your discussion which have nothing to do with lead. Pls read the lead on Wikipedia MMA project and do note over 1,000 article MMA fighter article also follow the same guidelines. Cassiopeia talk 04:41, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I already explained this, and you did not provide any of the links to support your statements. Again, read WP:LEAD which you conveniently are ignoring. TylerBurden (talk) 08:44, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support: The lead should probably have a second paragraph, but there are some issues with the suggeseted paragraph:

1. As mentioned above, his wrestling accomplishments in Sweden are already in the first paragraph so shouldn't be repeated.
2. Because of his continuing links with Chechnya the lead should say something about it. Birthplace is the simplest way to do it.
3. It's a "modern UFC" record. If it was considered an important record it would probably be on the List of UFC records. I don't think it should be in the lead.
4. Cassiopeia is right that there are a lot of undefeated fighters. He's won six in the UFC and 12 total. At what point do you think an undefeated streak is long enough that it should be in the lead? I'm not sure.--Killashaw (talk) 02:45, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

   @Killashaw I attempted to summarize more key information from the body of the article with my suggested paragraph, the intention is not to make him seem more successful than he is by mentioning records and streaks, but simply briefly summarize his fighting career up to this point. But I'm not opposed to different suggestions of what should be added to the lead, after all there can be up to four paragraphs per WP:LEAD, so there is enough room for expansion with other aspects as well. Overall, the consensus is rather clearly that a second paragraph of some kind should be added, with Cassiopeia remaining the only one opposed to it. TylerBurden (talk) 04:49, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Chimaevs birthplace and actual last name

Khamzat was not born in the village Beno-Yurt, he is from the village of Gvardeyskoye (Ielin-Yurt in Chechen). His last name is Chimaev and Girikhanov is the last name of his mother, which he took when he migrated to Sweden with her, while his father remained in Chechnya. Regarding the first part again. during Chimaevs birth the Chechen Republic as it is now, part of the Russian Federation, did not exist. The country was under control of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria and de-facto independent, Chimaevs birth certificate most likely also says Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, which is the norm for all Chechens born in those years. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 23:53, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

The sources you're attempting to use to support your edits do not check out, at all. You need to keep in mind WP:BLP and find better ones if you want to make these edits. TylerBurden (talk) 00:02, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

What do you mean by "do not check out"? I can't read Russian but I have some doubt that stuki-druki.com is a reliable source.--Killashaw (talk) 00:17, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

That's what I mean, the sources are either unreliable or do not say what is being claimed. TylerBurden (talk) 00:21, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Kindly point out where it does not say what I am claiming. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 00:37, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

It is a Russian encyclopedia, similar to Wikipedia. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 00:37, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, let alone Russian Wikipedia. TylerBurden (talk) 00:53, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

That is not what I said. It is a Russian encyclopedia, not the Russian Wikipedia. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 01:02, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Who writes the articles?--Killashaw (talk) 01:19, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't know who writes them but they use Russian sources, which I think are more reliable in this matter than English ones unless it comes directly from Khamzat or his team. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 01:27, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Can you find a better Russian source for his birthplace?-Killashaw (talk) 01:46, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I just found this, an interview by MatchTV (Russian broadcaster) with his brother Artur; "No, this is indicated in the registration, so the UFC writes Beno-Yurt. We grew up in Gvardeisky - this is a neighboring village" Reiner Gavriel (talk) 01:52, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

So, source 9 is a reliable source that clearly says Khamzats birthname is Girikhanov, right? No, it does not mention anything even close to it. That does not fall under WP:SYNTH, but the Russian sources I use do? Source 5 is a book from 2005 about Chechens in general. I doubt the book mentions how Chimaev started wrestling when he was 5 years old. Where does source 17 mention that Chimaev won a bronze medal at the Russian National Championships in the junior level? Reiner Gavriel (talk) 00:36, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Is your point here that if other things are not sourced, you are allowed to add unsourced material? Feel free to remove anything not supported by reliable sources, what you are doing is adding such content yourself, repeatedly. Your activity on this article is disruptive plain and simple, and you need to actually back your content up with real sources, not pretend ones. TylerBurden (talk) 00:51, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

That is not my point. I ask you kindly to stop accusing me of such things. I have removed and updated them with more reliable, Russian sources, but you decided to remove them and keep the "sources" I have pointed out above. What was the intention behind that? Since I am here open for a conversation, could you please tell me what the problem is with the sources I have used. I would appreciate a clear detailed explanation so I can respond properly in detail. Thank you. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 01:01, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

That's how it comes across when you start talking about other content on the article rather than your own sources, let's have a look at them shall we? First you use literally a forum to claim he "belongs" to teip. A forum. If that is your idea of reliable sources, then it's not surprising you're not understanding my issue with your edits. You then use stuki druki, which you yourself admitted is like Wikipedia, so hardly a reliable source for a WP:BLP. And finally you use 24smi to make claims about his mothers name, which is not even mentioned on the linked reference, blatant WP:SYNTH. Not sure what you're trying to do here, but whatever it is you're violating policy on serious levels, first by violating WP:BLP and then by edit warring to reinstate the content. TylerBurden (talk) 01:09, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

See, that is the problem. You not being familiar with the nature of the source does not mean they should be neglected. That is not "just a forum", it is a data bank from Chechnya with people collecting the information directly in the villages given on the page. Besides that, I have confirmed the information that he belongs, yes belongs, look into Chechen culture if you want to find out more, to the teip Enganoy directly by Khamzat through mutual friends. People familiar with Chechens and Chechen culture will have a better idea and understanding of the source. The source 24smi is used to show that Khamzats fathers name is Khizar Chimaev and that he did not move to Sweden with the rest of the family. What possibly could it mean, that Khamzat Chimaev suddenly turns into Khamzat Girikhanov after moving to Sweden with his mother? Reiner Gavriel (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

You have confirmed it personally, so I guess now Reiner Gavriel is also a WP:RS? Unless you can provide some secondary source that isn't yourself that these sources are reliable, or a discussion where they were deemed as such, then I struggle to take your word for it. Wikipedia is very clear on WP:BLP, and the sources also need to be absolutely clear, not just rely on our interpretation of them which is what you're adding them based on. TylerBurden (talk) 01:33, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

You claiming to have direct connections to Chimaev also raises WP:COI questions on top of everything else. TylerBurden (talk) 01:36, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I have claimed mutual friends, not direct and that is due to the nature of how small the Chechen nation is. Which questions does it raise? Which edits of mine would fall under WP:COI? Reiner Gavriel (talk) 01:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

You're editing about a person you claim to have connections to, isn't that obvious? Over a million people live in Chechnya, so it's not like everyone would have connections to him, let alone choose to edit his Wikipedia article. TylerBurden (talk) 01:45, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

You'd be surprised how connected the Chechen diaspora can be. I don't have connections to Khamzat, I know some people he knows, that's it and completely normal among Chechens. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 01:54, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Ok, that is not the main concern anyway, the main concern is the use of references, and your insistence on continuing to edit the article during the dispute is not exactly helpful. TylerBurden (talk) 02:18, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I have listened to your advice and "removed anything not supported by reliable sources" and took the time to find better sources regarding my information. Please have a look in the interviews with Khamzat and his brother I have linked in the newest edit. Those are not random blogs or similar, those are interviews by Russias biggest federal sports channel. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 02:21, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes I have checked the reference and it seems accurate, so good work on finding a better source for his birthplace. Just keep the same thing in mind with the other content as well. TylerBurden (talk) 02:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I can understand in retrospect why you had your doubts about the sources I had used at the start, I should've looked better, my mistake. May I edit in the information regarding his teip, Chechen clans. Although the source for it is a blog, I can assure that the information on there is reliable and is frequently used among Chechens. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 02:38, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

No problem, but I think a better reference is still needed for the clan content, not saying I don't believe you but with the standards of WP:BLP such content needs strong referencing. If no reliable mainstream sources exist currently reporting on it, one could very well appear in the future, remember there is WP:NORUSH. TylerBurden (talk) 00:29, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't think Reiner is being disruptive. He's just trying to improve the article, but we need to follow WP:RS. If there is a decent source to exlpain his use of the name Girikhanov, that should be in the article.-Killashaw (talk) 01:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Violating policy repeatedly and edit warring to do so is undoubtedly disruptive, but that can be discussed elsewhere if needed. If there are actual sources for these things, then that is what I have been asking for. TylerBurden (talk) 01:20, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2023

Please change Khamzat's method's of winning under the mixed martial arts record from brabo choke to 'D Arce choke, because Brabo choke is only the correct term when the choke is applied using the opponents Gi. Since this is about his MMA fights, they don't wear Gi's. Tobyteakle (talk) 13:17, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done TylerBurden (talk) 22:01, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2023

The current photo of Khamzat is blurry and of general poor quality, switching to a higher quality image would improve the article considerably. PanzerChopp (talk) 06:59, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

something like this https://d.ibtimes.com/en/full/3146672/khamzat-hero.jpg would be great in showing more what he looks like as well as portraying him as a martial artist. PanzerChopp (talk) 07:02, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Please read Image use policy. Your linked image is copyrighted hence can't be used here. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 07:04, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2023

In the section about his life, it says he "immigrated to Sweden" .. the correct term should be "emigrated to Sweden". 81.99.192.5 (talk) 07:58, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 08:19, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2023

In the line "Khamzat Khizarovich Chimaev[2][11][12] (Chechen: Хизаран Хамзат;[13] Russian: Хамзат Хизарович Чимаев;[14] born 1 May 1994), is a Swedish[15][16] professional" X = Swedish to Y = Emiratis(United Arab Emirates) citizen. 182.69.183.151 (talk) 23:00, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I say lets see how this plays out at his bout next month at UFC 294. If someone else wants to change it, better make sure your ref is rock-solid. Nswix (talk) 23:24, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Pinchme123 (talk) 05:08, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Move to United Arab Emirates

Chimaev has immigrated to the UAR according to a Swedish source: https://www.svt.se/sport/kampsport/khamzat-chimaev-byter-till-forenade-arabemiraten-han-har-utvandrat 2A02:AA1:1016:8722:1159:FC40:DA43:65CE (talk) 12:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Yep, in the upcoming fight he will compete under the flag of the UAE. It is no longer true to call him a Swedish MMartist/wrestler.--5.167.161.50 (talk) 23:13, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2023

Nationality is Russian, Swedish 84.55.116.86 (talk) 19:20, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

He never had Swedish nationality Nswix (talk) 19:22, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2023

Chimaev "Competes in the Middleweight division", not Welterweight.

He was consistently competed in BOTH divisions over his career, but after issue smaking weight at Welterweight he has recently moved to Middleweight and is chases the title in THAT division. 98.97.34.134 (talk) 23:15, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Correct. Changed. Nswix (talk) 23:36, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 09 November 2023

UFC Welterweight Ranking redirect is still on his page despite him now on UFC's middleweight ranking.-130.85.230.21 (talk) 18:31, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Bumping to request change from Welterweight ranking redirect to Middleweight redirect. I am surprised that no one has bothered to change that. -71.121.251.250 (talk) 16:50, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I dont see where this is. His lead says hes a Middleweight. Nswix (talk) 17:02, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry if I was not clear enough, his page still has the UFC top welterweight navbox even though he isn't in the division anymore. I was requesting it to be replaced by the UFC top middleweight navbox. -71.121.251.250 (talk) 19:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Last name

I dont speak Russian, but there are conflicting reports of his birth name, anyone able to figure out his real name at birth? Nswix (talk) 20:43, 13 February 2024 (UTC)