Talk:Killing of Bibi Lee

Adding False confession and Michael Ihde

Thanks for creating this page. I had postponed doing this. I think that it is important to mention the evidence that Page's confession is a false confession, and that there is another strong suspect in the case. I believe that Page still claims he did not commit the murder, and Leo's description of the false confession seems quite detailed. It is convincing to me. I did meet Page once, over a Tahoe weekend, less than a year before Lee's murder. But don't remember him clearly enough to have an opinion based upon that interaction. Nereocystis (talk) 19:35, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree, but we should present this argument in the trial section and at the same time present prosecution's argument. We can bring up the the Michael Ihde after conviction. Not sure yet but I was thinking that we should also bring up Page's indecent exposure incident in New Zealand, due to both instances having a sex aspect. Rybkovich (talk) 23:44, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

It may even be better to create a false confession issue section and bring your points down there. And in the trial section bring out the key points that were actually made at trial. I bought the book "dead girl" and it has a transcripts of opening statements. Rybkovich (talk) 00:06, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

These are interesting issues. Let me think about it for a day or two. We have the murder itself, the victim, and the suspects. I want to look at other false confession pages as well. BTW, your Lothlorien sandbox page was an interesting writeup, which adds things not in the current format. I knew a few Lothlorien residents in the 1980s. Nereocystis (talk) 04:42, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm trying to find cases/pages where someone was convicted, but is widely considered innocent. Not finding much yet, but here are two.

• Cameron Todd Willingham convicted of setting a fire which killed his 3 children. This page is about the accused, and not the crime
• Murders of Rhonda Johnson and Sharon Shaw possibly incorrectly convicted person. Mentions conviction, but also doubts in opening, and other confessions

I think that the opening should mention doubts about the conviction, since the doubts are from reputable sources. I agree with having moving the contradictions between confession and evidence early in the page. I prefer to have some of the contradictions in the section on investigations. Also, the legal procedure section suggests that only Page's defense attorneys pointed out the contradictions between confession and evidence, though the source is Leo, which is not about the attorneys arguments, but about Leo's and Ofshe's writings on the subject. Somewhere, I have a physical copy of their book, but it has been a while since I have looked at it. Nereocystis (talk) 18:13, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok. We can put that there has been academic/media published doubt about the confession at the end of the intro. Put actually made arguments in a trial section. And make a separate Self confession doubt (or something like that) section after that. Re putting contradictions in the investigation we can put some of the issues right after the he took back his confession statement. Something like list some aspects of testimony that were inconsistent with actual physical evidence. (PS I moved the paragraphs so its easier to navigate when looking back at previous points) Rybkovich (talk) 18:34, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

@Nereocystis Hey Nereocystis, out of the list of counterarguments that you put in, i took out the argument that Page could not have had sex with lee because of rigor mortis. I could find any sources for this argument being made. Was it in one of Leo's articles? Rybkovich (talk) 22:23, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Relevancy of Page's indecent exposure

@Scyrme: Hi Scyrme, you took out info re Page's conviction re indecent exposure, I would agree that this info would be irrelevant if there was no necrophilia involved in his killing of Bibi Lee. But, since necrophilia is considered to be an unlawful sexual penetration in California, a felony, a subsequent commitment of a sexual crime does become relevant to his denial of committing necrophilia. It undercuts the veracity of his denial, and his veracity is one of the key acspects of this article. Also, citations are not necessary in intros. Rybkovich (talk) 06:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Which reliable source makes the connection between the indecent exposure incident and Page's credibility regarding his denials? Unless covered by reliable sources, this is synthesis. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:31, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

@Cullen: By reliable source do you mean some sort of legal analysis? Is a newspaper mentioning both events sufficient? Also Page himself is a notable person, and the indecent exposure is an important event in his life. Rybkovich (talk) 17:42, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Mentioning both events is not sufficient. The reliable source would need to make the connection that you made above. Namely, that the indecent exposure incident undercuts Page's credibility in claiming that he made a false confession. The indecent exposure incident may have been important in Page's life, but this article is not a biography of Page. It is an article about a crime he committed and served time in prison for years before the New Zealand offense. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 18:06, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

@Cullen: Before we continue this discussion I want to make it clear, that I am not in any way biased against Bradley Page and want to underscore his guilt in any possible way. I'm a former criminal appeals attorney so if assumptions were made, me being pro Page would be a more reasonable one. If you look at the discussion above I had no problem with incorporating support for a false confession argument into the article. Instead, I think that him committing another sexual crime is clearly relevant to his character. Yes, the article should not present conviction of one crime as proof of guilt in another, but that doesn't mean that it should not be mentioned period. It would be surprising if Page's conviction for indecent exposure that occurred prior to the killing would be removed from the article, based on the grounds that the two events are unrelated. That info would be retained for the same reason it should be retained in this case, its related to character traits of Page that are relevant given the nature of the crime.

-Re notable source for indecent exposure - New Zealand newspaper, article is titled "US sex killer beats NZ's border checks" https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/us-sex-killer-beats-nzs-border-checks/LCIKFXUB5J6PQWIDDRGIVNCSKM/

-Re having a separate article for Page: He is a notable person, but there is zero info about him aside from the events of the crime and the trial. If nevertheless the article was approved it is likely that there would be an effort to redirect it back to this article.

-Also, can you please link to the policies that back the argument that content should be removed. I would gladly concede if that's the right thing to do given the goals of our project. Rybkovich (talk) 17:44, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

@Cullen: I propose an Aftermath section, which describes the Indecent Exposure crime, as well as a reaction to it from the newspaper article that reports its. From that paper's interview with a police officer who is making a connection between the two crimes: "Police spokesman Jon Neilson said police did not know that Page had entered the country until he was arrested. "I don't know how he came in, or what he came in on," Mr Neilson said. "We didn't know about it. Unless we've had formal notification from another international agency, we wouldn't know of anybody's travel movements. "We would need to be notified to be able to do anything. If we're not aware of it then there's not much we can do."

Below are Featured Articles, that have an Aftermath section, connecting unrelated events to the main subject of the article.

-Assassination of Spencer Perceval, Aftermath section: "A distant kinsman of the assassin, Henry Bellingham, became Conservative MP for North West Norfolk in 1983 and held junior office in the Cameron–Clegg coalition of 2010–15.When he temporarily lost his seat in 1997—he regained it in 2001—his narrow defeat was widely regarded as arising from the intervention of Roger Percival, the candidate for the Referendum Party whose votes largely came from disgruntled Conservatives. Despite the different spelling, media accounts asserted Percival's descent from the assassinated prime minister's family, and reported the defeat as a belated form of revenge." Event in distant relative's life is described, the connection to the subject of the article is based on media speculation.

-Eastbourne manslaughter, Reaction and aftermath: "Hopley largely withdrew from the public eye after the trial, becoming a private tutor in London and publishing pamphlets on spiritualism in the late 1860s. He died at University College Hospital on 24 June 1876. A retrospective editorial published in The Times in 1960 concluded that Hopley was not "the villain which some persons pictured him to be"; it noted that at the time of his arrest Hopley had been planning the construction of a "model school" in Brighton and that he had examined architect's drawings of the school after beating Cancellor." Defendant's death occurred 17 years after the crime. The entry is based on a single newspaper article, who's main topic is an obituary of the defendant, not regarding the crime itself.

-Lynching of Jesse Washington, Aftermath section: "On May 11, 1953, an F5 tornado tore right through Downtown Waco, killing 114 people and injuring 593 others. In the aftermath of the disaster, some people in the local African-American community saw the tornado as divine retribution for the lynching of Jesse Washington over thirty years prior." The hurricane occurred 30 years after the incident, reaction to the event and its relationship is described. There is a significant gap in time and reaction of unrelated individuals to an unrelated event is described.

-Michael Brown Okinawa assault incident From "Subsequent arrest and conviction": "In October 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping an 18-year-old Chinese-American high school student from a flea market in Milton, West Virginia, on October 2, 2005. According to the police, Brown, allegedly upset that collectible coins he had purchased a few weeks before were worthless, returned to the flea market representing himself as a police officer, handcuffed her, and drove the girl to Kanawha County under the pretense of taking her in for questioning." Unrelated crime, no connection is made between the two crimes. Rybkovich (talk) 18:50, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

As discussed previously, the relevant policy is WP:SYNTHESIS which is a subsection of No original research, a core content policy. You simply cannot write anything in an article that is not in accordance with that policy. I am not interested in delving deeply into those other articles. If you conclude that there is content in those articles that violates policy, then remove it. Based on your descriptions, most of that content should probably be removed. As for your sympathies pro or con, that didn't even enter my mind. The same goes for your profession. My only interest in this as an administrator trying to ensure that the relevant policies are followed. I an concerned that you write "its related to character traits of Page that are relevant given the nature of the crime." Which reliable source said that? None that I am aware. Therefore, it simply cannot be included and cannot be implied or inferred or hinted at in any way. I hope that is clear. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:24, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Cullen328 Your autocratic tone certainly is clear. Re your opinion, I'm not there yet. The beauty of our project is that we don't have autocrats. I will make an Aftermath section, you can delete it and then we can take it up to a broader discussion with our peers. There I suggest you also bring up your opinion that sections of multiple Featured Articles should be removed. Rybkovich (talk) 02:56, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Rybkovich, please either withdraw your unacceptable personal attack that I am behaving as an autocrat, or present persuasive evidence at a noticeboard such as WP:ANI that I am behaving in an autocratic manner contrary to policy. I already told you that "I am not interested in delving deeply into those other articles" and I am under no obligation to do so. If you succeed in gaining consensus to add this content, I will not object as long as you do not violate WP:SYNTHESIS. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:33, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Pinging Rybkovich. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:28, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks

I just wanted to say thanks for making a page about Bibi's murder. I didn't know her well, but four days before the "incident" I sat talking with her and comforting her while she cried about her relationship with Brad. Her best friend was my boyfriend's housemate, and while she took a shower and got ready to go out for supper with Bibi, Bibi and I talked for about an hour. Bibi was upset, but not because of another woman, but because Brad was so controlling. She felt he had expected her to be a passive Asian woman, a la the stereotype, and was frequently angry when she reacted differently than he thought she should. She said he sometimes scared her when he was angry.

Because the case is so old, I thought it had been forgotten, so I'm glad it hasn't been. She was lovely, smart, and funny and this was a terrible end to her story. As for the Aftermath section, it absolutely should stay in. I knew about it, because a few people have stayed in touch. In some way, it made sense to all of us that he would do such a thing, in a very similar landscape to the Berkeley Hills where she died. In light of what she said about him wanting her to be passive, his having sex with her dead body felt psychologically right, too.

Anyway, thank you. AwiDanae (talk) 06:32, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Confused writing

In the First Trial section, Lee is for some reason referred to as "Roberts". This should be corrected. 23.93.73.80 (talk) 21:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)