Talk:Killing of John O'Keefe

While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard.

Biography

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	An appropriate infobox may need to be added to this article. Please refer to the list of biography infoboxes for further information.
	An editor has requested that an image or photograph be added to this article.

Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Law Enforcement Low‑importance

	Law portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Law Enforcement. Please Join, Create, and Assess.Law EnforcementWikipedia:WikiProject Law EnforcementTemplate:WikiProject Law EnforcementLaw enforcement articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

United States: Massachusetts Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Massachusetts portal This article is supported by WikiProject Massachusetts (assessed as Low-importance).

Daily pageviews of this article

A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org

New Wiki Page

Hi,

Thank you for providing feedback and edits to the page! I am working on adding additional context and sources. Including background on the case, pre-trial hearings, prosecution and defense representation and impact coverage. I'd love to chat more about changes on this thread! CBEARWiki (talk) 19:35, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Criminal allegations

@CBEARWiki: The guidelines when writing about people who are suspected to have committed a crime advise that "[a] living person accused of a crime is presumed not guilty unless and until the contrary is decided by a court of law. Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured." WP:BLPCRIME goes on to advise that Wikipedia should not include material in any article that suggests a living person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. This is a stricter requirement than that for a living person who is notable for a single event. The reason for this advice is that anybody charged with a crime has the right to a fair trial. Additionally, the Manual of Style also advise to be careful how the word "alleged" is used and that any allegations need to be attributed to the actual source of those allegations. The "prosecution" merely describes the legal representatives for the party filing any criminal charges, not the people or organisation that they represent, such as the police department, or the State, Crown, People or other entity that notionally prosecutes criminal cases in the jurisdiction concerned. Wikipedia has a social and ethical responsibility to avoid harming fair trial rights, and the best way to do this is to wait until the court case is heard and the verdict known. In the mean time, I think this article should be moved to draft space and pass through the Article for Creation process. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 21:47, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I am editing for clarity and neutrality. A lot of the news coverage leans to either side. Trying to stick to just the facts. This case feels important enough to have a page up to cover the basic information. Appreciate you taking the time to comment! CBEARWiki (talk) 23:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm wondering if the page should be moved to "Death of John O'Keefe", until/unless a conviction is secured? ForsythiaJo (talk) 23:58, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a great point. I agree. It is not clear if he was killed. "Death of" would be more appropriate. Are you able to change that? I don't know how to. Thanks! CBEARWiki (talk) 00:21, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@CBEARWiki and @ForsythiaJo: A "Death of ...." article would imply the died accidentally. I think the fact that police have laid manslaughter charges means they believe it is more probable, than not, that someone is responsible for the death, though it may be negligence, and the death was not accidental. So, I think the word "Killing" is therefore still appropriate, even before conviction. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 01:22, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No credible evidence of an actual crime has been presented to date (other than DWIs). Allegations, yes. Evidence, no.

"Death" does not imply an accident, whereas "killing" does imply a crime.

I'm sorry, but the title as it stands expresses an opinion rather than a fact. There is a fair probability that that opinion will turn out to be false. 2601:188:C800:4BAA:8D26:5E36:F854:5EC4 (talk) 19:43, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, I have reviewed the excellent work by the various authors of this article. I note that the sole subject is the trial of Karen Read rather than anything about John O'Keefe other than that she has been accused of killing him. As I previously noted, he indeed died, but the ME could not determine a manner of death.

I would therefore suggest that the title be changed to "The Trial of Karen Read". 2601:188:C800:4BAA:8D26:5E36:F854:5EC4 (talk) 21:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Hi there!

I'd like to drawn on your expertise regarding sources. I agree that we want to use the most credible and reliable sources of information for this very sensitive topics.

Couple things I have found and am unsure how to site without using what is being considered "Unreliable sources" --

First is the published recording of the 911 Call where Jen McCabe reports O'Keefe's body -- this is published both on the TBDailyNews Site and was played on CourtTV. I'm not interested in referencing their commentary of the recording but I don'y know how else to site the actual police recording without those links.

Similarly, there are police memos and reports that were submitted to the count and have been published online and on TBDailyNews. In reading the police reports, they include key information of what is being presented; however, I am not clear on how to cite these without linking to the sources that are posting them (again, not taking the individual commentary into account -- only the case documents)

Thoughts? :) CBEARWiki (talk) 00:19, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ForsythiaJo -- You're not being picky at all! Would like your thoughts on how to do this correctly. Thanks! CBEARWiki (talk) 00:20, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see what you're saying, that's a good question. My first thought is we need to find these materials elsewhere, but I'm sure you've already looked into that. My second thought is that it's likely these primary sources will be brought up, or at least discussed, during the trial this spring. It's possible we may need to wait until then to have a reliable source to cite. Sorry this probably isn't much help! ForsythiaJo (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All good points! They have already been presented in pre-trial hearings, so I would assume there must be some other coverage of the case.

You're right, my initial searches did not come up with anything but I'll keep looking. I'll continue the hunt for some reliable sources. Thanks for weighing in! CBEARWiki (talk) 00:38, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]