Talk:Kingdom of Armenia
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Kingdom of Ararat
[edit]This doesn't imply Ararat/Urartu was an Armenian kingdom. It implies that Kingdom of Armenia may refer to Ararat in some sources, as it is referred to in one of the world's most famous books: the King James Bible. We're not here to impose an idea, we're here to help lead people to information. http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/ararat.html
Maybe it shouldn't be placed in the main section, but it should have a place in the "See also".
- please sign your posts.
- um, you are saying that the King James Bible refers to Urartu as the "kingdom of Armenia"? Book, chapter and verse please? I find exactly two mentions of "land of Armenia" in the KJV, 2 Kings 19:37 and Isaiah 37:38, incidentially a repetition of the same verse verbatim. The KJV is translating Biblical Ararat as "land of Armenia" in this verse (and this verse only). This has nothing to do with disambiguating "kingdom of Armenia". --dab (𒁳) 09:25, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- look I'm not going to enforce this too much, it's not that important, but I think it's legitimate to include Kingdom of Ararat at least in the see also, being as it's the direct predecessor of Armenia, and that in many sources, it is referred to as "Armenia" (I'll come back with evidence for this).Kentronhayastan (talk) 15:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- are you Ararat arev or something? I am not going to rule out you are, as this guy keeps coming back acting more grown up and reasonable, until it becomes clear that it's still about his old armenianhighland.com campaign. This is supposed to be a disambiguation page, not the history of Armenia article, ok? --dab (𒁳) 15:32, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- look I'm not going to enforce this too much, it's not that important, but I think it's legitimate to include Kingdom of Ararat at least in the see also, being as it's the direct predecessor of Armenia, and that in many sources, it is referred to as "Armenia" (I'll come back with evidence for this).Kentronhayastan (talk) 15:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- this article is about topics that may be referred as the kingdom of Armenia. We have seen, in one of the most popular English language versions of the Bible, that Kingdom of Armenia referred to Urartu. I said I'm not going to reinforce this idea, because I know Urartu wasn't an Armenian kingdom. But did I not prove that in some cases, "Armenia" is used to refer to "Urartu"? That's the only point I was trying to make here, and that's why I believe Urartu deserves a place in this article. I did effectively prove to you that Urartu has been called Armenia in a mainstream medium, so what is your counterargument? You're not a Wikipedia God. You can't go around editing things you don't know much about. Invite a third person to review our arguments, and let's let the majority decide what goes where. If people agree with you, so then be it. And please, spare me the arev thing. If you look at my other edits, you'd realize at what point I'm against wishful Armenians who like pretend we're something we're not.Kentronhayastan (talk) 19:50, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Satrapy of/Orontid Armenia
[edit]The Satrapy of Armenia later became a kingdom, it should be placed at the top.
- please sign your posts. If the Satrapy of Armenia is commonly known as "kingdom of Armenia" in literature, please present evidence to that effect. Otherwise it does not need to be listed for disambiguation. --dab (𒁳) 09:24, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Like I said, it started as a Satrapy, but it became a kingdom later. You can find evidence for this with 10 minutes of research. It shows how little you know about Armenian history, as this is common knowledge. Whatever, I'll bring you evidence for it anyway. Kentronhayastan (talk) 15:11, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Do you understand WP:NAME? I want to see evidence that it is referred to as kingdom of Armenia in serious, quotable, English-language literature. Look, you created a problem by this ill-advised move, and I am not prepared to do your job for you now. --dab (𒁳) 15:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- What ill-advised move? Having a disambiguation page to clarify and make an understandable distinction between the different Armenian kingdoms in history, rather than attribute the title to only one of the kingdoms?
- Kingdom of Armenia, Mack Chahin, 2001 revised edition
- Page 207:
- Do you understand WP:NAME? I want to see evidence that it is referred to as kingdom of Armenia in serious, quotable, English-language literature. Look, you created a problem by this ill-advised move, and I am not prepared to do your job for you now. --dab (𒁳) 15:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Like I said, it started as a Satrapy, but it became a kingdom later. You can find evidence for this with 10 minutes of research. It shows how little you know about Armenian history, as this is common knowledge. Whatever, I'll bring you evidence for it anyway. Kentronhayastan (talk) 15:11, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
| “ | [...] after Guagamela (331 BC), when Persia, along with the whole of the Near East, except for the kingdoms skirting the Pontic coast, was part of Alexander's empire, Ervand [Orontes] declared himself King of Armenia. Alexander did not attempt to cross Armenia. His satrapal nominee, Mithranes, was rejected as satrap, but accepted as crown prince, and on his father Ervand II's death, ascended the Armenian throne as King of Armenia. | ” |
- Page 208: :
| “ | Taking the strictly conservative estimate, the above review gives the kingdom of Armenia a period of 276 years of complete independence, from Mithranes to Tigran the Great (331-55 BC), with two or three very brief interruptions. Add to that period the 57 years of Orontes I's reign, who was king in all but name, and the 13 years of King Orontes II's rule, and two continuous, independent dynasties are revealed, spanning a period of 346 years. | ” |
- Orontes' rule, although brief, is considered as part of the independence of the Kingdom of Armenia. Kentronhayastan (talk) 23:50, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
fine, so it is possible to find "Kingdom of Armenia" applied to the Orontid period. Let's list it, then. But we certainly won't list it as the primary topic. If you are going to keep prancing around with this disambiguation page, I will revert the undiscussed move of Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity), because I will have to conclude that the move was made with an ulterior agenda. --dab (𒁳) 15:29, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have no idea what ulterior agenda you can possibly be referring to, other than my "agenda" to clarify that there was more than one kingdom of Armenia (1 -or 2 with Orontid- in Antiquity, and 2 in the Middle Ages). You said, "fine, it is possible to find kingdom of Armenia applied to the Orontid period" but I'm having a hard time understanding how this is not the exact equivalent to saying "Kingdom of Armenia may refer to the Orontid period." Moreover, Cilicia was also a Kingdom of Armenia. It's the kingdom of Armenia that succeeded Bagratid Armenia. The term Kingdom of Armenia can refer to Cilicia as well. Do I really have to point that out to you? Kentronhayastan (talk) 19:31, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
You do not, and I have not removed the link from the disambiguation page. It just so happens that the ancient kingdom is the primary signified of "Kingdom of Armenia" by far, and you have moved the article away from the primary referent for no good reason. If this goes on for much longer, I'll just move this page to Kingdom of Armenia (disambiguation) where it belongs. --dab (𒁳) 18:56, 14 January 2011 (UTC)