Talk:Knanaya/Archive 1

Hindu Nationalist Politics

I suggest there should be a section of this article on Hindu nationalist politics, and the relationship to claims that Nasranis are recent European or Syrian converts rather than descendents of India's ancient Jewish community. Clearly the existence of Jewish-Christian peoples represents a problem for efforts to define India in terms of a common Hindu identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.108.0.203 (talk) 18:48, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

CopyVio

I've listed this article as copyvio because recently a lot of CV content may have been added in complex edits. I cannot distinguish what is and what isn't myself, and I don't want to revert all of the user's edits because not all of them are CV's, so I'm asking this to be reviewed. (|-- UlTiMuS ^{( U • T • C | M • E )} 07:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The copyvio edits have been reverted . Instead of putting the entire works of several editors over the years under copyvio. It is better and fair to remove copyvio when vandals add them. otherwise many sincere wikipedia editors will be driven away from wikipedia due to hurt, despite sincere efforts over the years Robin klein 16:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Articles are not to be merged

The article Syrian Malabar Nasrani deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as an ethnic people. The article Knanaya deals with a subgroup within that community. It is therefore essential to have separate pages for the topics of Syrian malabar nasrani and Knanaya, which are highly related. Besides it is wikipedia policy to create sub articles when there is lots of details within a subtopic. This has already been indicated with the main heading link given to the subpages. Robin klein 21:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Syrian Christians and Knananya are not jews

This article claims Knanya are Jewish. They are only a sub group among the Syrian Christians of Kerala who themselves are migrants from Syria (Assyrian kingdom, Sassanian kingdom ) between 300 to 1200 AD. Ethnically the Assyrian people are different from Jews but are semitic and talk an Aramic tongue. The Assyrians are more closely related to Hittites and Mesopotomians. The Eastern Orthodox Church of Syrians, the Nestorian church is extinct after the Portuguese arrival.

All the Syrian Malabar Nasranis( Syrian Christians of India) claim to be either Jews or Namboothiris . The Knananyas among the Syrian Chrisitans came from Syria when it was under the Sassanian kingdom between 200 ad to 600 ad. They are Syrians belonging to the Arab stock descending from Asura of Assyrian people who are an ancient people of Proto Asian stock. The Persian Pahlavi could be an acquired language. The plates they present for proof often have Portuguese letters on it.The exact day of their arrival cant be ascertained though it is believed to be 345 ad. or later. Some say they came only after 800 ad. There was a decline of Judaism in Kerala when some of the Cochin Jews converted to Christianity , which is proof that some Syrian Malabar Nasranis and Knanaya have Jewish ancestry.

Knanya are of mixed Syrian and Portuguese mixed people

After the Portuguese arrival the Syrian Christans of India adopted the faith of the Portuguese the Roman Catholicism and the Jacobite (Western)around 1550.In the earlier period they were under the Suzernity of the Patriarch of Babylon. Without intermixture with the Portuguese this could have never happenned (as rumoured in Kerala). The food habits of Knanya closely resemble Portuguese than any Jew (Beef and Pork which are shunned by Hindus as well as Muslims of India). Their churches are built in the Portuguese style (Kottayam to Pala road).Elite among them do look like Europeans and not Jewish. They may even have blood of Manichaen Persians who were not even Christians or Jewish.

Mahadevar Pattinam was the Chera Capital not Syrians

Kodungaloor became capital only in the 8th century ad and was the capital of the Later Chera Kingdom. In the Earlier Chera kingdoms Musirippatinam (musiris)was a port City while the Capital wasKarur in Tamil Nadu. The old Tamil Sangha literature of Kerala never mentions the presence of Christians while there was numerous mentions of Greeks and Romans.Even if Christians were present in ancient Kerala they were living in the foreigners quarters talking alien tongues.

Kerindigen (talk) 14:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC

Claim of Arrival

They claims they arrived during A.D 300.But from the sources we can see the reign of Cheramaan perumaals was from 800 A.D to 1102 A.D.

Origins

The rticle says Knanaya people came from Eddessa (Which I believe to be correct) and now it says Kinai...Kinai? Rukyi 9:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Originally Kinai (i.e. Cana) in the land of Israel.82.6.114.172 11:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

speaking of origins, did u know that hindu records show that these christians were actually converted after they were polluted by eating beef. certain Namboodirs and nairs went to some place, some 40 families or summat, and they ate meat there and hence were outcast. They accepted christianity but the other christians didnt marry em. sSO they became an endogamous group...tht is these christians...Manu

He means the Nasrani. User:Manu_rocks is citing a derogatory Hindu tale about why the Knanaya keep to themselves. There are many such Hindu traditions against Jeish communities in India, though generally Hindus are polite enough not to re-iterate them and keep them alive. Eating beef might make Indian Jews seem polluted to Hidu's but not to anyone else Manu, so the sneer has no value for anyone outside of Indian culture.82.6.114.172 11:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The most common and historical name for this community is *Thekkumbagar*, which is Malayalam for 'Southists'. The name 'knanaya' is a 20th century invention by the Southist Jacobites. It later gained popularity among the Southist Catholics too. Therefore, this name doesn't have any historical significance as mentioned in this article. Malabari 09:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)Malabari

What are the Jewish traditions followed only by the Knanayas?

It's often repeated in several articles that the Knanayas have preserved more Jewish traditions than the rest of the Nasranis. I can't remember any. In fact, Knanaya Jacobites don't even have the tradition of Pesaha Appam that is followed by most Nasranis including Knanaya Catholics. Therefore, the tradition of the Pesaha cannot be counted as a surviving Knanaya tradition as almost half the Knanayas don't follow it. It however, is a general Nasrani tradition. I posted this question at the Nasrani page but got no answer. Hence, I am repeating it here. Any replies? Malabari 07:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Malabari

Candle lighting on Friday nights is one. Please do not be beligerent against those Knanaya who are proud of their Jewish origins. Of course the majority went along with the changes imposed after the portuguese arrived, but the vast majority are simply concerned with preserving the ethnicity rather than keep up religious practices be they persecuted Jewish traditions or dying Nasrani Christian ones.82.6.114.172 11:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

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Where do we accommodate these facts. Unless more authentic information is fed to this site, any average individual with normal intelligence would seek some other sites to get real info.

Beef eating Brahmin? A paradox. The ancient beef eating community, prior to the arrival of Christianity, was Parayas (Candalas) of Keralam. Tradition says that the Parayas were a noble class of ancient Keralam. Legend says that they were sons of Saint Vasista. Their craze for beef led to the ostracism by the rest jatis in the deluge of time. Above all, because of their beef eating habit, the later arrived Nambootiries (Brahmins) did a lot to seclude them from the Hindu main stream. Even though these stories bear no historicity, it can give some hints on the process of societal polarization.

Priests The high priests of the traditional Parayas are called Kaikaran. It is interesting to see that the trustee/prasuventi of Syrian church is still known/identified in the land as Kaikaran. Why did a savarna origin Syrian Christian not go for a savarna term like Kalakakaran or Adhikari instead of a subaltern terminology? No doubt, this trustee of the Syrian church (kaikaran) is always hailing from aristocratic Syrian Christian family circle/taravadu of the respective parish.

Are the people of Canaan white complexioned or not? It is the general belief of the Kananaya Syrian Christians that their ancestors had migrated to Keralam in the fourth century CE. They did not freely mix with the Saint Thomas Syrian Christians. An exclusive community and by custom avoided intermarriage with the local Christians. They are still maintaining a social seclusion by practicing endogamy. Those who go against the practice of endogamy may be subjected to the wrath of the society in the form of ostracism or more. The practice of endogamy, no doubt, aimed at maintaining their racial purity. Unfortunately, the Kananaya Syrian Christian communities have no Canaanite or Syrian look but most of them are either of black or brownish complexion and look like an ordinary Keralite. This anthropological aspect may raise serious doubts regarding their Middle East or Canaan origin. Contrary to this Jew experience, after a long stay of more than 2000 years in Keralam, the Jews returned to their homeland, Israel, both in colour and culture as Jews. Primitive burial practices.

Making a sudden diocese (1910 archdiocese of kottayam) doesn't make sense.All the peoples of a parish was allowed to enter their names into knanaya register and all converts then was entered into knanaya community.

Death of Spiritual Heads When the head of the Paraya (Candala) community is dead, as per the customary jati law they bury the corpus of the deceased head (moopan) in sitting posture instead of the usual practice of keeping the dead body in lying position. The Kananaya and Saint Thomas Syrian Jacobite/Orthodox factions of Kerala Christians are the only communities other than the Parayas (Candalas) to bury the corpse of their bishops (spiritual head) in the manner of the Paraya moopans of old. No other Christian factions neither upheld nor practiced such a burial system. This burial pattern suggests a very strong socio-cultural or anthropological relation between both communities, which lost their link elsewhere in the deluge of history.

Primitive rituals. Before the arrival of the British missionaries, the Syrian Christians of Keralam maintained the ritual of offering obsequies for the souls of the dead ancestors as that of the practice of Parayas (Candalas). After the Portuguese Catholic interlude the Syrian Catholics transformed this practice into a more refined form that is of Office/Holy-Mass. The obsequies for the dead ancestors contained blood, flesh and intoxicating drinks. The British missionaries through their helping mission programme forcefully removed most of the primitive rituals in their socio-religious space. Before the English missionary interaction, Syrian Christians on the occasion of marriages, as a social custom, ritually used the intoxicants/tobacco. Such rituals associated with marriages are still maintained by a few of the certain jatis (castes) like Parayas, Pulayas, Vetas, Vannan, etc of Keralam.

Syrian Christian a tribal culture in its true sense. It is said so, that the Kananaya Christian migration to Keralam took place in the year 345 CE under the leadership of a Persian merchant named Thomas. At the time of his arrival here at Kodungalloor, a port city and capital of Cera kingdom, he met the ruling monarch (there is no consensus amongst the Kananayas regarding the name and other details of the ruler of Keralam who seated at Kodungalloor in 345 CE) who granted 72 social prerogatives to his community in Keralam through a Copper Plate Grant(Kanai Thomman Cheppedu). However, one thing is very clear. While we scrutinize the content of the said 72 prerogatives we find that the jatis of Keralam like the Pulayas, Parayas, etc had been enjoying most of them for centuries. Therefore there is nothing extraordinary in this said Copper Plate Grant. It is very clear that this seventy-two prerogatives claimed by the Kananaya Christians are the sum total of the privileges enjoyed by various jaties of Keralam. So the Kananaya Syrian Christians, as they claim, are neither a monolithic social formation nor a foreign race exclusive.

Among the 72 prerogatives, some are later additions. A few of such later additions are the right to the use of Nettoor Box (a box manufactured at a place called Nettoor with coral tree wood Erythrina Indica and beautifully coloured, was usually used in rich and aristocratic family circles/taravads of medieval Keralam31), swinging cot, gate and gatehouse/padippura, granary, palanquin, etc. All these became symbols of aristocracy only after the ninth century CE. It is seen that prior to the ninth century the technology of carpentry (tacusastram) was not familiar to the people of Keralam, is an accepted truth. Above all the Kanai Thomman Cheppedu (Copper Plate Grant to Thomas of Canaan) 345 CE has no historical soundness and the text of the document at present in circulation is a fictitious one intended to justify their savarna origin. Till about 800 AD Kerala was almost a part of Tamilakaom and the language of the region was Tamil with its own peculiar local characterstics. The language of the fourth century CE Copper Plate Grant is the Malayalam of late medieval period. Malayalam became a transactional language only in the nineteenth century. Before that all documents of Keralam were prepared in the language of Tamil with Granthashram or Vettezhuthu script33. Above all the original document is not traceable either. While taking all these aspects into consideration one is led to believe that the stories centering on the Copper Plate Grant is an imaginary one.

The marriage ceremony of the Kananaya Syrian Christians, a further indication in this way of enquiry, contained numerous formal procedures and rituals that were alien to Christians all over. Some of such ritualistic observances in association with marriages that still exists amongst the Kananaya Syrian Christians of Keralam are the hair cutting custom, henna application ceremony, the ritual of ash tying, the customary practice of nadavili, the customary rite of thalakettu, etc. They are the real facsimile of the customary practices, through centuries, of the subaltern jaties such as Vathies, Velans, Vannanas, Vetas, and Parayas. Furthermore, since the very beginning of Kananaya Syrian Christian history intoxicating drinks has been an unavoidable item of the feast of their marriages. This traditional practice of serving intoxicating drinks by Kananaya Syrian Christians on the auspicious occasions is the replica of the above-mentioned subaltern jaties of Keralam in the bygone days. While considering all the above particulars, along with the omission of Kananaya Syrian Christians from the purview of the Protestant Christian Missionary reformist enterprises altogether kept the uniqueness of these section without any defacement, point to the conclusion that Kananaya Syrian Christians are the hodgepodges of subaltern jatis and a few alien elements as in the case of Anglo-Indians. In short, we can arrive at the point that anthropologically the Kananaya Syrian Christians of Keralam have no racial purity and genetically they are constituted neither by complete foreign essentials nor by savarna jati exclusive of Keralam.

Except Syrian Catholics and most of the Protestant Christians, almost all Syrian sections of Keralam rings a bell at the climax of their Holy Mass/Communion, the same is not much different from the sound of a Velichappadu's (Temple Oracle's) jingling bells worn around his waist. Most of the vanavasis of Keralam use a similar bell at the climax of their poojas (ceremonial offering to gods). Some jatis of ancient Keralam, who specialised in witchcraft, were also use similar kind of bells in their magical exercises. That they were using these bells to produce sound at the climax of their magical exercises and doing it at the same symphony as Syrian Christians do it in their Holy Mass is a noteworthy similarity. Without any hesitation, on the basis of the aforementioned traits we can arrive at a point of conclusion that the Syrian Christians are a hodgepodge of avarna jatis and not the descendents of Nambootiries converted to Christianity. BGfromNZ (talk) 04:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Languages spoken by Knanayas?

I am surprised to find Hebrew in the list of languages spoken by Knanayas. It is vandalism. Also, why is 'knanaya' written in Arabic script in the introduction? What role does Arabic script have in Knanaya history? Malabari 07:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Malabari

A Majority of the Knanayas today speak Malayalam.

Arab ethnographers wrote about the Knanaya, so the Arabic spelling is a useful reference to independent sources about the ethnicity. Some Knanaya are learning about their Jewish roots on courses being run in Israel, hence Hebrew is being spoken by such Knanaya, and it is not vandalism. 82.6.114.172 11:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Really? What Arab ethnographer would that be? Cite your reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.95.77.59 (talk) 23:42, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Persian Language

Father Thomas1960 on 3 May 2009 has added Hebrew as one of the languages in the article Knanaya. Why Persian and Syriac languages are excluded? If I am not mistaken, in Kerala their liturgical languages are Syriac and Malayalam and not Hebrew. Also the Persian crosses (see article Kottayam, Religious Institutions) are in their churches and in the churches where they had some influence. Some of the writings on these stone crosses are in Persian and not in Hebrew, or in Malayalam or in Syriac. I have seen three of these crosses known as Persian Crosses. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:53, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

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Knanayas ROCK!!

[b]By the by which Jew drink Coconut milk during pesha (?) lol (lol)[b] —Preceding unsigned comment added by MusthaphaMuslim (talk • contribs) 09:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly User:70.156.210.219. I would just like to point out a few problems with this page.

1)Although it has been a redirect from the (Arch)Diocese of Kottayam, the article includes mention of both Syro-Malankar and Nasrani/Syro-Malabar branches of Syriac Christianity.

2)The same people are called Meyuhassim or Malabari Jews, and their relatives who have chosen to revert their faith to pure Halakhic Orthodox Judaism are called Cochin Jews. Altogether they form one branch of the Kerala Jews divided on issues of belief in Jesus and skin-color from other Kerala Jews. At the same time they practice Endogamy and prefer to marry each other regardless of faith and never marry non-Meyuhassim, though they have married Meshuhararim.

3)Their language is Judeo-Malayalam regardless of whether their faith is Syriac Christian or more Jewish.

I think because of the complex nature of this ethnicity it needs a project I would like to propose a Mehuyassim project it will cross over the divisions of this unique Judeo-Christo-Malayalam culture and clear up misunderstandings.

Zestauferov 12:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello, I would actually like to learn more about the inquistion of the Cochin Jews. I'm by no means an expert, but I'd think, that Nasrani should either be merged with Saint Thomas Christians or with Knanaya. --Pjacobi 23:18, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

Nasrani as an Ethnic community

You stated that the pages Nasrani, Saint Thomas Christians or Knanaya should be merged.

No, it would be erroneous to do that. The article Saint Thomas Christians deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as a religious group and seeks to describe its religious denominations and other related aspects. While the article Nasrani deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as an ethnic people. (infact see the category in which the article Nasrani is listed at the end of that article).

In the same way that there is a significant difference between Jew and Judaism, there is a difference between Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christians. Jew deals with the entire ethnic community of the people of Jewish heritage and descent, or those people born of a Jewish mother. But Judaism is the religion followed by the ethnic community of Jewish people. The two concepts do highly overlap and are related but nevertheless they are independent in basic aspects and is treated as different.

In like manner, the nasranis is an ethnic community and in that sense a single community. However the ethnic community has various denominations as a result of the portuguese persecution. As an ethnic community they refer to themselves as Nasranis refering to the common cultural heritage and cultural tradition. However as a religious group they refer to themselves as the Mar Thoma Khristianis or in english as Saint Thomas Christians refering to the various and diverse [[[denomination]]s between them in terms of their religious tradition, despite a common ancestory of being the descendants of the early Mar Thoma church or Saint Thomas tradition of christianity.

The Knanaya people on the other hand is another denomination within the Mar Thoma church also called as (Mar Thoma khristiani) meaning Saint Thomas Christians. However they are a distinct community within the Nasrani ethnic group. Because of their long endogamous tradition.

This aspect is already written in the first paragraph of both the articles. Please read them carefully. Else this article would have been merged long back. The article Nasrani deals with the traditions of the nasrani community as an ethnic people and their present life (which has to be expanded). Robin klein 04:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

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Comment from a reader: Hello Robin, myself being one among the Knanaya community, and so many things stated by you and many others (with really different names from the local ethnic community names), I'm thinking, what makes you an expert in this subject to talk so authoritatively about this subject?

Childish fantasy of some knanaya I know many knanayas personally and i think most of them should be called as a "hindo Christians " because many rituals like "chantham charthal " are similar to hindu rituals.the claim of being Israeli origin is just for hiding their history.....................

Then about Hebrew language many of them don't know what does Hebrew means :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.41.134 (talk) 05:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Inconsistent usage of AD or CE

Noted that the article uses both forms to express dates. Suggest this hould be rationalised --Dunstan 13:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I object to the Bias of this page. We Knanaya are not all Christians, only the Nasrani among us are Christians. Can you please tone down the overtly Christian propaganda on this page and focus more on us as an ethnic group. Thankyou.81.154.38.43 14:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Its really sad that you have'nt took any refrence from the books writen by one of the greatest historian E.M.Philip which sems to be more reliable. ---

Update: I agree, anybody who is contributing to this article, should be first reading the books of E.M. Philip. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zubinraj (talk • contribs) 05:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Dunstan, can you please mention what religion you are following and how you are related to the Knanaya community of Kerala, India. Efforts are underway to cleanup the article and any comments are welcome. Thanks. --Zubinraj (talk) 06:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

This article needs complete correction? Added POV tag ?

A.History is written like story.We need some facts information.None of the information written has any proff.Even hostorians differ on the year.It can be anytime from 300 to 800 AD.

B.All wikipedia has lot of repetitions about Knanaya retaining Jewish traditions.I dont know about a single Jewish tradition Knanaya follow more than the Nasrani's.If there is nothing other than included in Syrian Malabar Nasrani traditions please remove the repetitive sections from this article as Knanaya are part of the community.

C.Many historians has written about the mixing of Knanaya with Veluthodathi and Chetty's and Manichainas.Those views are not represented in the article.

D.Marthoma Sleeba is not Knanaya symbol, its a common heritage of Nasrani's

E.Knanaya Copper Plates- No body has seen it and there are many contradicting versions of it circulating claiming Knanaya Copper Plates but actaully the Plates awarded to Mar Sapor Iso.

F.First time hearing about Knanaya hindus.What are they ?

Kevin 07:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the article makes too much mix up between Knanaya people and the Nasrani christians as a whole. It needs massive pruning if it is going to be a useful encyclopaedic entry on the Knanaya ethnicity. (I don't see how Knanaya could fit into the Hindu cast system either). 82.6.114.172 11:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Please give due respect to facts and re-write this article with a neutral point of view (NPOV) according to Wikipedia’s guidelines.

There are too many errors and headless statements in this article. Please go through the various questions and comments that readers have and try to answer them. Thanks. Malabari 06:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)Malabari

Non-Christian Knanayas?

Can anyone prove or give reliable evidence about the existence of any non-Christian Knanayas? Knanayas are usually Catholic or Jacobite. A Knanaya loses his or her identity once he or she converts to a non-Christian religion. Therefore, the question of Hindu or Jewish Knanayas does not even arise. Malabari 07:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Malabari

With all due respect to User:Malabari, I do not want to upset your beliefs, but there are plenty of agnostic and atheistic Knanaya who preserve the endagamous tradition. Please don't mix Nasrani up with the Knanaya ethnicity. 82.6.114.172 10:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

There are many non-christian Knanaya people. Knanaya is an ethnicity not a religon.

Update: I agree with the last comment, Knanaya should be considered as an ethnicity rather than a religion. It is based on the blood-line rather than any religious beliefs. Majority of Knanayites are either Jacobites or Catholics. There is a good number of Knanaya protestants too. Being a Jacobite Knananya myself, I believe that if the ethnic blood-line is maintained, irrespective of the faith, Knanayites will be Knanayites. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zubinraj (talk • contribs) 05:33, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Please use colons to indent new material so it can be identified from the previous editor.

When I see arguments like the above, I wonder if we have sufficient WP:RELY sources in the article. This is not a matter of "feelings" or "identity", it is supposed to be an encyclopedic article. If it isn't it should be deleted. Let's start flagging material that is not well sourced and get rid of it.Student7 (talk) 12:57, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Massive Christian POV Bias

I kind of object to the massive Christian bias in this article. Knanaya are an important endagamous ethnic group of Israelite origins, many of whom practise Nasrani christianity, but not all Knanaya are Christian at all! In fact many are interested in their Jewish heritage and there is even a school in Israel where they can learn about this. Can we make this article more about the Ethnicity and less about religion please?82.6.114.172 10:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Totally agree. Not all Knanaya are Christian.

This is Fiction

All artilce is written as a fiction.There is no credible referance for anything. Can some one re write this article or better delete it. There is no ethinicity called Knanya. This all picece looks like the work of a fanatic.User:65.218.154.227

I agree with much of what you wrote, but what do you mean by there is no ethnicity called Knanaya?82.6.114.172 21:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The article needs a MAJOR re-write, for factuality, language...pretty much everything. The group exists, yes, but this article doesn't give any semblance of a correct view of what they are.CharlesMartel (talk) 17:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)CharlesMartel

Are Knanayas ethnically entirely composed of Jewish settlers due to their endogamity?

This article seems to suggest the title, although based on phenotypes, my experience is that they resemble the communities all around them and other Nasrani.

Also I wanted to enquire who the people on the infobox image are.Nambo (talk) 02:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Requires Clean Up

This article requires clean up as its very much distorted. I invite the community members to provide suggestions.

Tarijanel (talk) 08:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

POV

Debates within topics are clearly described, represented and characterized since July 2007, but not engaged in. Gocart (talk) 21:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

POV Removal with out cleaning

Below text from an unknown editor has been removed with out any discussion by another editor. The debate on the talk page about the content of the article is not taken in to consideration by any editors.

Please dont remove the POV with out cleaning the article.

Gocart (talk) 04:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Legendary accounts aside, genetic evidence seems to indicate a non-Jewish origin for the Knanaya. Reports from historians (e.g., W. Germann in 1872) report a community of Manichaeans living alongside the Nasrani community as far back as the 15th century. These Manichaeans were kept outside of the community by the Nasranis (the non-Knanaya Christians). Under Nestorians and Portuguese influence, the Manichaean side-community were slowly converted to mainstream Christianity; however, they were still kept outside of the Nasrani community by the caste-conscious conservative Nasranis. This community of outsiders were the ancestors of the Knanaya. With time, the Knanaya slowly developed new mythological accounts to explain their origins (in more positive terms), including descent from Thomas of Kana. Initially, the Nasranis disputed such legendary accounts (since the Nasranis also claim descent from Thomas of Kana); however, in the last century, this resistance has waned as the Syrian Christians focussed on a variety of other internal disputes. - - It should be noted that the Jewish-origin claims of the Knanaya have very little justification in fact: the Syrian Christian community, in general, follows similar customs that originate from the ancient Jewish communities in Malabar. Often, the adherence to old Jewish customs among the Syrian Christians in Kerala is a function of geographical location and not membership to either the Nasrani or the Knanaya communities; Syrian Christians from more conservative areas (both Knanaya and Nasrani) tend to follow the customs more rigorously than Syrian Christians from more cosmopolitan areas. Hence, the presence of Jewish customs among the Knanaya only points to their religious integration within the larger Nasrani community, and not to a genetic Jewish origin. - - Moreover the mainstream Nasranis (i.e., the non-Knanaya Syrian Christians) have verifiable genetic claims of Cohen and Jewish/Semitic ancestry. The Knanaya have thus far failed to demonstrate any positive genetic evidence to support their claim as being an "endogamous Jewish community." Finally, the Syrian Christians are also known to be endogamous, often marrying only within the Syrian Christian community and excluding the Knanaya from such unions (with equal rigor)---endogamy in and of itself points to nothing other than the caste-based exclusion which both the Nasranis and the Knanaya have practiced for centuries.

Majority Population

What is the source of Majority Population Israel ? Gocart (talk) 04:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Removed the majority population of Israel and other countries. Majority population is in India, US, UK. There could be some population in the gulf region too. Other editors can update this as required. --Zubinraj (talk) 06:09, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Jewish identity

The Knanaya Catholics and their Jewish identity have been acknowledged by the Vatican under Pope Pius X, by instituting in 1911 a diocese only for the Jewish Christians (Syrian-catholic) of Kerala. [7] This diocese is called the Arch Diocese of Kottayam and is in the district of Kottayam in Kerala. [7]

This is gross misrepresentaion and forgery. There is no mention of anything in the order for diocese creation. The new diocese is created by power politics. Provide sourcesGocart (talk) 04:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

jewish identity is acknowledged by the vatican

Gocart, you have moved page even though all the established works on the knanaya refers to the community as Knanaya. the references have been provided. The text by the anonymous writer does not have any references they are just pov statements as are yours. besides your user name was created 2 days before the anonymous post, and you added the pov tag after the anonymous post.

besides the latin text of Pope Pius X at the erection of the Knanaya Kottayam diocese is "In Universi Cristiani" (Latin Text of the Papal erection of the Knanaya Diocese of Kottayam) It mentions the Knanaya people as Jewish. Which is why a separate diocese as Jewish tradition within the Nasrani christian jewish tradition of Syro malabar church was allowed in 1911. Vagab (talk) 19:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Vagab, your information is completely incorrect. Wonder where you are getting this information? Knanaya Catholics (the group that you are mentioning above) is a faction of whole Knanaya ethnic community, other being loyal to the Syria-Jacobite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.246.222.198 (talk) 07:09, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The Vatican and ther Syriac Patriarch may have created separate dioceses for the Knanaya---this is only indicative of the separation of the two communities. It does not prove that the Knanaya had Jewish ancestry: the Romans and the Syriacs merely accepted one of the many variable mythological histories advanced by the Knanaya to "explain" their separation. Neither of the two investigated the matter in any significant way. As an actual scholar (Leslie Brown) indicates this action resulted in the unfortunate creation of a new diocese: unfortunate because it was due to distortion of history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.95.77.59 (talk) 23:46, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It is very easy to spoof a copper plate (Not fully disguised also, languages in Arabic and portugeese in which portugeese is a very neo language against the claims) and show it to Vatican and create a diocese during that time.

Re -naming and re writing of article

Tekkumbhagasamudayam Charitram by Chazikadan names the community as Tekkumbhagar. This article should be renamed to Tekkumbhagar.

Gocart (talk) 05:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

reverting pov edit

Gocart, you have moved page even though all the established works on the knanaya refers to the community as Knanaya. the references have been provided. The text by the anonymous writer does not have any references they are just pov statements as are yours. besides your user name was created 2 days before the anonymous post, and you added the pov tag after the anonymous post.

Besides the latin text of Pope Pius X at the erection of the Knanaya Kottayam diocese is "In Universi Cristiani" (Latin Text of the Papal erection of the Knanaya Diocese of Kottayam). It mentions the Knanaya people as Jewish. Which is why a separate diocese as Jewish tradition within the Nasrani christian jewish tradition of Syro malabar church was allowed in 1911. Vagab (talk) 19:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Very well written

This is a very well written article about knanayas. I find it very fare and unbiased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.175.2.238 (talk) 21:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Misleading Masada quote.

The following misleading and tendentious tie-in with Masada was removed:

In 70 CE, hundreds of Kanahi evaded capture from the Romans and took shelter in the fortress at Masada. In 72 CE, after a two year siege, 960 Kanahi unwilling to give up to the Romans killed themselves before the Romans could capture them. This act of martyrdom is still commemorated in Israel.

The Jews of Masada were not known as having any connection to later Christian sects, regardsless of that group's claims. IZAK (talk) 07:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Migration

After Mar Joseph (מרץ יוסף) (مار جوسف) had a startling dream in which he saw the plight of the Christian church in Malabar (ملابار) established by St. Thomas, the Apostle, in the first Century. This sentence is incomplete! Lilaac (talk) 06:31, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Misrepresentations

The all article is written with a misrepresentation objective. There is no reference to any historical records and only futile hypothesis has been written as history.

http://nasrani.net/2007/02/17/historical-references-about-southist-community-tekkumbhagar-knanaya/ has some 166 posts and a very detailed discussion.

Editors please see that the modus operandi of propagating opinions as history should be controlled with justifications to historical references.EasoPothen (talk) 14:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

POV Check

I request a POV or Bias check for this article.

or

– Reasons- Reference are given wrong. There is no justification to real history.

Example-  The introduction statements,

POV Introduction

Knanaya or more accurately Q'nanaya, (Heb:קנאים, Malayalam: ക്നാനായ, Ar:قينان), literally meaning "Knai people" or "Q'nai people", claim to be a Jewish Christian people of early endogamous Jewish descent from Kerala, India.[4] Their heritage and culture is Jewish-Keralite and their language Malayalam and Hebrew. [4]

The reference given are Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970.

This is blatant misrepresentation and misquotation. There are no such statements which can be read in history books. Please quote page numbers where you find these information.

POV Title

{{POV-title}} - This is titled Knanaya. This is a new name adopted in 1992. I suggest renaming of the article to Southist- Thekkumbagar.EasoPothen (talk) 15:20, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I propose renaming the title to Thekkumbagar ( Southist)

Following are the reasons 1. Knanaya is a new name adopted in 1992 2. The people are called and still called as Southist and Thekkumbagar 3. Almost all the books written and the historical documents mention them as Southist and Thekkumbagar.

EasoPothen (talk) 00:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Easo, it is probably better to redirect to Thekkumbagar, but include an explanation of their origin as zealots from the Kingdom of Judah and hence the "Kna" name.82.6.115.62 (talk) 00:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I have changed the article title to Tekkumbhagar based on consensus. EasoPothen (talk) 15:38, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The title i changed was reverted. Any suggestions on title- I think Thekkumbagar- Southist- Knanaya makes sense provided that it is properly explained in article. EasoPothen (talk) 07:45, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

POV Section

---- This article is divided in to the following sections.

1 Etymology 2 History 3 Early history 4 Migration 5 Pre-Colonial 6 Persecution by Portuguese 7 Modern history 8 Culture

The information provided in these sections are misrepresentations. For example Etymology- Penteado (1518) merely calls him an Armenian merchant without giving his name. Others call him Thomé of Canane from the country of Canane (Mar Abuna-1533), Thome Cana (Correa-1564), Quinai Thorné (Dionysio-1578), Mar Thomé (Monserrate -(1579) and Gouvea-(1604)). Thome Cananeo (Roz (1604) ). The Malayalam form is generally Canai Thomman and is better expressed by Dionysio than others. Mar Thomé is from the SyriacEasoPothen (talk) 15:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

POV Ethnic Group Box

factual accuracy

Disputed and evidence solicited for the following,

1. Significant Populations- Reference and Population Statistics from reliable sources. 2. Languages- It is mentioned that Malayalam and Hebrew. Sources Please ??????????? 3. Religion- It is mentioned that Majority Jewish Christian--- What is that ??? Sources Please ??????????? 4. Related Ethnic Group- Evidence for linking those groups.EasoPothen (talk) 00:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Removal of POV

User- 159.18.6.246 (talk) - Removed the POV without discussing.EasoPothen (talk) 20:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

User-User:Jurrids - Removed the POV without discussing EasoPothen (talk) 04:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions for changing the article

Contribute to change the article-EasoPothen (talk) 07:39, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Tekkumbhagar or Thekkumbagar or Southists ( also known with recently concatenated name Knanaya) are a group of Christians in South India who follow endogamy. Since 1910 and 1911, they form separate dioceses in Jacobite Syrian Christian Church and Syro Malabar Church. Some of them also has joined Protestant and Pentecostal churches in recent years.

History

The Christians in Kerala have distinguished themselves into two mutually exclusive sections, the Northists and the Southists. Members of each of these divisions identify themselves and assert their superiority in legends which downgrade the other. The Malayalam names for the Christian divisions are always Tekkumbhagar-Vadakumbhagar, but the English equivalents may be Nordhist-Suddhist or Northerner-Southerner, though Northist-Southist is most common. Southist has started using the term Knanaya from 1990 onwards.

Origin according to Southist tradition

During the 4th Century, there was a massive immigration of Syrian Christians to Kerala coast. They consisted of 400 Christians from 72 families belonging to seven tribes in Jerusalem, Syria etc., under the leadership of the Merchant Chieftain Thomas of Cana Knayi Thoma accompanied by Bishop Mar Joseph of Edessa also known as Uraha a City of learning in Mesepotamia and a number of Priests and Deacons. For this immigration they had the blessing of the then Patriarch of Antioch and his deputy the Catholicos of the East in Mesepotamia]. On landing in Cranganore in 345 A.D. they were greeted by the King Cheraman Perumal and the native Christians there. The Perumal honored them by confirming many titles and privileges and allowed them to settle as a separate Community in a tax free land gifted to them on the Southern side of the Mahadevapuram Township nearby; the northern part already occupied by the native St. Thomas Christians. Thus the Division as Southerners and Northerners among Syrian Christians in Kerala.

FROM A SYRIC STUDY NOTE

Regarding kanaya thommen also read from a syric study note have given in a college that In the year 345 A.D Thomas of cana, an Edessan merchant, came to malabar with 472 families of Mesopotomain Christians. The king assigned to Thomas and his followers extensive lands near his Capital city and they settled down there. Unfortunately there arose a split among the colonists, 400 families standing as one party and the rest remaining sepereate. The group of the 400 famillies settled in the northern street of the colony and the other group in the southern street Those who settled in the north were called Vadakkumbhagar and those in the south Thekkumbhagar. The Vadakkumbhagar (syrian missonaries)carried on evangelization and added new christians to their community. The Thekkumbhagar did not evangelize any and remained a community distinct and isolated. The arrival of these colonists increased the prestige and strength of the malabar church. The racial admixture and social contact of the indian christians with the foreign race served to improve their quality and to better their political, social and economic status.

Therefore it seem that st thomas converted many jews and some brahimn converted at the first century are the Mar Thoma Chrisitans. Again it seem that northist and southist are from the same group claiming knanaya tommen legacy. However it does not mean the knanayas were only the west asian immigratant in kerala but they are claiming the decendent of knanaya tommen group. syrian assyrian immigrants are arab christians. There had been have some troubles noted in histories among arab chrisitnaity such as jacobites and early nazranes were tried to become seperate but they more likely to mix with other converts in kerala. There could be some reason orthodox or marthoma christian did not go well with the anthioh relations It also noted that pre portughese eara they had been nestorian influences and many jewish coustoms been practicing as sabbath and pessiah but lost after the protughese.

Origin according to Northist tradition

The Southerners were their attendants and formed marriage alliances with the indigenous low caste converts. Some other stories trace the origins of the Southists to a dobi, a washerwoman, whom Thomas of Cana took as concubine.

Reply to Protectors of Propaganda materials

There are some user ids which acts as protectors of this article such as User:Vagab, User:Rukyi, User:Jarek23, User:Jurrids. I don’t know if these are same person or some of the priests who used to fill this earlier.

Wikipedia is not a place to put propaganda materials of any diocese. If there is some point in Kottayam diocese materials you should better discuss it in talk page..EasoPothen (talk) 19:03, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Another User:AmyHumey pasted the propaganda material. Why dont you guys discuss and reply in this talk page before doing the copy and patse ?EasoPothen (talk) 22:15, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Changes in Ethnic group box

-Removed Isreal- This is the height of hysteria. Give some proper sources if there is any subject.

-Removed Hebrew- laughable. When did Thekkumbhaar of Ranni started speaking Hebrew ? Don’t be a joker.

- Religion- Removed the Jewish Christian. These people are Christians in Catholics and Jacoboite dioceses. Some of them are in Protestant and Pentecostal Churches

Give sources in case of objections.EasoPothen (talk) 19:47, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

- This article is about Thekkumbhagar who are from Ranni, Chingavanam, Uzhavoor etc. They are members of Catholic, Jacoboite and Pentecostal Churches. For Catholics, they have a separate diocese at Kottayam and for Jacobites at Chingavanam since 1910. From 1960's onwards like the Muslims, Ezhavas some of them have moved to European countries. So some of them are at present in EU countries and USA and these Kottayam and Chingavanam diocese has the statistics. If you are what you claim, this article is not about you. I have checked with the Kottayam and Chinganam Catholic and Jacobite diocese, there are not even Thekkumbhagar any where you claim. This is an encyclopedia article and if you have sources please state that than wasting your time writing and pasting propaganda. POV is there for long time about each of the statements in this made up propaganda article. The entire references are mis representations. There are also photos which has no relevance to the subject and very little factual information is provided. EasoPothen (talk) 23:36, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

- Knanaya is an ethnicity and one can belong to any religon and still be Knanaya. In addition, EasoPothen, please state your sources as well. Harpercountry (talk) 14:08, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Moves

• Following is the original talk page of this article . This was not moved when the article was recently moved from Knanaua to Knanaya

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Knanaua

  Reasons for the POV is explained in the talk page. All the POV's were removed with out any reason/explanation/discussion multiple times since July 2009. What has been done in this article is just citing some book names for all the creative statements. The POV is for the reason that this fiction article cite well known authors book as reference for each creative statement. NO SUCH STATEMENTS EXIST IN THE BOOKS CITED.

  Give some justifications before you wrongly quote all the books with most stupid stories and repeatedly mess the article and remove the POV. EasoPothen (talk) 05:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

• I have repaired this move. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:33, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The editor is saying that a "syric study note" is not a WP:RELY source. The "note" is a "tertiary" source. We need secondary sources from serious researchers. We need in-line reliable sources here. They don't seem to be forthcoming. Apparently all we have is fairy tales handed out to willing believers. Student7 (talk) 13:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Edit summaries

An editor has persistently deleted the comment about filling in edit summaries so other editors can understand WHY a change is being made, a very persistent problem with Indian Christian articles. Many changes have been made by unregistered editors which later, had to be removed, one by one, by persistent long-time editors. It is just easier to revert these immediately and get decent discussion or understanding and/or citations of the changes up front.

Please fill in edit summaries. Please use WP:FOOT from WP:RELY sources, which are usually NOT church handouts. Student7 (talk) 21:03, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring

This article seemed to caought between two extreames, I suggest that section by section we come to compromises based on realibale sources. Any takers Taprobanus (talk) 22:11, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

There are few editors who repeatedly paste propaganda material, they dont believe in discussions.They will do what they know and thats the removal of POV and pasting of propaganda material EasoPothen (talk) 07:42, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

That is okay. There are enough of us to be able to revert them until they justify their claims or give up. Student7 (talk) 23:29, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

EasoPothen, you need to post your sources as well for veracity of claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moristein (talk • contribs) 20:20, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

this article is completely biased, written by brainwashed people

look at any knanaya priest he looks like any tamil south indian. it is ridiculous to believe that this "endogenous" yet native malayalam speaking and native malayalam looking people have origins in any land but south india. nice try, but we are not brainwashed on this site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jewwankenobi (talk • contribs) 01:52, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Some facts

From 1960, I have noticed a lot changes taking place among the Knanaya community.

• Before that they were known as Knanaya Christians or Thekkumbhagar. They were not Malankara St. Thomas Christians.
• They were known to have arrived from Persia.
• Their crosses with Persian inscription (Pahlavi scripts) are in their churches. Before 1960 those crosses were known as Persian Crosses. (Now they are known as St. Thomas Crosses, Nasrani Menorah, etc. Reasons to adopt these names are not known to me).
• It was their bishops or priests or relatives who visited Kerala. This developed into stories that St. Thomas Christians were ruled by bishops from Persia. These bishops were entertained by Knanaya people. Of course they were welcomed by St. Thomas Christians also.
• It was Mr. E. M. Philip, a Knanaya leader, who was in the forefront of the Seminary case with Mar Thoma Church that won (1899) all the properties of the Malankara Church to his Patriarch party.

Instead of boasting that they are Jews from Cana (which they are not) and covering up their true history, if they can write the true facts, so much edit warring can be avoided. As far as I know, there are very capable people among them who could present the true facts clearly and correctly.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 11:54, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

You have to do lot of reading to get basic idea on what you are talking. Most of what you wrote as facts above are false information stemmed out of your ignorance. Pamparam (talk) 02:56, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Talk archive

Older discussions are in /Archive 1. -- Chonak (talk) 00:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The Topic (Knanaya) should be deleted

The page itself is a goof. 1) No body in Kerala can claim as monoethnic due to a study by BBC in October. 2) They lack proofs ( no copper plates of significance are there making it just a myth not history). 3) Their practices have more resemblance with Portuguese rather than claimed jewish formalities. 4) All the peoples (including converted christians) worshiping under churches was admitted and entered into the so called knanaya register on formation of archdiocese of kottayam 5) If kananayas have pure jewish blood then there shouldn't be any person in the community with blue eyes. But there are so many fellows belonging to the community with blue eyes stating Portuguese connection.(similarly one more endogamic community in kerala kuttichira,near kozhikode says they are pure arabic.there is no Portuguese connection here but only british connection). please see these documents also. http://nasrani.net/2007/02/16/the-plates-and-the-privileges/#comment-4325 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.17.230.253 (talk) 12:34, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Knanaya Pentecostal?

Officially there are only two 'sabhas' - the catholics and jacobites. the knanaya pentecostal group is one formed by those who went against the customs and joined either the traditional pentecostal churches or other prayer-groups. they do not necessarily follow the same customs as that of traditional knas. somehow, they want to leave the fold yet maintain their kna identity which is perfectly alright. But a kna individual cannot continue to be one unless s/he continues to follow tradition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.242.254.126 (talk) 15:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

If so then why there is no Knanaya Muslim too :) ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

There are 10,000 Knanaya muslims, but they don't mix with people who do not keep all the law of Moses.

Pentecostal is the true religion! Speaking in tongues and worshiping GOd! Not Mary. 81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Peshitta

Some automatic filter on this page won't allow correct spelling of the Peshitta to be included. This is a great pity as it is THE central aspect of Knanaya "Hebrew" life.81.103.121.144 (talk) 01:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I found the solution by linking to the Jewish Gospels pages which at lest discuss the Peshitta.81.103.121.144 (talk) 19:34, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

81 103 121 144

Hello 81 103 121 144 Instead of editing the article like Knanaya a number of times continueously, please learn how to use the sand box.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:40, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, it is because I am disabled and can only do a little at a time. Very sorry. 81.103.121.144 (talk) 19:27, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

you may be disabled and because of that inferiority complex you are making insulting allegations towards nasrani's forgetting that knanaya women were raped during portugese inquisition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 06:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Nasranis are wonderful people, it was certainly not my intention to make any "insulting allegations" could you clarify how please so that I can make corrections? Thank you.81.103.121.144 (talk) 18:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

with duo respect,'living fossils',is that a term to indicate the wonderful people? even no genetic tests until now claimed the jewish origins of knanayas,how nasrani's alone be living fossils ? if then knanayas are a cross breed of portugese-arabians like latin-christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 07:24, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Living fossil has no malicious meaning it is in fact a complement to the academically acknowledged antiquity of the tradition. I mentioned this last time. If you read the section carefully you will see it says there is no difference between Nasrani and Knanaya.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Even there is no specific reliable reason for the creation of archdiocese of kottayam. It is been known that false copper plates with arabic and portugese inscription was the reson behind it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 07:28, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I am interested if you can produce a reference concerning the copper plate forgery which you mention.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:47, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

what type of reference you need,the original copper plate you produced before pius xth? and I like to see the original copper plate defing a kna's jewish ethos. But I prefer to see a genetic test report of a 100% jew and a knanaya more than that :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 12:12, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Example of Fakeness

This is the opening sentence of this article: Thekkumbagar/Knanaya or more accurately Q'nanaya, (Heb:קנאים, Malayalam: ക്നാനായ, Syriac:ܛܢܢܐ, Ar:قينان) from Kerala, India, are a Jewish Christian people of early endogamous Kenite descent.

The references given are Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. All of these are fake references. Some one pasted their propaganda and for authenticity faked the sources as Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. In fact there are many scholars who have written about Southists but none of them are cited either correctly or wrongly.EasoPothen (talk) 07:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Present your quotations here. We are all interested in what you have to say. Please demonstrate it here, then we can put it into the article.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Lot of attempts are there for making knanaites superior than other christians. This is a disputable attempt that neither of them attempt to provide scientific tests providing their jewish identity(atleast one). Even the dispute icon in the page is deleted by vandals.Having whitish complexion is the method of considering one as knanite,then whole whitish christians should be considered as knanites(let us forget the similarity between christians in Goa and knanites). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 07:22, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems that there are people trying to defame the Knanaya people with baseless slander. [User:Avalinelemar|Avalinelemar]] (talk) 10:59, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

poor knanayas.they even kills Sister Abaya and even removes the references from the knanaya page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

What kind of logic is that? This is an ethnicity page. Why should the death of a Catholic nun represent people who could very well be other faiths? Furthermore, why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people? Please improve your grammer next time you post. [User:Avalinelemar|Avalinelemar]] (talk) 21:55, 03 May 2011 (UTC)

Since it is dealing with (your) ethnicity(purely jewish as claimed), it does sounds well. your answer has it all.No such incident has been reported in the history of Syrian churches except knanaya's(you should be thankful for native christians for making them harassed in the name of this incident(being christian) apart from making them 'living fossils'). I like to know the mistake in the sentence too :) Mr/Mrs.Grammer teacher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you :). Sorry about my outburst. I actually never stated that I am Knanaya and I am not. Unfortunately, I do not see how my reply has "it all". Like I said earlier, not every Knanaya person is Syrian Christian or even Christian in a broad sense for that matter. Furthermore, why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people? Is there a list of murder cases on the pages of other ethnic groups? [User:Avalinelemar|Avalinelemar]] (talk) 22:16, 04 May 2011 (UTC)

Please go through the sentences you wrote. I sensed a smell of intolerance(which usually a character of this community).Sorry to know that you are not a kna.I guess you are just a 'living fossil' as specified in the main article. regarding , why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people,the abaya case was brutally screwed up by the fellows in this community to save the culprits.Even one political leader belonging to kna was there in delhi to make it possible (according to intelligence report by kerala police).From these everyone now know that it is not an individual's action but a community project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 11:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

There are plenty of middleastern people of arabic and syrians as syric christians in kerala. basically these are not at all a surprise. if people can understand these middleastern sense we can even compare a syrian christian to muslims from middeast or we may compare muslims to a syrian/kananay community . so simple. but these people eventually mixed in to kerala population over centuries such as locally marrying and populated. Any of these featured people in orthodox or syrian churches can makeup a conclution of these phenomen. sometime i doubt sreenivasan or son veeneth srenivasan seems having these muslim blood.These can be happen in kerala populations. As i observed or many pointed out that nair are also middleastern.some claim that they do have persian orgin. bascially our connection to persia or syra or to the middleastern land is evident and its not a surprise. In a way these facts are correct but if we asked too much about these all the facts are not correct. Brahimns among st thomas christians I think there are more clues for these, Many families know where there patrneal sides came from regardless of investigations. among ancient jews and arabs christians it may hard to find weather someone is arab decendents or jewish decendents. as long as fatherside keep track of their histories actually it cannot be miss it orgin, that i was confused a while ago. i think there was brahimn christians become nasranis and their were so devoted to eso as they found about iso messiah and his power from St thomas They composed many classical song and strict life being christian such as morning prayer, bath and vegetarianism but they brought some rituals. eventually when those brahimn converted families brought brides from middleastern immigrants their orginality began to change. there are middleastern group mixed among the brahmin converts as northist and middleastern immigrant marry other women like brahimn. the middleastern immigrants who did not joined northist become southist. so persians migrated to malabar also the central asians and brahimns now comes as northist and others are west asians. but what happened whichever northist familiy mingled with middleastern immgrants are patrneally brahimns but autosome testing middleastern such as features and culture compare to brahimns

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.190.102.59 (talk) 23:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC) 

TO ALL SOUTHISTS WHO CLAIM ENDOGAMY OF 1600 Years

1. ) No species which had undergone endogamy for 1600 years cannot survive (scientific evidence proof is available,example is pharaos of egypt).
2. ) Genetic tests of Southists are available in www.ysearch.org. It reveals that, there is no difference in genes between northists and southists. this reveils that there is no genetic match between jews in israel and southists.
3. ) The stories of origin of southists dates back to 15th century where vellallachetties converted to christianity.(No intentional insults here)
4. ) Out of the results of DNA samples tested, 50% mDNA tests indicated South Indian Origin(Dravidian).

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 06:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC) The abstract from the letter of Pope Pius Xth on creation of Archdiocese of Kottayam due to split between Mathew Makil and Northists...

“In support of our complaints from a social point of view, we beg to call your Holiness’ kind attention to the past history of the church in Malabar. The sudists, too low and too insignificant to be counted in the general community, were not allowed to be ordained priests; and though there were native bishops even from the time of the apostle, St Thomas, not one of them has been a sudist. The consecration of Mar Makil, a sudist is the first instance of the violation of our admitted superiority and privilege for centuries. Although later on, the sudists were allowed to be ordained as priests through the exertions of Latin bishops, there is no instance of a sudist priest governing even a northist parish. We are therefore extremely sorry that the Vatican with all its proverbial respect for the precedents would think it fit not only to deprive us of or time honoured superiority and privilege but also to subject us to the rule of a sudist bishop-which is indeed a great national insult. Our only consolation when we think of all this is , that Rome has been kept in the dark as to the true state of affairs, and that she will soon rectify this unhappy error.”

Hebrew Transliteration

What transliteration do you think would be appropriate? Knanaya is חנניה in Hebrew. While קנאי which was used previously reads Kanahi. Avalinelemar (talk) 23:11, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

==User:202.88.237.74 Vandalism==Please note that the above-mentioned user has been vandalising this page without providing an clear referenced arguments. The complaints of the user seem to be that the article needs a "critical view" section to counter the ethnic Knanaya views presented here, However the user fails to provide references about the Knanaya from other perspectives and the result is possibly unintended emotional attacks and vandalism. Besides not liking the fact that the article is from a Knanaya point of view about Knanaya "southists", the user seems to think that this is an "elitist" article where Knanaya are somehow presenting themselves as "better" in some way or another over other (non-Knanaya) Nasranis ("Northists"). However the user does not make clear where such and idea appears in the text. The User also fails to understant the use of idiom in English regarding the complement about Nasranis being "living fossils" of a now lost period of Christian history as being an insult. The user is invited to try and present calmly without resorting to personal attacks the evidence and counter evidence for his/her frustrations.149.254.61.40 (talk) 14:08, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Dear user 149.254.61.40, first of all please go through the above comment of yourself and clean all the spelling mistakes. secondly, I tried to present all historical facts one by one including DNA tests done on both knas and northists. I recently noted that you puts forwards insulting remarks and removes POVs from the article without any concensus. Vatican haven't recognised archdiocese of kottayam as 'jewish christians' as stated in the 'did you know'. diocese of kottayam was formed due to the enemity arised by Mathew makkil towards Nidherikkal kathanaar when Makkil thought knas are considered as inferior castes(sons/daughters of Vellallachettikal otherwise known as Charamkettikal) and do not possess any churches.They were also not able to marry from Northists and were forcefully obliged to marry within themself which is endogamy in kna's term(LOL). Knas now declared themself as pure jewish since jews now have a country and considered superior to Arabs. If in future, lower castes in Kerala makes their own country and declares themself superior, I am sure that Knas will claim themself as lower castes(Pulayas or parayas) as they had claimed now. Also for your knowledge, RCs doesnot promotes ethnocity and due to it there is no chance of recognising a diocese for knas only. It is you who vandalises the pages by removing appropriate links and other important facts. If you dont want to edit a specific page, please do it in your sandbox and please dont insult others for simply adding references.Also bear in mind that a wiki page is not a poster and advertisement template for knas to insult others. If you are a Kna, I politely invite you to do a DNA test which is more accurate than 'blah blah'ing your jewish claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 10:53, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

There is no such thing as Jewish race, only Jewish religion. Knanaya preserved more elements of that earlier form of religion than any other Christian sect. It seems you have a fixation on castes. Maybe you are a Hindu not a christian. If you have evidence of another christian community with more Jewish tradition than the Knanaya please present your evidence. otherwise please stop your racist vandalism removing links etc. You are the only one causing trouble on this page for more than a year now. Your links are not scientific journals they are racist discussion pages promoting hate against the Knanaya. But why do you hate so much? What happened to you? If you are a Christian then please behave like Jesus before Pilate with gentle rational behavior.81.103.121.144 (talk) 23:43, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

@81.103.121.144,

1) "Maybe you are a Hindu not a christian".It is none of your business.see who is propogating religious agenda?!!! 2) Jewish is not only a religion but a race.for the clarification you can go through the article and read about 'L3' type of genes.they provided here without citing a reliable source. 3) Sister Abhaya is not knanaya? who killed her? the culprits are also knanaya. Since you are purely the species of jesus christ,it is not a crime?!!!who avoided the links? 4) What happened to you?--->good question. I always believe in science. I saw this article and it is without any proof or validity. So I interpreted. Also you $@#$#, please provide the details of problems I caused. Is that I added links of relevance?.removed unaudited references? Please be polite to answer my questions.dont be emotional :) like other k(un)nanayas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.237.74 (talk) 11:44, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with everything you stated, 81.103.121.144. Once again, 202.88.237.74, you have fallen back to unclear statements that are difficult to decipher. Please state your arguments clearly so everyone can understand. Jews are an ethnic group not a race and Judaism is the religion. One can be of Jewish ancestry but not practice Judaism and similarly not belong to the Jewish ethnic group and practice another faith. In addition, race is a socially constructed term and changes according to the specific society, so let us avoid the use of something so loosely termed. "Like I said earlier, not every Knanaya person is Syrian Christian or even Christian in a broad sense for that matter. Furthermore, why should one individual's action represent a whole group of unrelated people? Is there a list of murder cases on the pages of other ethnic groups." Knanaya people are an ETHNICITY. Not all of them believe in Jesus. The murder case has no place in an ethnic group's page. Avalinelemar (talk) 22:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

MR/MRS Avalinelemar,

• 1) please differentiate between the race and ethnicity in your viewpoint.It is totally confusing from your statements.
• 2) how can be there a non sense term as 'Jewish christians' if jewish is not a race rather a belief?
• 3) where did I had done vandalism?(None of the fellows argued me with vandalism didnt provided any suitable answer for it :P )
• 4) what is the authority/ recorded proof of knanaya stories rather than making songs and stories from the late nineties? the reference provided in the page doesnot go to the pages they mention as the subject.only goes to some knanaya matrimony site.so I think this wikipedia page of knanaya is an index page for knanaya matrimonial sites.
• 5) I repeatedly asked you knas(charamkettikal or ash-tied ones) to provide the genetic proof rather than allegating me with vandalism. Israel allocates citizenship based on genetic tests.

There you go bi#%@, here is the proof. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8wq...SEk/edit?pli=1

In the page it is written that 'Ultimate derivation is from the root meaning of "possessive" later meaning "striker" due to renown as smiths among their Kenite ancestors shared with the Druze along with Haplogroup L (Y-DNA) ' . The specified 'L' type is the pre dominent genetics among dravidian troops in Srilanka and Tamil Nadu.(Shame upon the fellow who had written this, unknowingly provided data that they belongs to Srilanka/ Tamil Nadu and came via a ship along with knai thomman :). Unfortunately Israel doesnot recognise those possessing 'L type' Haplogroup as Jewish.You can see more details from the link itself that it is the most predominent one among kallars.(Famous poet Vairamuthu belongs to kallars and Now I came to know the similarities between any charamketti priest along with him).

• 6) as an old doubt can you clarify that why you people's female family members used to tie some (charam or Ash) at the end of the sari's end (konthala) like those does in vellallachetti(a sub group of kallars)'s female members(All fellows having IQ>0 knows that charam in older days used to wash cloths and their occupation was cleaning big peoples dress)? is it a jewish practice? Oh I forgot to say, they also practice endogamy. So I presume that kallars are the lost group of Israel :)
• I dare you fellows to provide sufficient answers to my questions rather than support each other(every Tom,DICK and Harry). Everybody says " oh I support that I support this.." but none is able to provide satisfactory answers regarding their own ancestry. I wish moderators to remove the articles without any valid reference or generally accepted proof like this knanaya article.

202.88.237.74 (talk) 09:24, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

1."Ethnicity refers to selected cultural and sometimes physical characteristics used to classify people into groups or categories considered to be significantly different from others

“A race is a biological subspecies click this icon to hear the preceding term pronounced, or variety of a species, consisting of a more or less distinct population with anatomical traits that distinguish it clearly from other races"

http://anthro.palomar.edu/ethnicity/ethnic_1.htm

Though race and ethnicity/ethnic groups are related notions, the idea of ethnicity is rooted more in the idea of social grouping, particularly by a collective nationality, tribal affiliation, kinship and descent, religious identification, language use, or specific cultural and traditional origins, whereas race is rooted in the idea of a biological classification.

“Brace has also criticized forensic anthropologists for using the controversial concept "race" out of convention when they in fact should be talking about regional ancestry. He argues that while a forensic anthropologists can determine that a skeletal remain comes from a person with ancestors in a specific region of Africa, categorizing that skeletal as being "black" is a socially constructed category that is only meaningful in the particular context of the United States, and which is not itself scientifically valid.”

C. Loring Brace, 1995. "Region Does not Mean "Race"--Reality Versus Convention in Forensic Anthropology," Journal of Forensic Sciences 40 (#2): 29-33.

2. Jews are an ethnic group NOT a race, my friend. However being Jewish and practicing Judaism are very correlated.

“The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation.”

“Converts to Judaism, whose status as Jews within the Jewish ethnos is equal to those born into it, have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

"The Jewish Problem: How To Solve It". Louis D. Brandeis, "Jews are a distinctive nationality of which every Jew, whatever his country, his station or shade of belief, is necessarily a member" (April 25, 1915), University of Louisville Louis D. Brandeis

School of Law, Retrieved on June 15, 2009

"A history of the Jewish nation: from the earliest times to the present day". Palmer, Edward Henry. 1875. D. Lothrop & Co.. Retrieved on June 15, 2009.

"How I Became a Zionist". "The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Vol. 7: Berlin Years". "The Jewish Nation is a living fact". June 21, 1921). Princeton University Press. Retrieved on June 15, 2009.

“The definition of who is a Jew varies according to whether it is being considered by Jews based on normative religious statutes, self-identification, or by non-Jews for other reasons. Because Jewish identity can include characteristics of an ethnicity, a religion, and citizenship, the definition of who is a Jew has varied, depending on whether a religious, sociological, or ethnic aspect was being considered”

Something interesting note, “Another example of the issues involved is the case of converts to Judaism who cease to practice Judaism (whether or not they still regard themselves as Jewish), do not accept or follow halakha, or now adhere to another religion. Technically, such a person remains Jewish, like all Jews, provided that the original conversion is valid.”

Sharot, Stephen, Judaism and Jewish Ethnicity: Changing Interrelationships and Differentiations in the Diaspora and Israel, in Ernest Krausz, Gitta Tulea, (eds.) Jewish survival: the identity problem at the close of the twentieth century, pp.87-104

Will Herberg, David G. Dalin, From Marxism to Judaism: the collected essays of Will Herberg, p.240

Someone can be belonging to the Jewish ethnic group but practice Christianity.

“Jewish Christians, also called Hebrew Christians, Christian Jews or Judaizers, were Early Christians who maintained Jewish religious practices, from the period of the inception of Christianity until approximately the fifth century”. Learn more at Jewish Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian.

Joan Taylor, Christians and the holy places: the myth of Jewish-Christian origins, Oxford University Press, 1993 p. 18

3. I haven’t seen any vandalism.

4. I am not sure what you mean by wedding songs. I do agree that this page needs a major cleanup. Everyone needs to discuss changes before making edits.

5. I don’t know why you stated “you knas(charamkettikal or ash-tied ones) to provide the genetic proof rather than allegating me with vandalism”. Like you and Avaline, I am not Knanaya and you shouldn’t assume that everyone here is Knanaya. I am unable to provide genetic proof.

However, my friend, Israel does NOT grant citizenship based on genetic tests. You don't need any 'Jewish' genetic proof to become an Israeli citizen via the Law of Return, because Judaism is not a race. If you convert to Judaism you can become an Israeli citizen via the Law of Return. It doesn't matter what ethnic background you come from. Furthermore family members (spouses, children) are able to obtain Israeli citizenship. Though I don't see what this has to do with Knanaya.

I agree with you. Whoever wrote that DNA summary is writing nonsense. But like I said earlier, Israel does not care about genetic proof.

I have no idea what a “kallar”, “Vairamuthu”, or “charamketti” is.

Since ethnicity is “a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy”, it can be argued that Knanaya people meet these requirements and hence an ethnic group.

Hobsbawm and Ranger (1983), The Invention of Tradition, Sider 1993 Lumbee Indian Histories

Seidner,(1982), Ethnicity, Language, and Power from a Psycholinguistic Perspective, pp. 2-3

Smith 1987 pp.21-22

Whether they are or are not Jewish. What Jewish is really hard to measure and DNA is not going to prove it. As stated earlier, “Another example of the issues involved is the case of converts to Judaism who cease to practice Judaism (whether or not they still regard themselves as Jewish), do not accept or follow halakha, or now adhere to another religion. Technically, such a person remains Jewish, like all Jews, provided that the original conversion is valid.” The Knanaya people can fail every single DNA test but use this argument.

6. While I do not understand the majority of what you stated, 202.88.237.74, I know that illogical statements, “female members(All fellows having IQ>0”, will not lead to people considering your argument seriously.

The Knanaya people reminds me of both Crypto-Judaism and Anusim.

The Bnei Menashe are a group of more than 9,000 people from India's North-Eastern border states of Manipur and Mizoram who claim descent from one of the Lost Tribes of Israel. The claim appeared after a Pentecostalist dreamt in 1951 that his people's pre-Christian religion was Judaism and that their original homeland was Israel.

The Israeli government announces that the remaining 7,200 can make Aliyah within a 1-2 year period after undergoing a conversion.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3831308,00.html

Hope I helped clear up,

- A friend from Poland

77.65.4.231 (talk) 22:22, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear friend from Poland,

Please refer the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH) type of genetic markers which was developed by israeli scientists to determine jewish identity. If knas had undergone endogamy for 2000 years and of pure jewish origin(as claimed), then their genetic pool may not be disturbed with any other genes and should contain CMH. But none of them (until now ) had tested positive for CMH and also their genetics contains only locally obtainable L Haplogroup. These facts proof that the stories of endogamy is 100% False which makes this article to be deleted immediately.
Apart from that, Wikipedia should say Sorry to World on publishing the false claim of 'Vatican recognised knas as jewish christians' :) In the front page itself.
202.88.237.74 (talk) 09:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Did you even read anything stated? DNA evidence does not equate to the Jewish identity!

Where are you pulling these claims from? Your hatred for this community unfortunately cannot be used as evidence.

- A friend from Poland

77.65.4.231 (talk) 15:06, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear A friend from Poland,
I read everything you had written. Who said DNA evidence doesnot equate jewish identity? This is not the case of hatred. This is all about bluffing whole readers of wikipedia. I stated here the need for scientific authenticity (In your terms it is not needed,only an illegal reference is needed?!!!see the knanaya in israel link :) To understand the genetics first search for Cohen Modal Haplotype in wikipedia itself and read thoroughly. kindly note that I dont mix any emotions with truth.

- A friend from India

202.88.237.74 (talk) 06:03, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

this chapter in wikepedia is total rubbish

i think before allowing this topic the wikepedia should have checked the authenticity.there is nothing like knanaya penthacost and so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.77.96.136 (talk) 16:24, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Notorious Southist Propaganda

This article is fully stupid propaganda by citing sources of dubious credibility and misrepresenation. POv is raised and editers are requested to arrive on credibility and veracity of the sources cited in the article.

Please see the earlier archived discussion: /Archive 1.

Please do not chnage the article with out consensus. EasoPothen (talk) 23:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree the name should probably be Thekkumbagar and you make some good points, however, since you call the Southist tradition about themselves "fully stupid propaganda", then I don't think you are qualified to make any neutral edits, for example you said not to make any edits without consensus but then you changed the name to Thekkumbagar without consensus (though I sort-of defend your change now unless anyone else reverts your change). If no one reverts your edits then it is proof of consensus. I actually agreed your name change last time, but it was reverted by those who did not agree, so clearly you and I were not enough for a consensus. We have had a significant amount of hate-vandalism on this page from people with the same kind of POV you seem to express, it is a good article as it stands right now with a good number of references and still just needs more references to be found and inserted. Let's just wait for other participants to come along and put in what they have before the two of us decide to make any radical changes. Please chill-out/relax have a nice cup of tea, take a deep breath to let go of everything which stresses you out and then let's continue to talk about what changes should and should not be made. :) 81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:03, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Although I reverted your edit because it did have a heavy political bias, I am systematically checking references for every individual change you made and putting them back in once verified. By the end of the day I think I will have completed a a section entitled criticisms which everything directly opposed to the article should be in. That way we can prevent political bias from seeping through the entire article.81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:15, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the term Jewish Christians which has many connotations I agree that there may be a problem with the term and that perhaps something like Judeo-Christian would be a more accurately descriptive term. I would like Robin Klein's input on this question. Is Jewish Christian an accurate enough description Robin? 81.103.121.144 (talk) 13:31, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I have again added POV for all the sections as the information in each section is propaganda material with wrong citation. Also added the clean up tag. Please do not remove them again. There are a bunch of propagandist working on putting back propaganda material in this page for several years now. In that case i will go ahead and request the intervention of an administrator. EasoPothen (talk) 06:31, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

We already requested admins to help deal with vandalism from people who do not understand the meaning of the article. There is no propaganda in this article. The article is currently being watched by several people who are vigilant against this vandal with a very strongly anti POV.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:34, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I request you to work in a sandbox if you are really interested in improving the article. What stands now is a low level propaganda material with absolute fake citation. The references given are manipulated and nothing on proper history is written in this page. The entire article need to be changed. EasoPothen (talk) 07:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I request you to work in the sandbox :) I have been doing Wiki for a very long time. All the peers are happy with the article except you and you have already proven your "anti" POV agenda. This disqualifies you from objective editing. But if you want to present the facts here first. If there is a dispute then it can be resolved here and then when consensus is arrived at it will be put into the article. That is the way it works when controversies arise.81.103.121.144 (talk) 10:31, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

There has been unresolved POV in this article for a very long time. None of the stories mentioned in this article has any supportive evidences or rather any proofs. Wikipedia is not the place to paste some diocese propaganda. I invite line by line discussion on each of the points mentions in this article. Sectional POV's are required as each section contains propaganda materials. EasoPothen (talk) 06:30, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Really feel sorry for the ill informed person, who questions the "ENDOGAMY" of Knanaya people. I can give you the details of authentic DNA tests performed on Knanaya community members. Please find the link here, https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8wq...SEk/edit?pli=1

The DNA test clearly shows that knanaya are genetically affiliated with Middle Eastern population. Please keep your bigotry to yourself.

Plz do not remove POV with out consensus: Kottayam and Chingavanam dioces propaganda

As seen in the archive discussion, Wikipedia is not the place to paste, the extremely volatile fictional content from some story tellers of Kottayam and Chingavanam diocese.Please request the vandalisers to refrain from vandalism and do not remove the POV.

I have again added POV for all the sections as the information in each section is propaganda material with wrong citation. Also added the clean up tag. Please do not remove them again. There are a bunch of propagandist working on putting back propaganda material in this page for several years now. In that case i will go ahead and request the intervention of an administrator.

EasoPothen (talk) 06:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

An early example of faking

I posted the following comment earlier. Each sectional POV's are required since the article is corrupted with propaganda. It has also used the name of some book authors for manipulation.

This is the opening sentence of this article: Thekkumbagar/Knanaya or more accurately Q'nanaya, (Heb:קנאים, Malayalam: ക്നാനായ, Syriac:ܛܢܢܐ, Ar:قينان) from Kerala, India, are a Jewish Christian people of early endogamous Kenite descent.

The references given are Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. All of these are fake references. Some one pasted their propaganda and for authenticity faked the sources as Menachery G. 1973, 1998; Vellian Jacob 2001; Weil,S. 1982; Podipara, Placid J. 1970. In fact there are many scholars who have written about Southists but none of them are cited either correctly or wrongly.EasoPothen (talk) 06:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Talk on consensus

I propose the opening statement as follows:

"Tekkumbhagar or Thekkumbagar or Southists ( also known with recently concatenated name Knanaya) are a group of Christians in South India who follow endogamy. Since 1910 and 1911, they form separate dioceses in Jacobite Syrian Christian Church and Syro Malabar Church. Some of them also has joined Protestant and Pentecostal churches in recent years"

I also propose the following sections for the article:

1. Early History 2. Split of the Community 3. Syro Malabar Church Southists 4. Syriac Orthodox Southists 5. Special Customs 6. Controversies

The content of each of these sections can be discussed by editors with valid citation and reference.68.145.213.14 (talk) 06:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Parochial and partisan view

I'm not concerned as far as you fabricate your own communities history, but please don't try to manipulate entire Syrian Christian history to satisfy your vicious egos. Please don't come across the Nazarani Traditions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.248.72.195 (talk) 08:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

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File:Abhay.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Margan David

Magan David or the Star of David has been in use as a symbol of Judaism since the 17th century. It was not a symbol of the Jews in AD 345. So it was impossible for the Knanaya people to sail by a ship under this flag in AD 345. The file Star of David, in this article should be removed and the article needs to be corrected.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:34, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Magen David an anachronism

Magen David (Shield of David) is the symbol most commonly used by Judaism today, though this came to popular practice only in the seventeenth century. For more details, see articles related to Star of David or Magen David. There is no chance for Knanaya people to sail under this flag in AD 345 (fourth century) under the leadersip of Knai Thomman. So, this symbol and related explanations are removed from this article.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:46, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

You are 100% about that statement. The Magen David was not used until the 17th century. However, the Knanaya mythology states that they did use the symbol. Mythologies are not true. The inaccuracies within the Knanaya migration myth is explained afterward. I used the image to represent the Knanaya oral legends. While it may not be true, it provides an insight to what the people believe. TheReclaimist (talk) 19:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Knanaya Traditoins

Passover- Knanaya Catholics truthfully do celebrate passover or "Pesaha", on the night of passover the head of the house the (father or grandfather) remove dried palm leafs (that were in the shape of the cross) from the Pesaha Appam and cut the Pesaha Appam while saying prayers. Soon after the Pesaha Appam is mixed with the Pesaha Syrup and is split between the family.

Endogamy- Today amoung the Knanaya Catholics you can find many individuals or even families that have traits of white skin as in (Caucasian)and auburn hair. Have Knanayas always been endogamous? Who knows but at least we know for a fact that they have for a good 50-100 years.

Marriage- A Knanaite who marries outside his or her community (not necessarily outside his or her Church) is no longer considered to be of the community. If the spouse-to-be is a Knanaite of the other Knanaite Church (either Syriac Jacobite or Syro-Malabar Catholic) that is acceptable. (knowledge all first hand experience , visit to a Knanaya Catholic Church in Houston Texas) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.89.62.248 (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

When did the above customs started? Like the battleship galactica happened by having 72 families from israel landed at cranganore or quilon or after the 'Thekkumbhagasamudhayam' published?!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.204.114.8 (talk) 09:14, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Rewrite

This article needs a total rewrite. It currently states the claims of Jewish origin as if it were a fact, when this is only one of many variant (and often spurious) claims that exist. The current state is not acceptable.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:40, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I've made a start toward cleaning up the article, adding necessary citations and replacing uncited or inadequately cited material.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:09, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

In response to the anonymous editor who reverted my changes without comment, what exactly is the problem? All the material I added was cited to reliable sources, which is more than can be said about what it replaced.Cúchullain ^t/c 22:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I have not read in depth the cited content yet but, hey, if it is sourced then it simply must be better than the unsourced stuff that preceded it. Yes, there might be a few quibbles around the edges but the only valid reason to revert the article would be if all of the sources were fake references. And I can tell you this much: they are not. My knowledge of this subject area is somewhat less than that of Cuchullain but I am learning rapidly that the entire "Jews in India" issue has been massively skewed across numerous articles. It is time that the POV, the misrepresentation and the outright calumnies are fixed, just as I have been doing more generally across hundreds of India caste/community articles. Feel free to discuss, obviously, but please also note that I will revert on sight any unexplained removals of cited content. - Sitush (talk) 00:19, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

First of all, what you wrote is very poorly written. Example, "The first known writte=n evidence for a division in the Saint Thomas Christian community dates to the 16th century, when Portuguese colonial officials took notice of it." Please at least use spell check first. Furthermore, this entire article relies on one source, Swiderski. The simmilarities between Cochin Jews and Knanaya noted by Weil have been removed among other sources. It's misleading to state that Malayalam is the spoken language by the majority when the majority live outside of India. To group all Knanaya as Christians (Even that is incorrect, no mention of Knanaya Greek Orthodox? Knanaya Jehovah's Witness? Knanaya Pentacostal?) is also misleading. Im ata Yehudi, ata yodea ma omerti. Ani lo ohev et antisemitic beze. Knanaya anashim mevean ivrit, arabit veanglit. Atsuv meod. The Christian bias in this article is too much. - Southernseals90 (talk) 13:51, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I've corrected Sitush's minor spelling error. It's telling that you try to portray one very minor spelling error as somehow worse than what appeared in the article before, considering its previous deplorable state. Additionally, focusing on (potential) errors in the infobox is not going to make your case that the previous, poorly cited version was somehow preferable. The several sources I added are all reliable; we are of course open to disussing how to include other sources so long as they too are actually reliable. However, personal comments, edit wars, and tendentious editing will not be tolerated.Cúchullain ^t/c 20:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I am on record as being in need of a new keyboard, and indeed I have a Dell 1545 k/b on order. Sorry for the typo but, hey, spellchecks do not work across the many variants of English. "Simmilarities" - is that correct in any English variant? <g> - Sitush (talk) 01:31, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Black Jews

There is more evidence that the Knanayas are Black/Yemeni Jews. I think this article should state mythical history and actual history. TheReclaimist (talk) 17:26, 01 October 2011 (UTC) Dear TheReclaimist,

I would like to know more details on the evidences put forward. But I have a history (may be a story) which got from the orthodox syrian father during my surprise visit to thiruvithamcode arapally.They are summurized as below.

1) During his missionary travel to India, St.Thomas converted some jews and natives. He preached on ports from palayoor to madras. He was believed to preach in hebrew, where only traders comprising high profile peoples and jews were only know that language.

2) During his visit to Madras(said by father as thoothukudi) one group of people, know as vellallachettikal, who was converted to jewism by jewish missionaries before the arrival of St.Thomas was also converted to christianity. (We had to admit their jewish claims). Vellallachettikal are also now known as Vellalla gauders, who was recently in the news for including them by state govt of Kerala in Scheduled Tribe category. Since Vellallachettikal was very orthodox in nature, they attacked new converts to christianity. They fled from Madras(Say the port presently in Tamilnadu (unknown port), during the reign of mammallan) and was admitted at Thiruvithamcode and settled there by St.Thomas.

3) After 3 centuries, due to some unknown reason, most probably war(it was not disclosed by father) they were left to a port in kerala (some say kollam, others kodungallor) in sailing boats, not via land(because there were enemies in land?!!!). When they landed in kerala, they were not allowed to enter Syrian churches.(Remember recently also Mar Mathew Makkil, who was a southist was not allowed to sit before Bishops of changanassery). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.93.111.243 (talk) 12:45, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Other myth of knanaya are the people from GOA. Who are in nasranis are syrian christians who are syrians by mother side or father side which are mixed with converts and Goa portughese people knew what to do to see syrian christians and Portughese started to marry more syrian featured people or look like muslim like people or arabic features and what happened these goans people basically collected and they created a community.once they hijacked and emerged to become claim like we are pure syrians other one is there were higher class brahimns and nairs invited to go to a marriage and few members of each families decided to go for the marriage. once they attented the marriage everybody being a group and stated to go back to their home. once they reached the home, elders in those people did not let them inside because they suspect all these people ate meat. and they got seperated and end up merged with christian community and those people only marry to their own group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.187.166.108 (talk) 04:19, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Too general to say that Knanaya Catholics are apart of the Syro-Malabar Church

It is too general to say that Knanaya Catholics are apart of the Syro-Malabar Church. While in many places outside of India, for example in the US. Knanaya Catholic churches fall under the jurisdiction of Bishop Mar Jacob Agnadiath of Syro-Malabar Church for administrative purposes, in India Knanaya Catholics fall under the jurisdiction of the Diocese of Kottayam. A distinct diocese from the Syro-Malabar diocese in India. As their distinct identity and practices were acknowledged by the Vatican under Pope Pius X, by establishing in 1911 a separate vicariate apostolic under the Syro Malabar Church for the Knanaya Jewish Christians, named the Knanaya Catholic Vicariate Apostolic of Kottayam. It was elevated to an eparchy by Pope Pius X in his Bull “Universi Christiani” in 1923 and to an metropolitan archeparchy in 2005. While they practices the same Eastern rite as the Syro-Malabar church, the dioceses are distinctly different. I feel this generality arises due to modern day interchangeability between the word "church" and "diocese" and I believe the edit I made address the union of the Knanaya Catholics and Syro-Malabar Catholics with loosing key piece of differentiating information of unique identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurianjimmy11 (talk • contribs) 18:29, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Is the eparchy not under the jurisdiction of the Major Archbishop of the Syro-Malabar Church? Either way we need to make the distinction clear using reliable sources.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:27, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Citation issues

Does anyone have an objection to converting the current citation style? I rather use {{sfn}} here because it "bounces" the linkage, ie: from the ^[2] to the "Neill (2000), p. 52." and then through to the bibliographic entry. Basically, it improves clarity and reduces the possibility of errors creeping in.

Also, can someone please explain which source is Swiderski 1998a and which is 1988b. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 11:12, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

No objection from me on converting the sources. Swiderski 1988a is "Northists and Southists: A Folklore of Kerala Christians"; Swiderski 1988b is Blood Weddings: The Knanaya Christians of Kerala.Cúchullain ^t/c 12:19, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Montages

Photo Montages are no logner allowed for ethnic groups? Sorry, this is new to me. The majority of ethnic group pages seem to have them - Malayalis, Tibetans, Tamils, Kurds, Greeks, etc. Greeknaite (talk) 9:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

You have slightly misunderstood. Please see User:Sitush/Common#Montages. - Sitush (talk) 13:42, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I apologize, English is not my first language. But, I am still not understanding. Can you calrify? Greeknaite (talk) 17:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

No problem, although I doubt that I can make it any simpler, sorry.

Indian ethnic articles are quite a messy and contentious area here. Their problematic nature has caused them to be placed under sanctions. While such sanctions are not unique to this group of articles, they do reflect that they are something of a "special case". As things stand, there is a consensus among people who have expressed interest in India-related matters that montages/groups of photos of people in India-related community articles are far more trouble than they are worth and frequently lead to policy breaches etc. The fact that this is not problematic in other areas (as per your examples) is just one of those things.

It is possible that this consensus needs ratification by the wider Wikipedia community and for that reason there is a request for comment in place, as noted on my explanatory page linked above. You are welcome to participate in that discussion but, for now at least, the consensus is that montages should not be present. - Sitush (talk) 13:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Recent edits

The recent reverts by anonymous editors today are re-inserting some spelling errors and inferior wording, as well as the photo montage which has been removed per discussion above. Revert warring is not appropriate. Please engage in discussion here on the talk page.Cúchullain ^t/c 15:45, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Passover

Knanaya continue to celebrate Passover very privately without inviting any Christian friend to share the Holy Meal, in accordance with Exodus 12:45.[12]

more than half of thekubagam do not celibate pesaha actually its a Syrian catholic custom any way fun to read this fantasy:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.37.184 (talk) 23:31, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

actually i am knanaya and all of my family on both sides including very distant relatives that i know of celebrate that. It is a custom introduced by knanaya but taken by locals — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.237.160 (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Fake references

As I have suspected after reading some parts of the article, many references are simply forged by the author/s. Here are some that can only be traced to other wikipedia articles and their mirrors:

1. Jessay, P.M. (1986) "The Wedding Songs of the Cochin Jews and of the Knanite Christians of Kerala: A Study in Comparison." Symposium.
2. Koder, S. (1973) "History of the Jews of Kerala".The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India,Ed. G. Menachery.
3. Puthiakunnel, Thomas. (1973) "Jewish colonies of India paved the way for St. Thomas", The Saint Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India, ed. George Menachery, Vol. II., Trichur.
4. Weil, S. (1982) "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cananite Christians and Cochin Jews in Kerala. in Contributions to Indian Sociology, 16.

Furthermore, reference #18 "Weil,S. 1982; Jessay, P.M. 1986; Menachery G; 1973, 1998; Thomas Puthiakunnel 1973; Vellian Jacob 2001; Koder S. 1973; Vellian, J 1988" is not appropriate. References should contain at least the ISBN and the page number. If no one objects I will remove those references and the passages supposed to be supported by them.--Rafy talk 01:40, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Given the current poor state of those sections, and of various related articles, I support removing anything that can't be reasonably verified. However, I can confirm that the Shalva Weil source is real:[1] However, I do not have access to it, and unfortunately this work has been misused on Wikipedia (for example see here.) George Menachery's Saint Thomas Christian Encyclopedia does exist and has been cited in academic works, but it is evidently a self-published work by Menachery, which limits its usefulness here. A lot of the problematic material regarding the Saint Thomas Christians on Wikipedia appears to originate with nasrani.net. It's really too bad.Cúchullain ^t/c 03:00, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

1. appears possibly to be an unpublished paper from a symposium - see the note here
2. definitely exists and is referred to in, for example, this
3. also exists, eg: this
4. exists as a part of Thomas H. Timberg (Ed.), Jews in India (New York- London: Advent Books, 1986), pp. 177-204 and the journal version is cited by numerous other academics, eg: here

Given this, I presume that by "fake" you meant that the references do not support the statements. This happens, of course, but to make the statement you must have access to the sources.

The bundled citation that you object to is most certainly not how I would do things, but your rationale for removal is inappropriate - just fix the citation using the info in the more complete cites found elsehwere in the article and (probably) with some attention to WP:CITEKILL. - Sitush (talk) 03:22, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Where there's no page number in an obscure work, verification is difficult. I too suspect that a lot of the information has been obscured or exaggerated from the sources.Cúchullain ^t/c 03:32, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, so do I. But the more good faith approach would be to insert {{Pn}} tags etc for a while. My main point here, however, is that to make such a bold statement Rafy must have read these obscure sources. Removing something just because it may be difficult to verify the source is not usually a valid action. As you know, I would be happy to see all Menachery and nasrani.net references removed from all articles relating to these groups (except where they support statements about Menachery or nasrani.net) but I am not sure that we have consensus to do so either locally or at WP:RSN. - Sitush (talk) 03:52, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I think there are enough reasons to assume bad faith here. One article that have been recently deleted also use fake references for a Knanya-Greek beauty queen. There are attempts by some wikipedians to emphasise the "Jewishness" of some Christian leaders of the Knanya community by adding funny looking Hebrew names to them such as here and here. I read above as well that others have complained about reference abuse.

The references provided by Sitush concern the Cochin Jewry which may or may not be related to the Knanyas. Anyway, there are tons of reliable and easily verifiable informations about st. Thomas Christians, so I don't understand why do we have to rely on dubious references that are almost impossible to verify.--Rafy talk 14:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Eh? I have provided no references, merely links that show the refs that you mentioned are not "fake" in the sense of being non-existent. Now, have you read those sources or not? - Sitush (talk) 14:43, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

BTTW, I may have tracked Jessay down to a printed document. In Kollaparambil, Jacob (1992), "The Babylonian origin of the Southists among the St. Thomas Christians", Orientalia Christiana analecta, Pontificium Institutum Orientalium Studiorum, 241, Pont. Institutum Studiorum Orientalium, ISBN 9788872102893 there is a footnote referring to it as "J. Vellian, Symposium, part II, no.3. 67". We need to hit WP:RX, I think. - Sitush (talk) 14:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

A bundle of references (Weil,S. 1982; Jessay, P.M. 1986; Menachery G; 1973, 1998; Thomas Puthiakunnel 1973; Vellian Jacob 2001; Koder S. 1973; Vellian, J 1988) is used to show that certain traditions are directly descendant from Judaism. Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that the Holy Qurbana is related to the Syriac term for Eucharest,[2] betrothal prior to marriage is very common in Orthodox Christianity,[3], marriage under a canopy is taken from Hindu traditions,[4], ceremonial bathing is a Syrian Christian tradition,[5] and burials facing east is common in Christianity?[6][7]

After all the Knanyas have been Christian for more than 15 centuries while the controversial Jewish period shouldn't have lasted more than 2-3 centuries at most. Extraordinary claims require clear references so I will remove the paragraph in question if no better sources are provided.--Rafy talk 21:20, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I would not object to removing that paragraph on the grounds that it's dubious material attributed to an incomplete citation that is very unlikely ever to be completed. However, from what I can deduce it does sound like something that would appear in the Weill work at least. Other material cited to those incomplete citations is not controversial, such as the dates Knanaya dioceses were created in the Orthodox and Catholic churches.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:53, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Merchant ship figure

The figure "A colonial era Knanaya merchant ship" looks suspiciously like a 74 or 80 gun double decked ship of the line. Could you please give a reference for this figure, please? The navies of the Keralite kingdoms had access only to smaller ships and if the Knanaya merchants had such powerful ships, then they could have become the second Kunjalis in Kerala history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.225.151 (talk) 07:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it looks pretty dubious. They probably should be removed.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:53, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Even the paint pattern is that of British ships of the line. Admittedly the East Indiamen of the British East India Company used similar paint patterns, but I doubt any of those, possibly the biggest western-style merchantmen in those waters, boasted two gundecks. I've removed the image. While we're at it, I have similar doubts about the other ship image, "A West Asian or Greek styled Knanaya ship sailing from Kodungallur" - that looks suspiciously like an ancient warship (maybe a liburna), not a merchantman. Two rows of oars and the prow made for ramming are clearly visible. I seriously doubt such ships were used by the Knanaya. Huon (talk) 22:18, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Population

I believe the population listed is wrong. It says in the summary there are 50,000 Knanayas in India and elsewhere, while in the small table it says c.200,000? Why does it say that? Here is a link for the total number of Knanaya Catholics from a survey taken by the Syro Malabar Church (View Kottayam Diocese). I am not sure how many Knanaya Jacobites there are.

http://www.syromalabarchurch.in/syro-malabar-church-at-a-glance.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 18:55, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Erwin Fahlbusch's Encyclopedia of Christianity says there are about 300,000 Knanayas. I'll change the article accordingly and add the source. Huon (talk) 21:32, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Customs

Please do not delete the newly added marriage/funeral/other customs section. This information is straight from the Knanaya Kottayam Archdiocese official website. http://kottayamad.org/knanaya-tradition/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 05:55, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the material had to be removed. Wikipedia requires material to be verifiable by reliable sources. The archdiocese website won't be enough for all that material.Cúchullain ^t/c 13:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Besides, Wikipedia is not a dictionary, and much of that was just dictionary definitions without context or interpretation. Huon (talk) 14:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi may these customs the Archdiocese has mentioned be entered into the document? It seems it has been updated. Please note these are from the official website of the Knanaya Catholic Archdiocese of Kottayam. http://kottayamad.org/knanaya-tradition/

Wikipedia content should be based on the coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. I don't think the Archdiocese website is subject to editorial oversight, and while it may serve as a source for the Archdiocese's own opinions, for such customs I'd say we should better rely on scholarly textbooks on religion, sociology or anthropology than on the website of a religious group. Huon (talk) 01:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Traditions and customs Section

Please do not delete this section, I am a Knanaya Catholic and i added it myself. All of you non-Knanayas may have problems with our history and our practice of endogamy but please we truly practice these traditions and customs listed just go to any Knanaya Wedding or other event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 04:15, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Wikipedia can't accept original research such as this. All material needs to be verifiable through reliable sources. If you have such sources, we can discuss how to add the material.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:54, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes I have reliable resources, from the official Knanaya Congress of the Middle East Website, The official site of a Knanaya Church and the official website of The Knanaya Kottayam Archdiocese. I would like you to take note that the Knanaya history written by many random users on here is completely different from that written on the official website of the Knanaya Kottayam Archdiocese and also that of the official website of the Knanaya Catholic Congress of North America.

Sources-

• http://www.kccme.com/history.html
• http://portal.stjosephsknanayachurch.com/stjosephs/KnanayaTraditions/KnanayaCustoms.aspx
• http://www.kottayamad.org/history.htm
• http://www.kccna.com/node.php?id=2

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

While that's not itself an endorsement of the current article text, the official website of an organization is not a reliable source on that organization's history - at least not if those claims might be controversial. After all, the official website almost by definition has a bias. Huon (talk) 01:01, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

So let me get this straight, random users on Wikipedia have a more accurate idea of Knanaya History than Kottayam Knanaya Catholic Archdiocese and Chingavnam Knanaya Jacobite Archdiocese? These users have a more accurate say, than a diocese created by His Holiness Pope St.Pius X and a diocese created by the Holy Syriac Orthodox Church? From this wiki talk page that is what it seems like. If such great organizations such as the Catholic Church and the Syriac Orthodox Church accept the Knanaya history of the diocese' it should supersede that of people who think they know the history of Knanaya Christians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.34.235.47 (talk) 01:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

That's not what I said. But our current "history" and various "traditions" sections are based on scholarly publications, partly articles in peer-reviewed journals, partly books from reputable publishers. Those sources have a more accurate idea of Kanaya history that the archdioceses. And while I don't know all that much about the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church is hardly known for fact-checking and accuracy. Huon (talk) 07:36, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

First off, you're being far to dismissive. The churches, Catholic or Syriac Orthodox, can be reliable, depending on the use, particularly for their own opinions. In a case like this, church publications could be useful sources for the local customs of their own members. However, academic sources are superior if they cover the same thing (and we already have several), and of course we can't accept any original research. So far as I can tell the links above don't have much detail and don't corroborate most of what was in that edit.Cúchullain ^t/c 12:44, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Indeed churches can be reliable sources for their own opinion and for their own beliefs. But the sources given above talk about historical events in 345 AD - on that they are not reliable sources. Furthermore, two of those websites are US-based, a third based in Qatar. For all I can tell, they are not the official websites of the archdioceses. The fourth apparently is indeed the official website of the Roman Catholic organization responsible for the Knanaya, but firstly, Pius X didn't create a diocese but an Apostolic Vicariate, so apparently 99.34.235.47 didn't even reproduce the modern history correctly; secondly, it doesn't discuss Knanaya customs anyway. The text we had was actually based on the "Europe Region of the Knanaya Archdiocese", where "based" means it's a copyright violation. At the very best that's a self-published source that should be used with caution. At worst it's stuff somebody made up and posted on the web. I'm not sure I could tell the difference. Huon (talk) 14:52, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The sources: http://www.kottayamad.org/history.htm http://www.kccna.com/node.php?id=2 http://www.kccme.com/history.html

In my opinion all are well verified, KCCNA is the Knanaya Catholic Congress of the North America, which every Knanaya Catholic in the U.S is a member of and which all of our churches belong too. We no longer pledge allegiance to the Syro Malabar Diocese of Chicago because they no longer honor our traditions and customs. KCCME is the same as KCCNA except that of the middle east. Kottayamad is our the official website of our archdiocese. I gave you the two sources KCCNA and Kottyamad that links to our correct history and not provided by Knanaya hating Northists. I gave you the other two links to give a list of our traditions and customs. I do not see any other way i can show that the customs and traditions are true. But I would think you could believe an actual Knanaya Catholic. There is a video on youtube that shows all these customs being explained by our previous bishop His Holiness Mar Kuriakose Kunnacherry but it is in Malayalam so I do not know if you can understand. This video was brought to us by our Monsignor Vicar General Fr. Velliyan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEN1UW86xdI — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tthom48 (talk • contribs) 00:04, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Mr Tthom48, Even aboriginals in kerala have their own customs like you.But seeing the face of the Rev.Fathers of your Archdiocese of Kottayam, you fellows are stil claiming for the jewish lineage?!!!!Poor felows...(Appeal to any southist especially in Chicago, Kindly dont delete my comment) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.221.149.7 (talk) 10:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Please explain how that is supposed to aid in improving the article. Huon (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

It is very important huon, since the whole article is fabricated.Some fellows from a lower caste who was undergoing endogomy converted to christian faith and fabricated a new story as 'Knanaya' to make superior themself from other sections in community. It was believed by many people until their genetic results were out recently.Tell me huon, doesn't it make aid in deleting the article itself?!!!!

117.207.160.163 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:49, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, even if their ideological foundation were made up, the Knanaya would probably still be a notable group. They would hardly be the first to invent some sort of mythical history to feel superior - would you hold the Aeneis against our article on Rome? And much of the article's content relies not on what happened in the first millennium AD, but on the present, supported by reliable, independent sources. Do you have any reliable sources supporting your claims about the Knanaya's origin? Huon (talk) 17:33, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Huon, How knanaya would probably a notable group? is it because one fellow known as Thomas chazhikadan wrote a book known as "Thekkumbhagasamudhayam" and translated into english as "The syrian colonisation of kerala" ?or through it he claimed himself and his community superior to other christians in kerala by pseudo endogamy? everytime if we provides some valid proof (such as genetic reports) somebody (whose ip addresses had been traced to chicago and kottayam) repeatedly reverts the edits of the talk pages.ok,huon, will you please provide a significant landmark,ie reference of knanaya(southist) claim, example: copper plate provided by cheraman perumal. I can provide you the genetic results of knanaya people having the facts that they belongs to the same category of Ezhavas or Vellalagowders with paternal lineage. The problem is that when I am submitting somebody just reverts the url. 117.204.115.29 (talk)

They're notable because there are many independent, reliable sources about them. The credibility or otherwise of their origin tradition is irrelevant to their notability.Cúchullain ^t/c 13:57, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

May I have atleast a reliable source you said?!!!117.207.162.212 (talk) 11:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

There are a number of reliable sources already used in the article.Cúchullain ^t/c 13:17, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

So the majority is Unreliable? you just admitted that :)

117.204.116.225 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:33, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

A Remphasis on Neutrality

I would like to put a remphasis on neutrality when it comes to additions and subtractions to this page in specific. One can see several examples of individual opinions and hate mongering with in the talk pages and the the actual wiki page itself. I would like to remind everyone that we are attempting to further academic knowledge here. This is not a platform for people spew their opinions and for individuals to go on rants. This goes for inividuals on both sides of the issue. I understand that it is difficult to find clear and non-diluted facts and historical references for such an obscure topic, but that doesn't mean that it gives individuals an oppertunity to destroy the credibilty of the wiki page. To say that an entire ethnic group history is completly fabricated and thefore invalid is an very extreme proposition. A majority of the arguements for deletion of this page and aswell as addtions/subtractions of this page have been founded on unsound facts and clearly biased opinions. I also agree on the flip side of the arguement that several facts and references about the exact history of the Knanaya people do not use strong sources. This is because of the lack of sources that other topics have the luxury of having. This means that the process of finding credible sources becomes harder, but is not an excuse for individuals to put in their own fabricated facts and biased opinions. This wiki article in no way means needs to be deleted but rather an needs a very thorough examination and evalution of that facts and sources that the article uses.

Kurianjimmy11 (talk) 21:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Template: Top Lie Class articles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.204.114.8 (talk) 09:19, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Good I guess Mr.Kurianjimmy1 is not an individual rather a department in himself :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.204.116.225 (talk) 11:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Knanaya History

Can the history not be taken from this scholarly article from The Pontifical Institute of Alwaye? This is a greatly sited source. [url]http://scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:SGTgISp-YuEJ:scholar.google.com/+knanaya&hl=en&as_sdt=0,44[/url] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.95.63 (talk) 01:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Recent edits March 2013

I've reverted a number of undiscussed changes largely made by PalakkappillyAchayan. The edits excised a lot of well-cited material, and altered other material in ways that were directly contradicted in the sources. Most notably, Frykenberg, Baum & Winkler, and Swiderski do not say that the Knanaya trace their decent to Thomas of Cana and an "Indian concubine"; these sources specifically say they trace their decent to Thomas of Cana and his Syrian immigrants.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

So called Fake references

Just wanted to point out that at least one of the so called fake references does exist (Weil 1982: Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: the Cnanite Christians and the Cochin Jews of Kerala): http://cis.sagepub.com/content/16/2/175.citation — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.4.44 (talk) 01:27, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we already cleared up that it's real. However, we couldn't verify that the article text was citing it accurately; that work has been misused at other Wikipedia articles before.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Chaaram Kettykal

Knanaya Christians are also called Chaaram Kettykal (Require citation). There are ample evidences for this. Therefore it must be added to the lead section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.231.114.172 (talk) 13:52, 21 March 2013 (UTC)