Talk:Kuji-in

anime otaku are KILLING wikipedia, vandalising any articles with anything to do with asian culture, ESPECIally Japan, and insisting that everything has something to do with Sailor Moon.

STOP IT! If you MUST insert a sailor moon, schoolgirl soldier, or princess twinkle reference, please put it in a trivia section. --Sunawave 05:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)sunawave

Amen Brotha! Yipely 20:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to add the romanisation of each character to the description of each mudra for easier reference.

Mantra

User Fornitm added the long mantra to two of the Kuji. Hopefully they'll add one for each of the kuji, since I can't seem to find those anywhere. They'd be very helpful to the article--even moreso than the illustrations. Nagakura shin8 01:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Bigoted edits which I reverted

User 211.3.117.168 removed all data about the kuji-in in Korea, saying, "Neither Shingon Buddhism nor Korean Shamanism are related." Aside from being bad grammar (one would actually say "they are not related to each other"), this isn't true. Korean Shamanism is heavily influenced by Buddhism, and Korean Buddhism has a great deal of Vajrayana influence--in many ways, it's more Vajrayana than it is Mahayana, though it still calls itself Seon (=Chan/Zen, a branch of Mahayana). There are Korean forms of the Kuji-in (the Gujain, in Korean), and however much he might want to deny it, they are likely to be of interest to the reader.

Besides, Shingon Buddhism comes from the Chinese branch of Tantric Buddhism, which also influenced Korean Buddhism. That'd be why the Kuji-in are also, or were also, found in China.

I suspect the changes were due to anti-Japanese bias. Whatever the Japanese did during the war, there are connections between the two countries that won't just go away. Nagakura shin8 07:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

OK . Then, please present evidence.

This cantrip of nine characters was designed in China. And, when this Magic Word was spread to Japan, priests in Japan added Mudra. As a result, Kuji-In was completed.

Recently, Japanese Anime Naruto was broadcast in South Korea. As a result, the South Korean is insisting that the South Korea culture on Kuji-In. --Azukimonaka 14:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, first off, I'm American, not Korean, and your response indicates you either didn't read what I just said, or (I lean toward this interpretation) don't speak English well at all.

I actually have very little tolerance for South Korea's historical revisionism (which is far more egregious than Japan's), and your edit was so ridiculous I thought you were a South Korean ultra-nationalist. They have a tendency to try and distance themselves from Japan whenever possible, and, failing that, to try to take credit for Japan's achievements (as, for instance, the ridiculous claim that Koreans invented modern kendo). I find that kind of thing just as annoying as you do.

So imagine my surprise to find it was a Japanese ultra-nationalist. As an American semi-nationalist, let me say: you obviously don't know anything about Korea, or Buddhism, and precious little about Japan, if you think Japanese priests added the mudra to the Kuji-in. As far as I'm aware, there were no mudra native to Japan; they don't show up until Buddhism came in. Yes, there were mantra of sorts (the kotodama) in Shinto, but unless the clapping of hands counts, all mudra-practice in Japanese religion is an import from India via China and Korea. Several of the Kuji-mudra derive from the mudra of Mahavairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai), especially "Retsu"--it is, in fact, the Mahavairocana mudra. In what universe is "Mahavairocana" a Japanese, or Korean, word? (It's Sanskrit).

I've seen references to the Guja-in in Korean sources before Naruto ever came out. I've even seen a few of them in Shamanic rituals...which I think might be a titch older than Naruto, don't you? Very probably, Korean Buddhism (which is, in relation to Shamanism, roughly as Japanese Buddhism is to Shinto) learned the practice from the same place as Lord Kukai, since Korean Buddhism, as I said above, is a hybrid of Seon (Zen) and Shingon practice. Meaning, ultimately, they may well have learned it from Kukai himself. Nagakura shin8 18:45, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Please write the name of the priest who concretely used Kuji-In or the record. Is it recited as "Rin/Pyou/Tou/Sha/Kai/Chin/Retsu/Zai/Zen"?

And, Korean Buddhism lost power at the Yi dynasty. The Confucianism was esteemed at the Yi dynasty.

When Japan and China began exchanging in the seventh century, obsoleting became the Korean Buddhism in Japan. The Korea Buddhism did not influence Japan at all when becoming the eighth century.

When Japan annexed Korea, a large amount of cultures of Japan were imported by Korea. Perhaps, Kuji-In might have been imported at this time.

I just noticed this debate. The Koreans' recent claim like "Kuji-in was invented by Korean" is just because of popularity of Ninja culture and anime. This sort of attitude is very typical in Korea. When the movie Last Samurai came out, they said Samurai were brought from Korea. When anime "Hikaru no go" was popular in Korea, they said Go(Weigi) was invented by Korean. --Harada 3nosuke 15:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I just found evidence that at least the Mudra for "Retsu/Yeol" was found in Korean art, in the Unified Silla era:

The earliest extant images of the Vairocana Buddha with the wisdom-fist mudra appear in the mid-eighth century in Korea, earlier than the images in the Tantric mandala of the Shingon sect in Japan or the Vairocana images in Chinese temples. The images present quite exciting problems to Korean art historians and Buddhologists. The Vairocana Buddha images with the wisdom-fist mudra were very popular in Korea during the Unified Silla and Koryo periods, without developing into the fully Esoteric Buddhist context. It seems to be a unique type of image developed in Korea in which the tenets of the three important sects (the Avatamsaka, Tantric, Son [meditation] sect) intermingled

How's that for some proof? Nagakura shin8 06:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

"found in Korean art, in the Unified Silla era" let us see that please.You can write with Chinese characters. --Harada 3nosuke 14:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't understand what you want. I can't write it in Chinese characters, the source is a paper from a Western scholarly association.

I meant "Original text", almost all the ancient historical records in both Japan and Korea were written in classical chinese. Of course you can just post the link to them. And I would like to know how Kuji-in was called in Korean in those days? What denomination in Korea used the Kuji-in goshinhou? --Harada 3nosuke 08:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

And anyway, you and Azukimonaka seem to think I said Koreans originated the Kuji-in. I didn't. I said the kuji-practice was also found in Korea. I don't know why; maybe the the Koreans adopted it via Onmyoudo, a version of which was also practiced in Korea. Nagakura shin8 16:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Nagakura, please do not make a mess before you present the historical record.The link you posted don't have any Kuji-in.--Harada 3nosuke 09:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

No, but it refers to the Wisdom Fist Mudra, which is the Mudra of Mahavairocana and one of the Kuji-in--Retsu. Or in other words, it does have one of the Kuji-in. I don't read Classical Chinese; I doubt you do; such an "original text would count as Original Research, since I'm not qualified to interpret it, and even if I was I'd have to make references to other published materials. SO instead of using things that absolutely cannot count as Wikipedia sources, I've used things that can. Nagakura shin8 19:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Please do not use the link as a source because it didn't contain Kuji-in as you said. And you have not answered my questions yet. You are just posting Korean pronunciation of Rin (臨), Pyō (兵), Tō (闘), Sha (者), Kai (皆), Jin (陣), Retsu (列), Zai (在), Zen (前). When Koreans copy Japanese stuffs such as Kendo(Korean Kumdo), Aikido(Korean Hapkido), Kenpo(Korean Kumbup) they just use Korean pronunciations of same Chinese characters because it's easy way to deceive non-east asians. If you are really sure that Koreans used Kuji-in in their history, why can't you answer my questions? Why they didn't keep it and suddenly it appeared in 21st century?--Harada 3nosuke 13:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Gee, maybe because Buddhism was a persecuted religion in Korea for 300 years?

And the link may not have the kuji-in in their modern form, but it does mention a Korean appearance of the Wisdom Fist mudra, probably the most important of the bunch, since it's the mudra of Mahavairocana Buddha himself. Mudra=mantra=mandala; the presence of one essentially proves the presence of the other two. You'd understand why the presence of the mudra served as evidence for the presence of the mantra, if you understood how such things work in Buddhism.

I agree on the ridiculousness of the Korean claim to have invented Kendo (which mostly consists of, "people did sword-fight in Korea, nevermind that this kind of swordfighting is provably Japanese"), but I've never heard any serious claim that hapkido is not largely derived from Japan (they did add the kicks from taekkyeon, though, so it is a unique martial art--rather like how Karate is uniquely Japanese despite being largely from South China), and I wasn't aware there was a Korean form of kenpo. Nagakura shin8 09:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Your logic is same as Kumdo logic which is an ancient Goguryo wall painting showed a man holding a stick, thus Kumdo(Kendo) was invented by Korean.(Goguryo dispute between China and Korea aside)

There might have been fist mudra in Korea before Yi dynasty but there is no proof that the fist mudra was exactly same as Kuji-in. Hapkido is same Chinese character as Aikido 合気道. The founder of Hapkido Choi Yong Sul learned Aiki-jiu-jutsu 合気柔術 in Japan and brought it back to Korea. He added some kicks and punches and created Hapkido. Origin of Taekwondo is same way.--Harada 3nosuke (talk) 04:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Picture Mismatch?

In the first seal, Rin, the picture shows the hands together with the index fingers raised and pressed together. The description, and other sources on Kujiin.com state that the middle finger should be raised, and "Extending the index represents the affirmation of power, as a decree of the self. This version of the RIN mudra will be more frequently used by martial artists and people who wish to build a stronger willpower." Perhaps a picture for the normal seal should be added, aswell as an explanation of the alternative seal. SlaserX 16:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, for the kuji no in of PYO, those who use the middle fingers for RIN maintain the middle fingers extended and curl the index fingers around in front of the extended middle fingers. It is also listed that the names for ZEN are hobyo-in/ongyo-in...this is incorrect. Ongyo-in is used for ZEN often with Mikkyo related kuji practices. However Hobyo-in is used for RIN with esoteric Shinto practices. Esoteric Shinto uses the word inkei-in (shadow) for ZEN. Please refer to the Guji at Iso no Kami Jinja, Guji Yamamoto, Yukiyasu (Jun) at Tsubaki Okami Yashiro Daijinja in Suzuka-shi Mie-ken, and Guji Koichi Ideta Barrish of Tsubaki America Grand Shrine for verification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tadanokami (talk • contribs) 21:39, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciaion

How is Kuji-in pronounced? - The 4th Snake 19:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

IPA: kɯʥi-iɴ. Essentially, ku-zhi-in, with the N being sort of unpronounced, like a final N in French. Nagakura shin8 (talk) 06:53, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Pyou, not Byou

User 210.128.243.2 changed the Pyo to Byo. I'm assuming he/she/(it? they?) read Ashida Kim's lame little books on being a pseudo-Scientologist Television Ninja...and not being able to pronounce Japanese. Unlike Korean (which doesn't pronounce it as a B either, but it is closer than Japanese), Japanese has fairly sharply expelled P sounds: the syllable is Pyou. Nagakura shin8 (talk) 20:33, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Pyou and Byou are both correct. In fact, Japanese wikipedia describes Byou. http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B9%9D%E5%AD%97. Usually Japanese kanji has multiple way of reading. (But I agree Ashida Kim's books are full of fabrications.).--Harada 3nosuke (talk) 04:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it becomes Byou in the sequence (like how "kiri" becomes "giri" in "kesagiri") but is Pyou, or perhaps Hyou, on its own. Nagakura shin8 (talk) 18:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

missing "in"

"In the anime Sailor Moon, Rei used the Kuji-in front of a fire to see visions" I assume that it should read: "In the anime Sailor Moon, Rei used the Kuji-in in front of a fire to see visions" So I will change it. WookMuff (talk) 12:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

What does ADE mean??

In the first sentence under "History" you wrote : ".......a poem written by Ge Hong c.280-340 ADE..." I have serched the internet and have not found an answer to what ADE means or when that is! We have lots of new words to identify a way to know the time in history. AD is one. BCE is one. BC is one and CE is another. If ADE should mean Anno Domini Era - that does not make sense because a year can not be an era. Maybe you typed wrong? and actually meant BCE. Anyway - would you please change the text into the right expression, because I have now spent 43 minutes trying to find out when "280-340 ADE" is. There are lots of people asking if anyone knows what ADE stands for, and nobody has any answers. Thank you, regards, Marina — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.93.45.175 (talk) 23:10, 5 January 2019 (UTC)