Talk:Kumhar

The word kumhar,is not a caste it is like a culture. From any caste a person who does Potter work! He may be a kumhar. So we can say that kumhar itself a caste. A story about Lord Brahma Prajapati that they had four sons on the planet Earth and one day they gave sugarcanes to their four sons. And after few months, they wanted that sugarcanes back but their sons ate the sugarcanes but one of his son couldn't eat because he was busy in his work of Pottery and planted that sugarcane in the sand and bring back it to the lord Brahma. They became very happy from his son whose name was kumhar or Sanatan, They gave the "Prajapati" title to him. So it is clear that Prajapati can be A Brahmin, A kshatriya, A vaishya but never become untouchable. Prajapati is the descipline of hindu diety,and all castes are from Prajapati.

Scheduled Caste and OBC concern

The caste Kumhar or Prajapati is listed among OBC in the Reservation Lists of various states in India. It is fact and we all know it. I am unable to understand what is the problem in accepting the truth. Many so called clean castes are included in Reservation lists. Why do we attempt to change it? will the reality change this way? If some caste members have objection to this then they shall approach the Indian Government authorities to change this because that is the only solution to change this fact. However, the history then will be like the caste was first included in OBC categories and later its members approached the Government to change it to General category.Presently, the article shows the caste to be a member of ancient Shudra category on the basis of the published research reports so please dont apply your own original research. Past is past, It is noway connected to the present or the present status of the caste and presently nobody is Kshatriya as these are age old mythological denominations. Presently the Indian categories are General, OBC, and each and everything is legally evident in the official records of Govt. of India.--MahenSingha (Talk) 17:40, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Kumhar caste was listed as OBC category in all states. If you need more clarification please download OBC list of India and double check. Tamilan pugal (talk) 01:53, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Wrong. See this. - Sitush (talk) 04:32, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Try to portrait a any caste good manner.lots of points shows like this caste is low caste among the all caste. Try to remove word shudra and specifically UP and Bihar states not yet added this caste in SC list till now. My opinion is Wikipedia should give postive news about any caste in india but here you have mentioned about high court pending cases about this caste in UP and Bihar coloumn. Try to remove as well. Once central government confirmed they are added in SC class after that you can add those information in this page. This is just my suggestion and I believe that you would consider that. Thanks Mrmathan (talk) 04:32, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Untitled

This article is in considerably good shape compared to the earlier versions, but still a lot remains to be down. To begin with, the History section talks only about mythological origins -- there is no actual history (except names of a few "notable Kumhars"). Secondly, much of the article is based on obsolete information from A glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab and North-West frontier province (1911): The authors Horace Arthur Rose (1867-1933), Denzil Ibbetson (1847-1908) and Edward Douglas Maclagan (1864-1952) are all dead, and the book hasn't been updated since 1911. Worse still, much of the information in the book is based on Ibbetson's 1881 census. The information like "as they keep camels instead of donkeys", "their women wear gold nose-rings" etc. is irrelevant in today's context -- my parents come from the Kumhar caste, and I can vouch for this (though I don't believe in the caste system, and I don't consider myself belonging to the Kumhar caste). Thirdly, the article is full of unnecessary use of Indic scripts (Hindi/Punjabi) -- this is English Wikipedia, and the Indic content is better off at Hindi Wikipedia or Punjabi Wikipedia. utcursch | talk 09:42, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Utkarsc should once apply kumbhar after his name and see what is impact of cast system in India he is one of those who are is ashamed saying themselves Kuhar. boy go to your elders in villages and ask them about your cast. they will tell you real story. ths is my openion being a {{Brahma prajapati}} and he is behind kjhalli whoever is him kjhalli seem to be a nice guy. buddy utkarsh add something if u have some time do something constructive —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamaldevjhalli (talk • contribs)

I'm not "ashamed" -- I just don't like clinging to the ridiculous caste system like some other users out here. Irrespective of whether I go and talk to elders in the village or not, the points mentioned by me above still remain of concern. utcursch | talk 15:02, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

hey utkarsh i feel heartily charmed to know that u r a kumhar welcome buddy now i don't care if u like to delete all matter in this article after all u r my brother man. any kind of help needed i will be there. regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamaldevjhalli (talk • contribs) 05:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

That's encouraging! Have a look at Featured articles like Toraja to see what a well-written article on tribes/ethnic groups/communities should look like. Of course, I'm always here to help. utcursch | talk 08:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Utkarschz i don't have to give/take anything from thisToraja, in which u may be interested. I asked if u need some help, i will b there cause u r a kumhar and so my brother. Why u don't edit chamar/jatt/jat/brahmin articles. Brother add something to this article if u have a real wonder-mind. Search around u and add real history. By the way to blame/finding faults is easier than adding real life scenes to any article or say u can always ask: why; then again why; cite, cite, cite..... But real things are made using people and finding different life truths that may not be well written in history books. Kumhars/Prajapati's being a layman's cast/system were kept away from vedas/higher studies that is why, some people think them to be a lower caste and that is not a truth when i searched.

U may oppose caste system but cannot run away from it if u live in India otherwise go and oppose Quota system due to which u are working in a private firm. Oppose census in India who ask your caste.regardsKamaldevjhalli —Preceding undated comment added 14:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC).

I belong to Pakistani Kumhar Family , But mostly there is less information about sub caste of Kumhar Families — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.203.148.203 (talk) 18:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Article needs to be cleaned up and references added

It is very poorly worded and is not sourced at all. TimesGerman (talk) 04:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Prajapati References

A lot of of this article talks about the links to the mythological/religious Prajapati. What the link between Prajapati and Kumhar is, I am not able to figure out since nothing is sourced. I am going to tag this as dubious and will delete in the future if no source material is added or no discussion happens. TimesGerman (talk) 15:27, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

There is no link between mythological Prajapati and present Kumhars except that they chose as surname and claimed to be so.-- Mahensingha _{(Talk) "Thanx n Regards"} 13:09, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Reconstructing Article

The article needs to be reconstructed in the light of facts with reliable sources. All the editors are requested to help building it, keeping in mind WP:NPOV and WP:RS. Add the contents with references only.-- Mahensingha _{(Talk) "Thanx n Regards"} 13:14, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

My Request To You For Edit Gujjar Prajapati In Sub Group List Of Gujarat. Because It Is missing... Therutvikmakwana (talk) 14:36, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Tempering with the sourced contents

Article was simply a mess, full of unsourced, unreliable information. Since Now it has been shaped according to the tone of wikipedia and needs to be maintained. However I observed a lot of edits from I.P.s tempering with the sourced contents. I request everyone that this is not the way of doing things. If you need to incorporate something, express it, discuss and for that purpose Talk page is the right place. -- Mahensingha _{(Talk) "Thanx n Regards"} 17:04, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2015

Please remove the line Prajapati kumhar in SC categories Prajapati only one in OBC category not in SC search declared list in central OBC list please remove from kumhar Wikipedia page, please remove this line it is not true Prajapati (Kumhar) is only OBC 49.249.98.170 (talk) 03:53, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2015

Whoever you are. you are citing from google books and many more rubbish sources why don't you understand those cited sources are also written by someone. Remember what mentioned in bellow paragraph is true, accurate and correct you should add this and keep on the article. go in the villages in western maharashtra explore in people meet them personally who are living there, ask questionnaires, and reveal the truth. So many times adding foolish content with claiming citations from well published books doesn't means revealing reality and truth, sometimes reality is not documented. I want to raise a few queries What do you think about it, you should think yourself.... 1. Is reality always had or had been or being documented??? 2. Don't you find the things happening in society which are true happening yet never been or never being documented???? 3. With biased vision and corrupt dilemma it is very very much difficult to reveal the truth.like you have yours.... disgusting. if you are real human being with true heart and brain all unbiased, clear vision and thinking of good you should think.... or leave it. its none for you. let it be. Remember truth is immortal, God is mighty enough and reveal every thing. Today what you are doing to others one day you also be treated likewise. If you try to hide truth behind untrue it will be revealed double. Truth alone triumph. Still though God bless you with what you deserve.

Maharashtra (Maratha kumbhar)(Not to be confused with Maratha or Maratha Clan System)

Kumhars are found in Satara, Sangli, Kolhapur, Sholapur and Pune. They speak in Marathi among themselves but in Marathi as well as Hindi with outsiders. They use Devnagari script for communication. There are kumbhars who do not belong to Maratha clan lives in maharashtra and have occupation of making idols and pots. They are aware of the Hindu Varna heirarchy and consider themselves to be the Shudra, the lowest rank. But never doccumented yet must not be ignored according common general beleifs and customs retained by Hierarchy, the Kumbhar community especially in Gujrat, Rajasthan, along with Western Maharashtra; is further divided into below sub-divisions, including 1.Maratha 2.Mathera 3.Kumavat 4.Marwara 5.Timiria 6.Mawalia 7.pandit 8.Sighatiya 9.sihota 10.Sunkdiwal 11.Shardiwal 12.Kirodiwal Each of these groups specialize in a particular form of earthwork. Especially in different districts of Maharashtra. Like in Raigad, Satara , Kolhapur, & Sangli the Kumbhar people are respected as Raje and given only status as Maratha to extent and limited to terminogoly, Actually there is no any connection with Prominent Maratha or Maratha Clan System to any extent because the Gotra or Mulpurush of this clan is Prajapati ("Daksha" not counted in Saptarishi named "Vashista", "Marichi", "Pulastya", "Pulaha", "Atri", "Angiras" and "Bhrigu" along with "Kasyapa formed 96 Kula Dharma by 12 Kula each.Those people are specially recognised and respected as being Maratha.) However to establish a Social and Socio-economic equality Maratha people offered their all privileges to certain Kumbhar community. Those privileges are to all extent except marriages and never been extended to transactions like marriages. They are prominently found in western Maharashtra and Konkan part of Maharashtra state. In western Maharashtra they are situated in districts Satara , Sangli, Kolhapur and In Konkan mainly Districts -Raigad, Ratnagiri. They are also present in Goa state in significant numbers. They were served for creation of Hindawi swarajya in the era of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj. Chhatrapati offered Jahangiri (award given by king in the form of Land) for their bravery. After foundation of Swarajya later on their families have started business like brick industries, making idols, and farming. Most of the Maratha Kumbhar have their surname as Kumbhar. In Western Maharastra their surnames are Kumbhar, Raje, Shirke, Patil, Jadhav, whilst in Konkan , their Surnames are mostly derived from their village name. In Konkan side their surnames are Kumbhar, Salvi and derived from village name.Their family businesses differ in different districts of Maharashtra. Like in Raigad, some part of Navi Mumbai Maratha Kumbhar make ganesh idols as "Ganesh Ustav" is the big festivel celebrated in Raigad and Mumbai, also in Konkan side. Pen Ganesh idols are famous all over Maharashtra. Apart from this Konkan Maratha Kumbhar also involved in farming and brick manufacturing. In Western Maharashtra district Maratha Kumbhar are usually involved in brick manufacture and farming. Kumbhars in Gujarat There are sub-caste in Gujarati Kumbhar like Prajapati Kumbhar, Variya kumbhar, Vataliya kumbhar, [[Kadiya kumbhar, Sorathiya kumbhar Atul Raje2015 (talk) 04:25, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

 Not done One source for that wall of text? I don't think so. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:05, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

All the theories mentioned in the claim are simply WP:OR. Govt of India has documented the caste as OBC and in few areas as SC.-- Mahensingha _{(Talk) "Thanx n Regards"} 12:05, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

References

I have proof Maanp (talk) 19:33, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 April 2015

Kumhars are only classified as general-cum-obc in all the states of india.

Kumhars and Sunars are from kshatriya origin in Hindu Verna Hiarachy according to Hindu verna system.

Gadhare kumhars are below to untouchables(SC)Manusmriti 59.99.171.27 (talk) 08:12, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --I am k6ka ^{Talk to me!} _{See what I have done} 11:34, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 January 2016

Please Change: "They are aware of the Hindu Varna hierarchy and consider themselves to be the Shudra, the lowest rank.[2]" To: "Prajapati belongs to Brhamin or Kshatriya Varna according to Hindu Varna System.

Warriors belonging to community (caste) of potter cum Brahmin commonly known as kumhars are seen as descendants of Prajapati: Lord Brahma, Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva and are considered Prajapatis." Sited from:

Please change:

"Depending upon the subgroup or region they are classified as both Other Backward Class[2] and the Scheduled Caste.[3][4][5] Additionally, there is a proposal under process in Indian Parliament that the caste Prajapati (Kumhar) be declared as Scheduled caste and as Scheduled tribe in the states of Bihar and Orissa respectively.[6]The caste Kumhar (Prajapati) has been proveded Sheduled Caste status in Uttar Pradesh.[13]"

To "Kumhars generally belong to 'Other Backward class' in Indian constitution. In some regions of Himachal, Rajasthan, UP and Bihar they belong to General Category." Sited from:

Please Change: "Mythological origin A section of Hindu Kumhars honorifically call themselves Prajapati after Vedic Prajapati, the Lord, who created the universe.[1]

According to a legend prevalent among Kumhars

Once Brahma divided sugarcane among his sons and each of them ate his share, but the Kumhara who was greatly absorbed in his work, forgot to eat. The piece which he had kept near his clay lump struck root and soon grew into a sugarcane plant. A few days later, when Brahma asked his sons for sugarcane, none of them could give it to him, excepting the Kumhara who offered a full plant. Brahma was pleased by the devotion of the potter to his work and awarded him the title Prajapati.[1]

There is an opinion that this is because of their traditional creative skills of pottery, they are regarded as Prajapati. [8]" To "Mythological origin A section of Hindu Kumhars honorifically call themselves Prajapati after Vedic Prajapati, the Lord, who created the universe.[1]

According to a legend prevalent among Hindu Religion:

In shiv Maha Puran, Daksa Prajapati was the son of Lord Brahma. Daksa Prajapati was a great scholar of Yajur-Ved. One day, Brahma was pleased with him, and he gave Daksa Prajapati a prestigious rank, by given this rank, he became very proud of it, and he decided to make Maha Yagna. He invited Rishis, Muniyos, Devos (Demi-God), and Brahmins. All of those came to Maha-Yagna and set at the Mandap. Daksa Prajapati entered the Mandap, on his arrival, everybody stood up except Brahma and Shankar, and they remained seated. After observing this, Daksa Prajapati said," This Shankar is my son-in-law, but he doesn't know how to respect me, so I would not allow him to take part in Maha-Yagna". Hearing this, Shankar remained calm, but Nandi, could not bear it, and he told Daksa Prajapati, "Hey Daksa, you're very proud and conceited, and don't consider Shankar as your son-in-law, but as you have insulted Shankar, and did not give respect to him in this Mandap, in return, I give you a curse that your entire lineage, in-spite of being of a high and holy Brahmin, in Kali Yug, they'll be known as non-Brahmins".

Just as Brahma, the maker of humanity, used the five elements: fire, water, wind, earth and air, so did the descendant's of the son of Brahma, Daksa Prajapati, also uses the five elements: fire, water, wind, earth, and air, to create different types of utensils and artwork. These items are mainly used for the basic use for the general public uses, by providing for eating, drinking, living and worshipping.

There is an opinion that this is because of their traditional creative skills of pottery, they are regarded as Prajapati. [8]"

Sited from:

Please Add: "Prajapati or Kumhars, if we date back to 10000 BC were most important sections of society in Indian Civilization. They were among the first industries of civilizations. They were never untouchables and were known for their hospitality. The utensils manufactured by Prjapatis were used by every caste for meals and drinking. There are several stories in Hindu religion in which Brahmin could take shelter only in Prajapati or Kumhar"s house and could accept food from him. As per Vedas Only Brahmin or Prajapati/Kumhar can offer worship and other rituals in Yagnas and Pujas"

Sited from: Brahminprajapati (talk) 09:56, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, your sources does not prove anything. None of the reliable literature proves any connection of Modern Kumhar potter caste people and divine Prajapati, which is nothing but a myth and still the article has the mention of this mythological origin. Further regarding the classification, they are placed in OBC categories. Kindly keep in mind that wikipedia is not the place for what you termed "honourification" but is the place for information based on Reliable Sources. In India It is a fashion that people project their dark side for taking caste based benefits from Government Agencies but are always ready with a brighter side to prove themselves warrior or Brahmin. Every caste in India has a mythological story of being warrior or Brahmin but in reality it is not so. Hope you understand the difference between myths and reality or mythology and genuine history. Thanks for your contribution.--SMahenS (Talk) 18:29, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Not done: For the reasons listed by SMahenS --allthefoxes ^(Talk) 18:43, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2016

Prajapati kumhar is not in SC category Prajapati kumhar is conform in OBC category it is declared.

Pawanhindu (talk) 16:57, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Please note that the article does not say that all Kumhars are classified as SC. Research based and Govt. Of India notified sources cited in the article say that depending upon the sub group and region they are differently classified as both SC and OBC. Also it is true that various states moved their proposal in the parliament to recat few communities from OBC to SC and Kumhar is one of them. Article say the same, It does not say that they are reclassified as SC everywhere. The statement is clear about the conditional classification. Also as far as mythological sources are concerned, the Vedas don't mention the occupational Kumhar caste, they just mention the Lord Prajapati, to which the community relates itself presently. How ever this myth is already included in the article. Thanks--MahenSingha (Talk) 20:11, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2016

that the caste Prajapati (Kumhar) be declared as Scheduled caste and as Scheduled tribe in the states of Bihar and Orissa respectively

please remove Pawanhindu (talk) 11:02, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

 Not done that information is clearly sourced - Arjayay (talk) 08:21, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 June 2016

HC stays UP government order including 'Kumhar' caste under SCs.

Allahabad High Court on Wednesday stayed an order passed by the Uttar Pradesh government two months ago in which 'Kumhar' caste was included in the Scheduled Castes. A Division Bench of Justice Ashok Bhushan and Justice Satish Chandra passed the order on a Public Interest Litigation challenging the Government Order dated January 18. The petition challenged the order on the ground that according to the Constitution, only the Centre had the power to include any caste group in the list of Scheduled Castes. Staying the order, the court asked the state government to file its counter affidavit stating under what provisions it had included a new caste group in the list of Scheduled Castes.

source taken from News 18.

Omniscientme (talk) 14:41, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Taking a note on the above, please note-"Staying the order, the court asked the state government to file its counter affidavit stating under what provisions it had included a new caste group in the list of Scheduled Castes."

Here court asked the UP Govt. that on what grounds the SC Status to Kumhars is granted. Article mention this much only that UP Govt. granted SC status to the subject caste. Also note the lead says that the proposal of including Kumhars in SC is under process. Such proposals are put by various State Govts. on which the centre has to give decision. So, What is wrong in this. And yes in case of parts of central India, they are already counted among SC in some specific cases. Presently article is not deviating from any of the facts. Thanks.--MahenSingha (Talk) 19:49, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  23:53, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2017

There is no information of Kumhars from Southern parts of India in your page. Please add the below piece of information under Distribution in India

Karnataka

The Kumbara or Kumbhara is considered to be a pure caste in Karnataka. Most of the Kumbaras of Karnataka are vegetarians and have equal status as brahmins do and only a few others(notably in few districts of South Karnataka) who consumes meat are considered to be in the middle of the higher castes and the Harijans.

Kulal, Gowda, and Shetty are some of the common surnames among Kumbaras of Karnataka depending on their profession apart from the age old tradition of pottery. And some won't possess any surnames. The great Mysore Wadiyars (alternatively spelt Wodeyer or Odeyer) are from the potters community. The spelling by modern transliteration rules from Kannada is Odeyar the word Wadiyar is a surname of a community in South India who are from the Potters community. Now also you can see the six feet Potters wheel, stick, etc., which is fully made of the pure Gold, in the well known Mysore palace.

Sarvajña was a Kannada poet, pragmatist and philosopher of the 16th century who was born to a Shaivaite Brahmin father and a Kumbara mother. Rashmisshetty (talk) 22:54, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. – Nihlus (talk) 23:05, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 28 May 2020

Being offspring of Daksh Prajapati, Kumbhkars are called as Prajapati. When there was no Varna, Prajapati was there, hence, it stated by some of knowledgeable persons of Hindu Dharma that the Prajapati are upper in all castes including Brahamins. Maharaj Manu was also Prajapati. The creator of this world Lord Brahma is also called Prajapati as per Hindu mythology. King Shalivahana was also Prajapati (Kumbhkar). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.68.22.55 (talk) 18:05, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done It is unclear what change you would like to see (please be specific). Also, please provide reliable sources when proposing a change. --regentspark (comment) 18:32, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2021

Kumhar are considered in vaishya category as they are dependent on farmer for eat and they made kumbh (earthen pot) for religious purposes. Kumhar are clean caste earlier they are considered in brahmin varna but later they came in vaishya varna Arya Khushal (talk) 13:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes Arya Khushal (talk) 13:13, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Please provide sourcing for any changes you'd like to make. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:20, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2021 (2)

In division they are in vaishya varna Arya Khushal (talk) 13:26, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

You still need to provide sourcing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:33, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I have source Maanp (talk) 19:31, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2021

They aren't shudhra they are from bhramin father and vaishya mother acc to mahabharata!

I can show proof! Maanp (talk) 19:30, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Then give proof! 2405:201:5802:9C4D:E05F:2862:1C6D:DFC7 (talk) 17:55, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 March 2024

Kumhars are considered as brahmin khastriya, vaisha verna. Because they are considered as clean caste and they make the materials of worshiping. They are said to be the first engineers of the universe. Pottery making was considered as highly skilled profession and it was very profitable at that time. That why they were also considered in vaisha verna. Not only pottery, parjapatis/kumhars are also highly involved in agriculture, even today 42.5% parjapatis do the farming. Which is higher than most of the castes. Some people wanting to defame the caste consider them aa shudras, but shudras were those who were involved in labour, non skilled tasks while pottery was very critical, Engineering, highly skilled tasks and techinal knowledge is required to do the pottery. 103.132.244.207 (talk) 15:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 15:09, 30 March 2024 (UTC)