Talk:Lake Ellesmere / Te Waihora

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Rare Jessies?[edit]

Regarding the wildlife section... what is a "rare Jessie"? It seems that should have a link to a more commonly used term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.61.170.118 (talk) 09:36, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 25 November 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Based on the discussion, There is no clear consensus to move the article to the proposed title. The nominator has provided some evidence that the proposed title is more common in news sources, but the opposition has provided some evidence that the dual name is more common in scholarly sources. There is no agreement on which sources or metrics are more reliable or relevant for determining the common name. There are different opinions and preferences among the users, some of whom live in the area or are familiar with the lake. I'd also acknowledge that the discussion generally was weakly in favour of the move, however, the consensus is not strong or clear-cut, as there are also some valid arguments and sources that support the current title or the alternative title of Te Waihora. The current title should remain unchanged pending further discussions. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:23, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lake Ellesmere / Te Waihora → Lake Ellesmere – Per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE, and MOS:SLASH.

Reliable sources overwhelmingly prefer the proposed title; for the past year Google News provides 23 results for any form of the current title, while providing hundreds of results for the proposed title.

The proposed title is also more concise, and better conforms with MOS:SLASH. BilledMammal (talk) 08:37, 25 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 12:07, 4 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Polyamorph (talk) 09:52, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose this is ridiculous. Both names have been regularly used on maps since the 19th century, with a form of dual name recorded as the name of the lake since the 1930s by the gazetteer and the current dual name widely used by groups in the area. I'd also note that since 2014, ngrams has shown a significant increase in the use of Waihora (used as the article Te was not added to the name until the 80s), to the point that it is now several times higher than that of Lake Ellesmere. The book results for this demonstrate strong usage of the dual name, which also echoes the name used in the sort of sources suggested by WP:WIAN. Given strong usage of both the dual name, Te Waihora, and Lake Ellesmere, the dual name is far and away the most WP:RECOGNISABLE name and ensures the article is actually useful for readers. Turnagra (talk) 00:07, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Searching Google News for Te Waihora we only get five results; searching for just Waihora returns a few more results, but as far as I can tell only two of the additional results are relevant; the rest primarily refer to either a lagoon or a rugby team. It remains clear that the WP:COMMONNAME is Lake Ellesmere. BilledMammal (talk) 02:04, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Having lived in Christchurch for 25 years and and having used the peninsula as my playground, I’ve witnessed how people started using the two names interchangeably from the late 2010s. Schwede66 17:37, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per preponderance of sources. Clear preference in major news agencies for the proposed title, notably in recent coverage of the search for Yanfei Bao.
    I also note that we have the choice between Lake Ellesmere, Te Waihora and Lake Ellesmere / Te Waihora. Popular use of the first two is not enough to support the third, per Multiple local names. For the record, I would be fine with a move to Te Waihora if it were as common as Lake Ellesmere, but I don’t think it really approaches that threshold yet. — HTGS (talk) 03:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I feel like that's actually a key reason we should use the dual name - all three of the names have a high degree of usage, but only one of them is easily recognisable regardless of what name a person knows it as. We're still choosing a single name as WP:MLN tells us to (and we're not making it up, which I'd agree is not a good idea), but we're making sure that the name we use is the most commonly understood one. If you've grown up always knowing the lake as "Te Waihora" or "Lake Ellesmere", you'd still recognise the dual name as the same place. If it's just at one of the single names, but you've known it your whole life as the other, it would be far less clear and more confusing. Turnagra (talk) 04:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    all three of the names have a high degree of usage I'm not convinced of this; looking at the results from the past year we see the dual name and the alternative single name receiving less than 10% of the usage that "Lake Ellesmere" receives. BilledMammal (talk) 04:34, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support WP:COMMONNAME is Lake Ellesmere. Lake Ellesmere is definitely the most searched term out of the two here. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 09:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This isn't prefect since it but if you add a "dual name" option to the Google trends search, that's clearly the winner too. Of course this probably includes both terms but the Google ngrams viewer shows a clear preference for the dual name. Again, ngrams on dual names is really not a good tool especially given concerns about current names vs. historical names. But, support Turnagra's argument that dual names allow both to be recognizable. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:34, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FYI: You have already addressed the issue with your Google Trends search—which is the result for people searching for the “thing” (the lake), and not for a search term—but it’s also worth noting that Ngrams treats the unadorned slash as a divide function, showing you not the trend for that whole term, but the relationship between the two terms. This is why I emphasise the use in contemporary news sources, which are a rough proxy to popular use (with a bias for the dual name if you believe some people *cough* Winston *cough*). — HTGS (talk) 00:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
NB, the Ngram here shows no use of the dual name: [1]
And the relevant guidance from Google here: [2] (under “Ngram Compositions”).— HTGS (talk) 00:25, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The issue with your Google Trends search is that you are comparing people searching for the topic of the lake with people using either single name as the search term; in other words, your dual name result doesn't only include people using the dual name but people using either of the single names.
The correct query to see if people are using the dual name is this one; you'll see that virtually no-one is. BilledMammal (talk) 00:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom and above. As someone who lives in Christchurch, Lake Ellesmere is used far more often than Te Waihora. I wouldn't have even known they were the same place unless I was told so. --Spekkios (talk) 19:46, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    As someone else who lives in Christchurch, I've nearly only ever heard the dual name or Te Waihora used when talking about the lake. Lake Ellesmere tends to only be old people who have lived in the area for decades and have a tendency to use outdated terms. Turnagra (talk) 20:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I have never heard Te Waihora from anyone. Old or young. --Spekkios (talk) 07:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You clearly need to get out of your bubble then - it might do you some good. Turnagra (talk) 08:37, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You clearly need to get out of your bubble. It might do you some good. --Spekkios (talk) 23:51, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per increasing use of in academic and scientific publishing. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom and to avoid use of the slash. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The slash is required by New Zealand-specific naming conventions for dual titles, and its presence is irrelevant for the move discussion. Turnagra (talk) 04:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Poo on NZ special slash titles. It is inconsistent with COMMONNAME and panders to bureaucratic indecision. Is quality sources don’t use the slash, don’t use the slash. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:40, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject New Zealand has been notified of this discussion. Bensci54 (talk) 13:40, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment since WP:COMMONNAME has come up a lot here, I think it's important to point out the recent scholarly results (which are going to be a more reliable indicator of the lake's name in comparison to the news results where the lake is mostly tangential context to the search in the area. Looking at the first 20 pages of results from 2019 onwards for just "Lake Ellesmere" (and filtering out results for Sawtooth Lake on Ellesmere Island), we see overwhelming results for the dual name:
  • Dual name only (any form): 109
  • Lake Ellesmere only: 29
  • Te Waihora only (single reference to full name for context): 3
  • Interchangeable use of multiple names (equal): 8
  • Interchangeable use of multiple names (primarily Lake Ellesmere): 4
  • Interchangeable use of multiple names (primarily Te Waihora): 2
Interestingly, a further search specifically for "Te Waihora" filtering out results for Ellesmere (to prevent double counting of the dual name) returned a further 63 results for the same time period - more than twice the results for just "Lake Ellesmere" on its own. In my view, this pretty conclusively proves that the common name argument cited above by several in favour of the move holds very little water. Turnagra (talk) 21:26, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the scholarly results since 2019 in full, you are right that there is a preference there for the dual name, with 177 results for the dual name compared to 132 for the single name. Interesting, that preference, in contradiction to Stuartyeates' claim that there is increasing use of the dual name in scholarly work, is decreasing; if we look since 2022 there are 53 results for the dual name compared to 51 for the single name; from 2019 to 2021 the ratio was 3:2, from 2022 to now the ratio has been almost 1:1.
More importantly, even if we combine the past five years of scholarly results with the most recent year of news results we still get a clear preference for the single name; this, I think, is a more appropriate metric than trying to decide whether to give priority to news sources or scholarly sources. BilledMammal (talk) 09:53, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relying on WP:HITS is flawed and often inflated by sources which only mention a citation and nothing more, or completely unreliable sources such as this. Actually looking through the sources, as I did, shows a much clearer preference for the dual name in sources where the lake is the focus. This is also true of the sources you're citing as mentioned above, where the sources which used the single name were only doing so in passing as context around the murder rather than the lake being the focus of the article. When it is the focus, as seen in the reliable scholarly sources or sections on the gazetteer, the dual name is overwhelmingly used. Turnagra (talk) 21:49, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: Relisting for further discussion regarding common name across all sources, see user talk page discussion here Polyamorph (talk) 09:52, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. The common name situation seems to be very clear, per the presented evidence. That the current name has existed since 19th century or has been heard anecdotally by editors is not really relevant.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:14, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Lakes has been notified of this discussion. Polyamorph (talk) 10:23, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note to closer: User is blocked as WP:LOUTSOCK. There is no evidence of socking on this discussion. Polyamorph (talk) 08:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC) [reply]
  • Oppose. If anything, why not rename the page Te Waihora and remove the colonial name / redirect from "Lake Ellesmere"? A brief search shows many sites and agencies using Te Waihora primarily or in reverse order to the page name here. Presumably Te Waihora has been colloquially used long before it was given an anglicized name. As a side note, google results seem sporadic with too few points to make conclusions from - google trends comparisons show Te Waihora used generally more in news, for example. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all_2008&gprop=news&q=Te%20Waihora,%2Fm%2F03ybw2&hl=en Uninspired Username (talk) 02:18, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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