Talk:Leonberger

Leonbergers and Golden Girls Dreyfus

I know that the dog (actually two dogs) looked like a Leonberger (a/k/a Leo). But I have read on several occasions that it was a mix of Saint Bernard and Golden Retriever, and I consider this source to be reliable. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 20:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC) Stan

Is it a coincidence that the title dogs used in the "Call of the Wild: Dog of the Yukon", were leonbergers and this movie was narrated by Richard Dreyfuss? Although, I believe the movie came out after the tv series, but maybe not after the spin-off series "Empty Nest". Since St Bernards can sometimes have a "covered" mask, it is possible that a cross between the two breeds would produce a leonberger looking dog, and the Golden Retriever has a very similar coat, although the breed is nowhere near as old as the leonberger, so is not an ancestor. I don't think that the dog in either tv series was large enough to be a purebred leonberger, judging by pictures of it standing beside common furniture like sofas and tables. It also has a lot of white fur. But it certainly looks like a leonberger-cross. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNlUyqAIRho Since it can't be confirmed, and since the owner of the actor-dog claims otherwise, I think it should be left out of the Pop Culture section. 60.234.229.163 (talk) 04:45, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Indented line

Leonbergers in Puppy Mills

Leonbergers have become very popular in the US, so much so that some Puppy Mills and questionable breeders have obtained Leonbergers and some are even falsifying pedigrees. States such as Missouri and areas of the mid west have numerous puppy mills. Be careful in purchasing your Leo from such a place. You can take a look at the Leonberger Club of America (if outside the USA contact your country's Leonberger Club) or search for a reputable breeder. Keep in mind that being a member of any club is not an automatic stamp of approval for a reputable breeder, regardless of who or where you get your Leo, verify EVERY claim that a breeder makes. You can also check on a pedigree via several data bases for the Leonberger dog at http://ileodata.com and http://www.leonberger-database.com If you are not able to find the dog that you are thinking of purchasing on one of these databases, there is a chance that the Leo you think you are getting is not what the seller claims. There are 2 Leonberger Rescue groups that work together to help with any Leos that are found in shelters, news paper ads and sometimes even at the "puppy mill" auctions. They can be located at the following sites, http://www.leosinneedrescue.org http://www.leonberger-rescue.org The Leos Den (talk) 03:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The Leos Den (talk) 22:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a serious (and distressing) issue for those who know and love the breed, as is the sale of Leos in pet stores. It is not unique to this breed, although it is definitely contrary to what the Leonberger Club of America is all about. Perhaps it merits a section (NPOV) in the main article, as well as other articles on pedigreed dogs. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:41, 22 January 2009 (UTC) Stan

Footnote 8

I have repeatedly tried to fix this, and for unknown reasons can't make it display properly. If anybody can fix it, that would be appreciated. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 11:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC) Stan

Fixed Whoo hoo! Used URL template. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:04, 31 March 2009 (UTC) Stan

 Done 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:31, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Link to 'Bitch' (the insult)

In the article, the word 'bitch' is used to mean 'a female dog', but is hyperlinked to the article on 'Bitch' (the insult). It seems that following the link would not help greatly in understanding the word 'bitch' in the sense in which it is used in the 'Leonberger' article, nor in understanding the article itself. Should the link be removed? Gjnyasa (talk) 05:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Not totally corrected. The problem arose because we linked to bitches when we meant to link to bitch, with an 'es' added to it. However, it appears that the article does say (and this is the only article on the subject) that "a term for the female of a canine species in general, . . ." That most of the article deals with the insult does not change the first sentence. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Stan

"Very Large"

Seems unprofessional and highly subjective. The "very large breed of dog" part on the first line. Gracias

- Dude —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.78.230.129 (talk) 02:45, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Leonberger Infobox is not displaying properly

There is a lot more information in the infobox than is displayed. This is a technical problem. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:08, 5 December 2010 (UTC) Stan

You just have to click on "show" instead of "hide." Thank you. Never mind, nothing to see here. That would a 'duh-moment.' Operator error. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:36, 5 December 2010 (UTC) Stan

 Done 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:32, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Healthy?

First it says 'Leonbergers are strong, generally healthy dogs', then it states that 'there are many serious diseases that can affect the Leonberger'. Is it just me, or is this quite contradicting? Avietar (talk) 12:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

For a giant breed, they are healthy and 'fairly long lived.' The basic problem with this is that gigantism in dogs is generally a fatal disease. My Leo dog lasted 8 ½ years, and his sister lasted 9 ½. He died from a back problem, and she died from some form of cancer (we did not get it diagnosed, as it was essentially inoperable). With the exception of yeast and occasional bacterial infections (his ears, her urinary track) they were robust, hale, hearty and relatively trouble free until they each reached an abrupt end. They were fabulous dogs and were sorely missed. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I just have a problem with the statement "Gigantism in dogs is generally a fatal disease". While I agree that gigantism (in probably any species) can cause premature death, it is incorrect to suggest that a Giant dog automatically has gigantism. That is like claiming that an entire population of tall people, eg: Maasai, have gigantism or that a Pgymy is a dwarf. Gigantism is usually caused by a tumour on the pituatary gland, which is not a condition that the average leonberger has. Giant dogs are just large dogs, as stated in the opening paragraph of the leonberger page. The term "giant" is unofficial and simply refers to their extra-large size ... a size which incidentally, is similar to the grey wolf from which they, and all domestic dogs, have evolved. Just like some human races are taller than others, also some human races have a longer life expectancy than others, a statistic that is partly environmental, partly genetic and constantly evolving; dog breeds are the same. The average life expectancy for leonbergers is shorter than for say pomeranians, but there are individuals that buck the trend. 60.234.229.163 (talk) 10:11, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear that. Still, I don't believe just being of large size causes a dog to live a short life (or with as many illnesses as is described in this article) I know of other large breeds being short lived, like the Irish Wolf Dog, Great Dane, Saint Bernard and Bernese Mountain Dog. But if that is just because of their size? No, there are other large dogs that can reach pretty lengthy lives without many health issues. Truth be told, those dogs aren't very popular/well known, that may have something to do with it.

Anyway, I still think something should be said in that first sentence I mentioned above. Like:

"Leonbergers are strong, generally healthy dogs, though the breed does have a number of (serious) diseases individual dogs may suffer from."

Or is it enough that all this is mentioned below, like it is now? Though that does feel weird to me. First reading the breed is generally healthy, then reading there are many serious diseases affecting it. Avietar (talk) 12:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I knew that shortened life spans were likely. It was a sad part of the deal we made with the devil, and I never regretted having the dogs. They were great guardian dogs, water rescue dogs, and therapy dogs. They were calm and unflappable, even when surrounded by a school bus full of children.

Genetics is part of this, FWIW, I think. Bringing breeds back from the edge of extinction -- there were very few that survived World War II -- left a very small gene pool and carried with it a set of problems. Some of those breed stock individuals had genetic problems. This is a problem that affects a lot of breeds. You might change "many" to "some". It's a question of emphasis. FWIW, I think that average life spans on Irish Wolf Hounds are 4 to 6 years (I thought about getting one at one point and researched it), and Bernese Mountain Dogs (had one) is 6 to 8 years. And the Berner is a much smaller dog. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:20, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I came across that information some time ago (about the gene pool). I feel you've found a good solution, changing the 'many' to 'some'. Unbelievable how much of a difference just one word can make. Avietar (talk) 16:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

It should be noted that all breeds of dogs suffer from genetic or otherwise health issues. A comprehensive university study of dog illnesses by breed is listed in appendix 13. Leonbergers rate as a breed with less health issues than most other breeds. Hence the original statement that they are a generally healthy breed. To say that "the breed does have a number of (serious) diseases..." is to imply that the breed is inherently faulty and is therefore misleading. Life span is a different matter entirely. The original sentence correctly implies that during their life they generally have less health issues than most other breeds. --60.234.229.163 (talk) 23:12, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Life span

I know of a Leonberger who is 14 years old and still alive and another that is 12 in the same household (not related to each other). Is it relevant to add an upper life expectancy, or is it best to stick to medium? 7 years does seem a little on the light side, Madeline Lusby claims 10-11 years on page 115 of her book. I'm not sure if it is truth or myth that breeding dogs live a shorter life than pets, but if anyone could confirm that from a reliable source, it might suggest that statistics for average life span are artificially low. Can this be changed to lifespan of 7-14 years?60.234.229.163 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:54, 7 November 2011 (UTC).

Your anecdotal observations are true of some individual dogs. But they are outside the norm. If you have a WP:RS for your observations, you are encouraged to make an appropriate change. On the other hand, it is understood that individual animals may die sooner or later than the average. Like the weight loss advertisements would say, "Your results may vary." I'm not sure that does anything but state the obvious. For what it's worth, my oair of Leonbergers (brother and sister) lasted 8 ½ (male) and 9 ½ years. Fabulous dogs, but not for everyone. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:55, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

User box Leonberger

Just created this. Someone might want to use it on their userpage or talk page

This user is owned by a Leonberger.

7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:49, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Leonberger Polyneuropathy

I have tried to save the citation and this url examiner.com/article/important-research-for-leonberger-dogs-inherited-polyneuropathy-ipn which apparently is on the black list. I eliminated the "http://www" from the link, so that I can save this, and show you where I found it. I request that this link be permitted. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 01:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Please make your request for blacklist removal here: MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#Proposed removals. -- Patchy1 01:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 01:49, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Used an alternate source per their suggestion. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 03:23, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Wimble-wamble in description

The description under the heading "Appearance" is full of wimble-wamble, weasel words and other nonsense. To wit: "The Leonberger is a large, muscular, and elegant dog with balanced body type, medium temperament, and dramatic presence. The head is held proudly, adorned with a striking black mask, and projects the breed's distinct expression of intelligence, pride, and kindliness. Remaining true to their early roots as a capable family and working dog and search and rescue dog (particularly water), the surprisingly agile Leonberger is sound and coordinated, with both strength in bearing and elegance in movement. A dimorphic breed, the Leonberger possesses either a strongly masculine or elegantly feminine form, making gender immediately discernible. When properly trained and socialized, the Leonberger is vigilant, loyal, and confident in all situations. Robust, adaptable, obedient, intelligent, playful, and kindly, the Leonberger is an appropriate family companion for modern living conditions." Sorry, but an entire breed of dog cannot objectively be declared to be "elegant", "balanced", "kindly", "proud", "sound" or "confident"; that's nothing but anthropomorphizing. And "dramatic presence", "medium temperament", "balanced body" and the like aren't encyclopedic descriptions; they're poetic fluff. Finally, declaring a 150-pound dog "appropriate for modern living conditions" is just laughably ridiculous. "Modern living conditions" are increasingly urban and increasingly short on space; hardly ideal for a huge dog. WP is not the place to make sweeping, hyperbolic claims about a breed's supposed qualities. The entire article needs to be shorn of such claims and left only with statements that are objective and verifiable. Bricology (talk) 10:55, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with the above entirely. While this may be your personal opinion, the descriptions of the leonberger as they currently stand are consistent with the usual wording in the breed descriptions held by most major kennel clubs. They are legitimate words, the kind that are commonly used in showing and breeding circles. For example, those that know the breed intimately know exactly what is meant by "elegant". Yes, this extra large breed is elegant in both its gait and its conformation. If you compared a leonberger to say a St Bernard, one would say that the leonberger has a certain elegance that the other breed does not. It has to do, amongst other things, with their more athletic hind quarters, their gait, their tidy jowls and their ability to move in tight spaces without knocking things over. The leonberger is no bull in a china shop. Obviously there are poorly maintained or bred examples that buck the trend, but a Wikipedia article should reflect the norm not the occasional exceptions. I won't go over every word you criticised, but I will also mention the comment about modern living. First and foremost a country dog, a single leonberger does adapt to city living beautifully. With so many traits taken from newfoundlands who are expected to cope in tight quarters on fishing boats, the leonberger also can manage tight quarters and can back themselves out from one-way dead-ends quite neatly. I would not recommend apartment living for any breed, except maybe the most miniature toy dogs. But not all city living is in apartments. For city living where a small garden is accessible, they do beautifully, especially since they are not a noisy dog. The proof is simply in the thousands of leonbergers that currently live successfully in cities around the world. My only caveats are that the leonberger should never be left at home alone on a daily basis and benefits from at minimum an occasional romp in the wilderness. But on a daily basis, walking a city street is adequate and the leonberger actually revels in meeting other breeds and people along the way. They cope extremely well in heavy crowds and I would go as far as to say that I have never witnessed another breed who is as bullet-proof in a crowd as a well-trained leonberger. Keeping multiple leonbergers on the same property in the city is not a good idea, because they will compete with each other and play rough. A leonberger, while athletic when exercising is content to just sit the day out in the company of its people. A leonberger on a farm with access to plenty of space will choose to spend his day inside with his people or at their side as they go about their work. Perhaps they get this instinct from their Pyrenees heritage where the Pyrenees would go out with the flock and then spend the day just sitting amongst them, always alert but saving their energy. I personally keep up to date with at least a dozen leonbergers at all ages and stages and have spent nearly the last 15 years observing many more. It has been a while since I have visited this page, and in the meantime I see many alterations have been made. I think the page as it stands currently is very good. 203.118.157.84 (talk) 22:29, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Further and more to the point, if an encyclopedia is not allowed to use descriptive words, then how can it confidently describe a subject? Bricology's war on descriptive words, largely adjectives and modified nouns listed above, says nothing for the English language's ability to have more than one meaning for a word, a language where context is everything. A word that may seem flowery in a poem may be scientific in biology. If Wikipedia wants to ban certain adjectives, then who is to be the judge and jury over what is permissible and what isn't? Surely, the Wikipedia sub-community that decides these things should at least have an extensive knowledge in the subject matter being described: in this case standardised descriptions of the leonberger dog. If that Wikipedian had such knowledge then he'd be aware that most of those words are standard in the world of animal breeding and showing. The only solid material available for an article of this sort to draw on is the few internationally-accepted books on leonbergers, published information from the International Assn of Leonberger Dog and its member clubs including the breed standards, and the occasional and sometimes flimsy articles in scientific/industry journals. The words the author/s used in the leonberger page seem to me to be drawn from all of these. 203.118.157.84 (talk) 23:54, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with 203.118.157.84's observations. These words are in the WP:RSS. 13:08, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

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Article might benefit from a photo with a human

... just to help illustrate its size, FWIW. I was surprised that the article Giant dog breed, to which the lede wikilinks, lacks such a photo as well. --Middle 8 (t • c | privacy • COI) 05:07, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Whole section on "Luna" seems out of place

Doesn't look like it belongs in an encyclopedia -- poorly written and overly-specific. Not sure how much of it should be torn out, as the gene names might be worth saving. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.156.194 (talk) 14:53, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks, I have removed it as it is not in the reference given; LPN is briefly covered in the paragraph that followed it. SagaciousPhil - Chat 08:31, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

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Breed age is wrong

"At least as early as 1585, the royal household of Austrian Prince Franz Metternich, of Wolfberg, father of Prince Metternich, owned dogs of the same description.[24]"

I don't have access to the book referenced, so cannot check it, but Prince Metternich was born in the 1770's. If his father was alive in 1585, it marks a true miracle of longevity. Futuraprime (talk) 14:48, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Futuraprime. I can see the ref used and it states: "The late Professor von Schulmuth researched various family journals and discovered that the breed was known as early as 1585, and probably even earlier. The family of Prince Metternich lived near Wolfberg and their private records dated 1601 state that a Leonberger-type dog was kept on the estate to ward off sheep and cattle thieves." I've tried to tweak the sentence in the article, so please see if the change is a bit better. SagaciousPhil - Chat 16:05, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Leonbergers are not livestock guardian dogs

The Leonberger was bred to be a pet only, it is not a working dog. All entries in conflict with that should be removed. IQ125 (talk) 18:00, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

The article has WP:RS that disagree with you. WP:Truth is not the issue. It is WP:Verifiability. It is a big world out there; and Your mileage may vary. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:32, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

I note that IQ125 was blocked as a WP:sock puppet. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:49, 10 September 2021 (UTC)