Talk:Les Légions Noires

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Untitled[edit]

Almost all of this is rumor. Absolutely needs to be erased or at least cut down to a few paragraphs. There's no denying the subjectivity and personal bias that exists throughout!

hi. a lot of the bands metnioned in the list at the bottom are meely rumoured to exist and demos of theirs have not surfaced in hard-copy or mp3 form. if anyone is very familiar with the Les legions noire and knows for sure that music of a certain band has not surfaced, please delete them from the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.31.219.80 (talk • contribs) 10:31, March 8, 2006

The biggest problem with this article is that "Les Legions Noires" is spelled incorrectly in the title, so searching for it doesn't work properly.

The "Street Metal Forum" is now closed, if it does not open up in a few days, it will be removed for good (or until it opens) Empyriumlover 19:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is another band called Chambre Noir which has been supposedly been confirmed as an official band.

List of bands[edit]

...is ridiculously long. Wikipedia is not a repository for unsourced information about non-notable groups. Almost all of the bands do not have articles, presumably because almost nothing is known about them and as such, they have no place in an encyclopedia. I'm removing all of the redlinks. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:24, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Improving the article[edit]

Given that it looks likely that the article will survive AfD (and I've come round to the point of view that this is reasonable if given a sensible re-write - thank you to User:Chubbles for his work on this so far), we need to look at what we can do to make this a decent looking article. Sources are going to be difficult if not impossible to find, but I recommend a step-by-step, even line-by-line, approach to improvement. So to start with the lead... I think a reasonable first question is to define whether the Black Legions actually refers to the bands / projects involved, or to the members themselves. I am comparing this to circles like the Norwegian Black Metal Mafia or "Inner Circle" and the Swedish True Satanist Horde. A brief mention of the Black Legions occurs in Terrorizer's Black Metal Special, in its overview of the French scene, in which it suggests they were directly influenced by the Inner Circle (p.38, #128, written by Guy Strachan): "But sadly, the only way most proud French BM warriors found to get some recognition abroad was to use the genre's worst habits. A bunch of corpsepainted characters, rumoured to be drawn from such acts as Mutiilation, Torgeist and Vlad Tepes named themselves the 'Black Legions' as a tribute to the so-called 'Black Mafia' Norwegian BM heroes Darkthrone and Burzum, who were supposedly ready to terrorize innocent Christians a couple of years before. Even though it didn't go any further, the gentlemen of the Black Legions devoted their energy to a war of words that is still talked about today. They sent death threats to Anchoiade [umlaut on the 'i'] for not being true enough and presents like dead rats to French death metal, or as they called it, "life metal" outfits like Crusher." The article then moves on to talk about French NSBM; the section on French underground BM in Lords Of Chaos similarly talks exclusively about NSBM, with (unfortunately) no mention of the Black Legions.

Also, potentially of interest (and may provide a reference for LLN influence), later in the same issue (p.44; written by Nathan T. Birk)), when talking about the current black metal underground: "One should never count out France, primarily as the home of the inscrutably influential Black Legions of ridiculous rawness during the mid-90s [...]It gets even crazier with such grim and weird nutters as Nuit Noire, Svest, Spektr, Arkham and Diapsiquir injecting some defiant art into that Black legions archetype." I hope some of this is useful; I'll keep trying to dig out more reliable sources, as in this case I really feel the rumour-mill online cannot be regarded as reliable. Even the usually decent Metal Archives has been infected with rumours that couldn't be used under WP:BLP, e.g. regarding Meyhna'ch's expulsion due to drug use and the like. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 02:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A suggestion: a rare "public" interview with an LLN band back from when the cirle was active exists in Unhallowed zine Issue 2 (ironically - its cover featured in Lords of Chaos, but there is no mention of LLN). The band in question is Vlad Tepes, whose demo the creator of the zine released on his label Full Moon Productions. If somebody could locate a copy and scan it - this will probably be quite a useful.

LLN themselves are hugely influential. I can think of at least 3 "circles" here in Australia that have consciously tried to emulate the ethos and in some cases the very sound.(VragMoj) —Preceding undated comment was added at 03:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why not simply use the only legitimate sources, i.e. interviews with LLN members and the Black Plague zine? You get a sizable amount of information from the Black Plague zine on its own, and you don't have to make baseless assumptions like the bloke who wrote that Terrorizer article, who seems to have missed the point that the LLN weren't after "recognition" in the slightest, and that we only have any of their releases beyond the Vlad Tepes demo, the Muetiilation and Torgeist albums, and the March to the Black Holocaust split, because Beleth'Rim [of Torgeist and then Vermeth] stole all of the masters of their demos and sold them to record labels without the bands' or the circle's consent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.203.167 (talk) 16:51, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Go read WP:RS and WP:OR. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:52, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of bands, March 2008[edit]

An anonymous user reverted the list of bands to include all of those for which we have no evidence of existence (i.e. a Google search hit this page and others that are C&P from this page). I have as such removed them again. If a source can be found for any of them, we could consider reinstating them, but to be honest if they don't even have a Metal Archives page you're going to be struggling, and I hesitate to call that a reliable source anyway (though all bands with such pages are already listed in the current version of the article). Blackmetalbaz (talk) 09:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

LLN project matrix[edit]

In order to have a more clear overview of WHO is involved in WHICH project, i designed the following table that you find temporarily on my user page: User:Irina666#LLN_project_matrix. Should I integrate it in the article? The sources come mainly from metal-archive. I took only the projects who have releases listed on that site (that eliminates a few that are currently listed in this article). Please comment, and don't hesitate to improve it... Irina666 (talk) 00:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

the table is now integrated in the article, so apply any modifications directly there (in place of the "bands and projects" list) Irina666 (talk) 17:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Celestia reference[edit]

...is worthless as a source. Aside from the fact that it's not currently being used to confirm any of the contentious facts in the article, it's not clear if the character being interviewed was part of the LLN in the first place; he may be, in which case it can probably be correctly incorporated into the article, but if he isn't (which bands was he playing with?) then it can't. Either way, it's a terrible source owing to the LLN being trivially mentioned. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Second ref may be decent; my German isn't good enough and I'm not familiar with the site... is it a self-published source? If so, kill it with fire. Interviews (with relevant people!) are fine, of course. Either way, the refs need integrating into the article, not just tacked on the end. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that some of this references only marginally mention the LLN, but I thought that this is better than nothing -- until now there were no references at all. The point of the Celestia interviews is that frontman "Noktu" is/was the main publisher of the LLN through his Drakkar label (to which Tragic Empire Records seems to be inofficially linked...). Therefore he should be considered an interesting source of information, as he had private contact with the LLN members. I agree the Celtmik Mag interview is rather trivial as there is only one sentence about the LLN, but I think it's interesting enough to be used as a footnote when rewriting the article. The French interview on GutsOfDarkness is a more valuable reference, since Noktu describes how he founded the Drakkar label in order to publish the LLN material. Also the interviewer mentions the "legendary status" that the LLN publications have aquired 10 years later. The German article on Metal1.info offers a global overview of the LLNs history and in-depth description of the different projects and their musical spectrum. The article is well written and Metal1.info appears to have an editorial board, so I believe it qualifies as an acceptable source. The article on ChroniclesOfChaos is interesting insofar that it mentions the LLN as "the most significant scene" to emerge after the second wave of Norwegian black metal. Irina666 (talk) 21:44, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are also various Terrorizer references in the section "Improving the article" above; I'm afraid I don't have time to properly integrate them at the mo, though... Blackmetalbaz (talk) 22:13, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Towards the bottom of this thread, there appears to be a Vlad Tepes fanzine interview: [1]. Edit: Oh, it's the fanzine published by the LLN itself; rest of it here: [2]. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 22:20, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So...a Terrorizer article, a decent German article, some stuff on Chronicles of Chaos, isn't that enough to remove the reference and notability tags? I think they don't look good on this page. Drmies (talk) 04:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vermeth - does it count as LLN?[edit]

So, since some anonymous users are undoing my edit, let's discuss this here rather than engaging a senseless edit war. Question: should Vermeth be listed as one of the LLN projects? Arguments for inclusion:

  1. it is a solo-project by Beleth'Rim, member of LLN band Torgeist, also leading the Amaka Hahina side-project.
  2. the music on the two Vermeth albums is very close to Torgeist's style, it's published by LLN-homebase Drakkar Productions, and the Drakkar website describes it as "a new manifestation of the Black Legions anti-human spirit".
  3. The Vermeth logo is clearly designed similarly to the Torgeist logo.

Arguments against:

  1. the project started publications in 2001 only.
  2. the cover art of the albums esthetically differs from the LLN symbolism.

I would also add that following this logic we should also remove Amaka Hahina from the list (also active only since 2001) -- BUT Amaka Hahina is featured in the 1995 LLN fanzine "The Black Plague"... Does this make sense? Having an inclusionist mindset I would rather keep Vermeth in the band list, but I won't enforce this issue if other editors oppose .... --Irina666 (talk) 16:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unless LLN specifically states that Vermeth is part of them, then I would not consider it. Being related to Torgeist isn't enough for me. Undead Warrior (talk) 23:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need a specific reference from a reliable source stating that Vermeth is part of the LLN. Two things: this should apply to every band on the list, and the reliable source does not necessarily have to be from the LLN themselves, as we are relying on verifiability not "truth". This article has always been problematic on this front, as the LLN refuses to speak to print magazines, by and large, and webzines can never be reliable sources. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 09:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, fine. Then let's wait until Olivier Assayas makes a documentary film about the LLN :) Irina666 (talk) 17:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sonic Youth + LLN[edit]

Ha, would you believe that: Sonic Youth vocalist/guitarist Thurston Moore listens to the LLN, "especially Mütiilation and Torgeist". read the interview here. --Irina666 (talk) 21:04, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, he's even in a Black Metal band with some other American BM musicians called Twilight. But what exactly does this have to do with the article? 99.54.188.176 (talk) 05:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Moevot[edit]

Moëvöt 7 demos Actualy, they have only 2 demos released, can somebody change this?83.28.109.40 (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On the Topic of Dzlvarv/Ozlvarv[edit]

I believe that Dzlvarv is actually called "Ozlvarv". Apparently this has been in discussion for a while in the metal community, but there's some evidence I found that seems solid. Ozlvarv's logo looks like this. There's another group called Dapnom that released an album called "0", and a picture of it is here. Notice how the resemblance between Ozlvarv's logo and Dapnom's album title is uncanny. Considering the name of Dapnom's release, the supposed "d" in "Dzlvarv" is actually an "o" in "Ozlvarv". Of course, since the two names are both widely used, there should be a note that Ozlvarv is often mistaken as Dzlvarv. 2601:643:4301:F4E0:C1C2:25D2:5B12:A888 (talk) 02:00, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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