Talk:Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas

Organizations

The Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas has two non-profit organizations. It benefits this article to include the purpose of each of the tribe's non-profits and their board of directors. The purpose and board of each non-profit is listed in the by-laws of each of these organizations, by-laws which are posted on the tribe's website. But when I added the purpose of each of the by-laws, they were removed and WP:PROMO and WP:SELF-PUBLISHING was used as the reason for doing this. WP allows for citing an entity's own website as long as it does not involve advocacy, propaganda, recruitment, opinion piece, scandalmongering, self-promotion, advertising, marketing, publicity, or public relations. WP even states that there are exemptions that allow for using self-published source and quite a few WP pages include the page topic's own website such as National Congress of American Indians. The purpose and board of directors of each of the tribe's non-profits is not self-promoting information. It adds clarity to the article. TelGonzie (talk) 07:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC) I invite @Yuchitown to this discussion.--TelGonzie (talk) 13:36, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The National Congress of American Indians is a terrible example to share; that article is a trainwreck that is flagged for inadequate references. The NCAI's website should not be used as a citation there, and this LATT's website should not be used it. It is WP:SELF-PUBLISHED. Use the secondary, WP:published sources, since many are readily available; several are already cited and can be used to cite further info.

Besides the promo/PR/advocacy problem, there's also the issue of notability. If no one else has published about a particular facet of the organization, then perhaps it doesn't need to be included in the article. The two nonprofits are listed, and the cemetery is listed, and all are cited with disinterested, third-party sources. Then the LATT's website appears in the appropriate places (infobox and external links), so anyone curious to read directly from them can easily do so. Yuchitown (talk) 20:51, 6 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

WP allows for citing a entity's own website as long as it does not involve advocacy, propaganda, recruitment, opinion piece, scandalmongering, self-promotion, advertising, marketing, publicity, or public relations. WP even states that there are exemptions that allow for using self-published source. Please point to how posting the purposes and the complete explanation of their board of directors of these non-profits of the Lipan Apache Tribe as listed in the by-laws are "advocacy, propaganda, recruitment, opinion piece, scandalmongering, self-promotion, advertising, marketing, publicity, or public relations." TelGonzie (talk) 20:58, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

"Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent, reliable sources." It's a last resort not a first resort, and, yes, it can be seen as advocacy, self-promotion, publicity, and public relations.

Also, of your 29 edits, 4 of them have been on this talk page. This is a bizarre trend. Yuchitown (talk) 02:35, 7 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Bylaws of nonprofit organizations that are registered with a state and sometimes with the IRS are not advocacy, self-promotion, publicity, and public relations. They are evidence of transparency to the public and will unlikely be found anywhere else than with the entity they belong to and will not be published in a different source. Since the state of Texas is responsible for governing and monitoring nonprofit organization, the nonprofit bylaws that are posted for the public cannot be advocacy, self-promotions, publicity, and public relations else the organization would get in trouble for misleading the public. So, can you point to where you see in the purposes and complete Board of Directors information that I posted from the bylaws of each of the tribe's nonprofits that seemed to you to be "advocacy, propaganda, recruitment, opinion piece, scandalmongering, self-promotion, advertising, marketing, publicity, or public relations"? TelGonzie (talk) 03:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

You aren't reading anything I'm writing. Yuchitown (talk) 17:20, 7 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

I am trying to discuss the exemptions to using self-published sources, see Wikipedia:Verifiability section "Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves". WP policy does say "Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent, reliable sources." but it includes exceptions. The bylaws would fit this exemption since bylaws are part of standards used by non-profits to demonstrate transparency, in this case the tribe's two non-profits registered with the state. As to NCAI as an example, the WP NCAI page uses information from the organizations' By-laws and Constitution posted on the ncai.org website as the source for the page's section on "Constitution". The section was added in 2009 and ncai.org as a reference for the section has not been questioned or debated since that time. This is an important example as it demonstrates the exemption to the self-publishing policy and the use of the Lipan tribe's two non-profit's bylaws posted on their website as WP acceptable sources. Posting the purpose of each non-profit improves the article by clarifying the differences between their goals. TelGonzie (talk) 19:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The NCAI article was a trainwreck; as mentioned before, it is flagged for needing references; it's not a example of what to do here. Not everything needs to be listed on Wikipedia. "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information." The purpose of the nonprofits are available in news sources, several of which are already on the article. Yuchitown (talk) 20:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown